NBA trade season

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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By noon Wednesday, the favors rumor will be in the past and we will have moved onto two or three other names to toss about for an hour or so before those fade away.
Ah yes, seems like only yesterday we were looking for information on the Carmello Anthony rumors...

*This is torture, Thursday afternoon can't come fast enough!*
 

E5 Yaz

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Ah yes, seems like only yesterday we were looking for information on the Carmello Anthony rumors...

*This is torture, Thursday afternoon can't come fast enough!*
Save yourself the torment: Expect nothing; that way, you can be surprised
 

ALiveH

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Crowder isn't just a throw-in. He's a very valuable asset because his contract is extremely attractive. I'd value him at around fringe-lottery pick or mid 1st rounder. AB + JC for Butler doesn't even necessarily make our team better this year. That might be a deal that makes more sense to do over the offseason. I would throw a protection on the 2017 BKN 1st (top-1 protected, turns into the 2018 BKN pick in the event the Cs win the lottery).
 

Eddie Jurak

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The thing is, trade Crowder now and you are essentially flushing this season down the toilet. He's an integral part of what they do and as a whole the team is very thin at the 3.

The off-season would be a different story.
 

nighthob

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The problem is that Butler is a well known troublemaker, the reason Crowder's a sticking point is that he's Butler's BFF. Boston, quite reasonably, needs him to make sure that Butler's transition into Boston's clubhouse is smooth.

Beyond that, on a practical level, they need Crowder's three point shooting with a streaky shooter like Butler on the floor. And I think they would like to end the Smurf experiment in the backcourt by moving Butler to the SG spot.
 

DJnVa

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On the WEEI app this morning there were 2 stories regarding the Celtics:

1--Bogut is contingent on getting a big name first.
2--Bogut is a fallback if they don't make another deal.

So, yeah.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I love Crowder but I think plugging in Jimmy Butler in his spot makes the team a lot better. Crowder is a great two way player but Butler is a top 5 two way player in this league.

Like I said I'd rather they trade AB with a pick or Brown but I don't think I'd let Crowder get in the way of a legitimate star player at the end of the day.
 

Montana Fan

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Any reason that Butler and Hayward couldn't coexist? I think the C's can afford both and 2017 isn't the year no matter what trade they make. If Crowder is traded I'd love to see a Butler, Smart, Hayward, Brown 2/3 rotation. That's if they are able to hold onto Brown.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I love Crowder but I think plugging in Jimmy Butler in his spot makes the team a lot better. Crowder is a great two way player but Butler is a top 5 two way player in this league.

Like I said I'd rather they trade AB with a pick or Brown but I don't think I'd let Crowder get in the way of a legitimate star player at the end of the day.
Makes sense in the offseason (when they can bring in another 3&D wing to fill Crowder's role or Jaylen can step up in year 2). If they do it now, in midseason, its going to lead to a lot of small, defensively-challenged lineups when Butler is on the bench.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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On the WEEI app this morning there were 2 stories regarding the Celtics:

1--Bogut is contingent on getting a big name first.
2--Bogut is a fallback if they don't make another deal.

So, yeah.
Ugh. I hope any Bogut deal is for pocket lint. He is cooked and cannot be depended upon to do anything other than take up space on the bench. The idea of him being Ainge's big deadline get is depressing.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Makes sense in the offseason (when they can bring in another 3&D wing to fill Crowder's role or Jaylen can step up in year 2). If they do it now, in midseason, its going to lead to a lot of small, defensively-challenged lineups when Butler is on the bench.
Maybe try to get Butler and then swing something for PJ Tucker? Just spitballing here.
 

Swedgin

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Any reason that Butler and Hayward couldn't coexist? I think the C's can afford both and 2017 isn't the year no matter what trade they make. If Crowder is traded I'd love to see a Butler, Smart, Hayward, Brown 2/3 rotation. That's if they are able to hold onto Brown.
I think IT and Butler meshing is a bigger concern given that both are relatively ball dominant. As to Hayward, a Butler deal would probably not leave Boston with adequate cap space to sign him because the Celtics would be including an expiring contract in the trade to make the numbers work.
 

67YAZ

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I love Crowder but I think plugging in Jimmy Butler in his spot makes the team a lot better. Crowder is a great two way player but Butler is a top 5 two way player in this league.

Like I said I'd rather they trade AB with a pick or Brown but I don't think I'd let Crowder get in the way of a legitimate star player at the end of the day.
From the outside, it looks like Reinsdorf wants to keep Butler while Forman & Paxson want to move him. The only way Butler gets traded is if Forman & Paxson can sell this as a quick turnaround, not a rebuild. So a AB+JC+2017 BKN gives the 2017-2018 Bulls 2 starters and a high-end rookie plus their own lottery pick, cap space for a max contract, Wade (assuming he picks up player option), and enough other pieces to fill out the roster. This allows Forman/Paxson to argue that they drop out of this year's playoffs, but will be back in next season with a much stronger long-term outlook.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Makes sense in the offseason (when they can bring in another 3&D wing to fill Crowder's role or Jaylen can step up in year 2). If they do it now, in midseason, its going to lead to a lot of small, defensively-challenged lineups when Butler is on the bench.
If the Cs give up Crowder, there are going to be lineup problems even when Butler is playing because I'm assuming that Butler is playing a lot of 3 - so the Cs are getting even smaller. Plus, even if Butler plays the 3, one of AB or Smart is going to have sit in crunch time.

Not to mention that Butler's .330-ish percent 3P shooting doesn't necessarily open up the court very much.

I sure hope DA doesn't give up the 2018 Nets pick for Butler.
 

Nator

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Butler is a well known troublemaker??
Well, he has been openly defiant of Fred Hoiberg, (who is a giant pud), but the fact he seems to take it public is kind of an issue to me.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-fred-hoiberg-timeout-call-20170126-story.html

After Howard split two free throws for a 112-110 lead, Nikola Mirotic began to signal for a timeout. But Butler called for Mirotic to throw him the inbounds pass, dribbled down and banked in a pull-up jumper with 44.3 seconds left to tie the game.

Hoiberg fielded a question about the exchange and whether he wanted a timeout after the game.

"No, we were going to get it, go down and save that last timeout," Hoiberg said.

The Bulls ultimately used timeouts with 34 seconds left after a team-wide defensive breakdown allowed a Howard alley-oop dunk from Kent Bazemore and with 10 seconds left.

The Bulls took Thursday off. Near the end of last season, Hoiberg addressed his need to improve on holding players accountable. This incident could be another test.
Honestly, the root cause of the Bulls problems are John Paxson and Gar Foreman, and their horrible approach to drafting and team building. I get that Butler would have an issue with his current situation, but I think there is room for concern with the way he goes about handling it. There are some other stories from the last few seasons where he has been critical of Hoiberg.

Maybe a change of scenery is just what he needs, especially to a team that could seriously contend for a title with him on the roster. I'd just want to be sure that potentially sacrificing some stats for the greater good won't be a problem for him in Boston.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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If the Cs give up Crowder, there are going to be lineup problems even when Butler is playing because I'm assuming that Butler is playing a lot of 3 - so the Cs are getting even smaller. Plus, even if Butler plays the 3, one of AB or Smart is going to have sit in crunch time.

Not to mention that Butler's .330-ish percent 3P shooting doesn't necessarily open up the court very much.

I sure hope DA doesn't give up the 2018 Nets pick for Butler.
Butler is an inch taller than Crowder but your point is valid. The more I think about it the more I agree that I'd rather not see Crowder go for Butler. I'd make a godfather offer to Indy and include Crowder but probably not for Butler. The difference between PG and JB in 3pt shooting is really significant on this team.
 

chilidawg

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Butler is an inch taller than Crowder but your point is valid. The more I think about it the more I agree that I'd rather not see Crowder go for Butler. I'd make a godfather offer to Indy and include Crowder but probably not for Butler. The difference between PG and JB in 3pt shooting is really significant on this team.
If you're getting George primarily because of his 3 point shooting, wouldn't you be better off just sticking with Crowder?
 

ifmanis5

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Want no part of Melo. He and IT will probably fist fight after the first game when Melo keeps chucking terrible threes in the 4th qtr.
 

CreedBratton

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This would be the last thing I'd want the Celtics to do. Even if the asset cost is low, the salary cap hits of Anthony would take them completely out of the running for any FA's or potential trade candidates in the summer.
Not sure what that says above cause on iPhone but I'd do melo regardless if cost is low. The only FA I would want are Hayward and Griffin and I can't see either leaving but it's nice to pitch them in the summer of course.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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If you're getting George primarily because of his 3 point shooting, wouldn't you be better off just sticking with Crowder?
That wasn't my point if I wasn't being clear. I was more just saying that PG is a more valuable player to the Celtics than JB due to his better 3pt shooting. I think George is a better player than Butler and would be willing to offer more.
 

Cellar-Door

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If you're getting George primarily because of his 3 point shooting, wouldn't you be better off just sticking with Crowder?
No because you're getting PAUL FUCKING GEORGE!, I think the point was that George and Butler are both top 20 players in the league, but George might be a better system fit because of his shooting.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If the Cs give up Crowder, there are going to be lineup problems even when Butler is playing because I'm assuming that Butler is playing a lot of 3 - so the Cs are getting even smaller. Plus, even if Butler plays the 3, one of AB or Smart is going to have sit in crunch time.

Not to mention that Butler's .330-ish percent 3P shooting doesn't necessarily open up the court very much.

I sure hope DA doesn't give up the 2018 Nets pick for Butler.
I think Butler at the 2 with Crowder at the 3 is far better a lineup than anything the Celtics could do with Butler at the 3.
 

chilidawg

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No because you're getting PAUL FUCKING GEORGE!, I think the point was that George and Butler are both top 20 players in the league, but George might be a better system fit because of his shooting.
I get that, but if you're prioritizing 3 point shooting, then you're saying that spacing the floor is a primary concern. That seems to me to limit the playmaking opportunities for someone like George, and make spot up shooting a bigger part of the game, something Crowder already does quite well. You could argue that George is better defensively and rebounding, but I don't think that difference is worth it for the prices we're talking about.
 

BaseballJones

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Crowder is a really interesting player, IMO. He's just a solid, solid NBA player who helps the Celtics in so many ways. But he's not a star, and the Celtics probably need another star if they want to make it to the next level.

Unfortunately, the price to pay for said star is going to be enormous. And because Crowder is a solid player (not a potentially future solid player), the actual difference between a star and Crowder isn't going to be that large. Maybe not large enough to justify making the deal. But if you don't make the deal, Crowder probably isn't good enough to get you to that next level.

The question is: Might it be worth it to pay the expensive price for that difference between Crowder and Butler, or Crowder and George? The C's are flush with young players, even having guys stashed in Europe. Might it be worth it?
 

Cellar-Door

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I get that, but if you're prioritizing 3 point shooting, then you're saying that spacing the floor is a primary concern. That seems to me to limit the playmaking opportunities for someone like George, and make spot up shooting a bigger part of the game, something Crowder already does quite well. You could argue that George is better defensively and rebounding, but I don't think that difference is worth it for the prices we're talking about.
I think you're missing what 3 point range does for a playmaker. It changes the whole spacing on the floor, especially when you have 2 guys who can create. So George as an example, can do everything that Butler does, and be your top guy on offense, BUT when IT has the ball he is such a good shooter that his man has to stick closer than Butler's would for fear of the kickout, this also sets up the re-drive. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you use George as just a spot-up shooter, but rather that his ABILITY to shoot 3s makes the whole offense better and harder to defend. The top teams are great examples of this, Kyrie, Love, Durant, Curry. All those guys are much more than spot-up shooters, but their ability to hit 3s stretches defenses when they don't have the ball.
Edit- when a primary scorer isn't a real 3 threat teams sag off inside the line on him, because they want him taking that shot instead of driving, and when he doesn't have the ball they want to close up space in the paint, it makes the defense as a whole quicker to react to penetration, makes switches easier etc. If that guy is a 38% shooter from deep, well then you have to stick on him or he'll kill you with that shot, makes it easier for him to get into the lane on drives, makes it harder to switch and double if someone else is driving, can't double off him etc. If as the Celtics try to do at times, you have 5 guys who can all shoot 3s, well it makes doubling very dangerous.
 

cheech13

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Stein tweeting that Rockets want Iman Shumpert but that it may cost them Patrick Beverly. That's a home run deal for Cleveland if they can swing it.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I'm pretty ambivalent on Crowder. The three point improvement has been awesome (team-wide improvement + shedding ET and Sully have been huge here) but he's otherwise very limited on O—doesn't attack the rim or make plays at all. Helpful to have but certainly not a deal breaker unless you really need a Butler babysitter, in which case you probably shouldn't be acquiring Butler in the first place.
 

67YAZ

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If you're getting George primarily because of his 3 point shooting, wouldn't you be better off just sticking with Crowder?
It seems like the Pacers moving George indicates a total rebuild on their part with Myles Turner as the building block. They're going to ask for a different package than the Bulls. If a deal gets made, Butler would walk into a different Celtics team than George.

Rumors have the Bulls looking at Butler for Bradley + Crowder + 2017 BKN. With enough cap space for a max deal this summer and Wade likely returning, Forman/Paxson can argue that this creates a quick turn around with a return to the playoffs in 2017-2018 and a brighter future.

I'd expect the Pacers to ask after Brown + Amir Johnson + 2017 BKN for George in order to provide 2 high upside players alongside Turner. As group, they'd start maturing and push for the playoffs in 2-3 years pending other moves Bird can swing.
 

Jeff Van GULLY

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Sam Amick says the following about Paul George and the Lakers:

George will be a free agent in the summer of 2018, and it’s no secret that the 26-year-old Palmdale, Calif. native would love nothing more than to sign with his hometown Lakers if the future is bleak in Indiana. The fact that the Lakers are in the process of trying to land George right now, with new lead executive Magic Johnson moving fast to fill that superstar hole that Kobe Bryant left behind, only makes these next two days all the more compelling.
I imagine Magic is offering up at least Ingram and a first as we speak. Not sure Brown+Nets 1st beats that.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Bogdanovich is godawful aside from his random hot shooting nights, getting even a late first for him is pretty nice for Brooklyn. It also happens to be very nice for us because it means at least two roster slots will be going to rookies next season, possibly more if they're able to move Lopez. The more time they spend on developing guys, the more games they will lose in the short term.

A little sad to see McCullough going out in that trade, he's still really raw and would have contributed to many many losses as a Net.