NBA Playoffs Game Thread

jon abbey

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Jordan got a ton of hate until he started winning so many titles and it was hard to say anything bad about him anymore, everyone loves to try to poke holes in the Chosen One when they feel they've been anointed prematurely. I don't totally get not being in constant awe that we are blessed to see someone with such unique talents as LBJ (Did he guard all five positions tonight at different times? He was definitely the defensive 5 at times, and he took Teague down the stretch.), but again, it was the same way with Jordan for a big chunk of his career. 
 
That outburst where he didn't go back on defense tonight was pretty extreme, and I don't remember other NBA superstars cramping in huge games like he has twice now, but I'm also not sure anyone has put out a physical effort in an OT playoff game like that before. He had so little help in so many ways for most of the game, and while admittedly ATL was down two key starters with a third hobbled, it was still an insanely impressive effort. They said on one of the recap shows that he had a chance at 20 rebounds over the course of the game, and he got 18 of those. I mean, wow. 
 

Devizier

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People need to stop being so butthurt about Lebron. This isn't 2008 anymore. That said, I cannot believe the Hawks gagged that one up.
 

mauf

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Nick Kaufman said:
The Hawks had made it a game with a good chance of winning it and making it a series and the refs gift the Cavs Horford's ejection. That's just infuriating.
Have the refs been letting cheap shots like this go? I didn't think it was a close call, but I don't watch as many games as some of the regulars here, so maybe my sense of where the line is drawn is off.

I'm kind of surprised this isn't getting more postgame attention here, as in retrospect the flagrant call was the game's pivotal play; there's little doubt Atlanta finds a way to win with Horford playing.
 

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maufman said:
Have the refs been letting cheap shots like this go? I didn't think it was a close call, but I don't watch as many games as some of the regulars here, so maybe my sense of where the line is drawn is off.

I'm kind of surprised this isn't getting more postgame attention here, as in retrospect the flagrant call was the game's pivotal play; there's little doubt Atlanta finds a way to win with Horford playing.
Horford's action clearly crossed the line between a 1 and a 2. It's wasn't necessary and it was excessive, there was a swinging motion, hard contact and a follow through. Had Kenny Mauer allowed Horford to remain in the game it would have been a travesty of the interpretation of the rules.

In the heat of the moment without the replay an official can be subjective and allow a play on for the good of the game IF he isn't absolutely certain Horford completed all of the above listed actions. Once the replay come into play your credibility is at stake and these officials take great pride in their grade (each official is scored each game as well) Mauer had no other choice.

I felt the officiating in this particular game was excellent. They flat out killed it last night.

Flagrant Fouls: These fouls are considered unnecessary and/or excessive. There are two types of flagrant fouls, 1 and 2. A flagrant 1 is unnecessary contact. This is usually when a defensive player swings and makes hard contact with the offensive player or makes hard contact and then follows through. A flagrant foul 2 is unnecessary and excessive contact. This usually has a swinging motion, hard contact, and a follow through.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Additionally, the constant self-praise and the attempts to play up his "warrior" and "leader" status knows no bounds. He has become a caricature of himself.
Curious - how would you like him to handle this? This guy has was anointed as the "Chosen One" from something like 6th grade, and for the last twenty-odd years, I'm sure this has been reinforced in him daily, if not hourly (except for losing in the finals multiple times).

I think LBJ does take the effort to deflect a bit of the spotlight onto his teammates but at the end of the day, he knows it's his guys/his team/his franchise/his city so it seems to me that any thing else he would say would really ring false.

Plus, part of the issue - for him and all of the megastars who are the face of the game - is that we see and hear him all of the time. We'd probably think better of him if we didn't hear about LBJ 1000 times before, after, and during each playoff game, but unfortunately that's not going to change.
 

jon abbey

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maufman said:
I'm kind of surprised this isn't getting more postgame attention here, as in retrospect the flagrant call was the game's pivotal play; there's little doubt Atlanta finds a way to win with Horford playing.
 
Based on how the series has gone so far, I'd say there's little doubt they find a way to lose no matter who was playing.
 
In game 1, they had Horford, Korver, a healthy Carroll for most of the game, were at home, and still lost. If Horford doesn't get tossed, maybe Millsap doesn't step up, maybe Teague doesn't, Mack almost certainly never gets a chance, etc. 
 

lars10

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I think Horford's actions have to be seen in light of the Korver injury. It may be a total coincidence but Dellavedova seems to roll awkwardly into both his and Korvers knees. Also if you watch him off the ball he is constantly throwing an elbow into people's chests or grabbing or pushing..not enough to get called but def. enough to get under the skin to the point where Horford would want to take his frustration out. To me Dellavedova is a dirty player..enough so that I'd wonder if he was trying to injure Horford or at least doesn't care at all about Horford's knee.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, he reminds me of Patrick Beverley, who ended Russell Westbrook's season and OKC's hopes last year with a borderline play. Neither is exceptionally talented, both push the boundaries of what the rest of the league considers cheap shots. 
 

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It is really hard to judge how good LeBron has been this year, imo, because of just how god awful the East has been this year due to injuries and just an overall lack of competitive teams. 
 
I think it's really hard to judge how good LeBron is because of the absurd amount of preferential treatment he receives from the league and the refs.  You watch him drive to the hoop with his forearm extended, plowing through whoever is in his way, and there's no call.  "What a drive by LeBron James!!", bellows the sycophantic announcer.  I say to myself, geez, if Paul Pierce was allowed to do that, he'd put up the same kind of numbers.  We watch LeBron be the most physical guy on the floor, then you look up in the 4th quarter and he has zero fouls.  How do you reconcile that?  He is so protected by the officials that it's hard to tell how good he really is as a player.  If he were treated like just another guy, then we would finally tell how great he truly is.  
 
He has been empowered his entire career, with a sense of entitlement that he should go to the line EVERY time he doesn't make a basket.  On the defensive end, he's allowed to be as physical as he wants, but when he has the ball he cries for a whistle if someone has the temerity to try to guard him.  I'd like to know how good he really is, but it's impossible to tell because of the preferential treatment he's always received.  I think the league is actually doing him a disservice in this GOAT debate.
 

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JohnnyTheBone said:
 
I think it's really hard to judge how good LeBron is because of the absurd amount of preferential treatment he receives from the league and the refs.  You watch him drive to the hoop with his forearm extended, plowing through whoever is in his way, and there's no call.  "What a drive by LeBron James!!", bellows the sycophantic announcer.  I say to myself, geez, if Paul Pierce was allowed to do that, he'd put up the same kind of numbers.  We watch LeBron be the most physical guy on the floor, then you look up in the 4th quarter and he has zero fouls.  How do you reconcile that?  He is so protected by the officials that it's hard to tell how good he really is as a player.  If he were treated like just another guy, then we would finally tell how great he truly is.  
 
He has been empowered his entire career, with a sense of entitlement that he should go to the line EVERY time he doesn't make a basket.  On the defensive end, he's allowed to be as physical as he wants, but when he has the ball he cries for a whistle if someone has the temerity to try to guard him.  I'd like to know how good he really is, but it's impossible to tell because of the preferential treatment he's always received.  I think the league is actually doing him a disservice in this GOAT debate.
I don't really agree with this. I thought the refs missed a few calls on Lebron going to the rim. Further, most people consider Jordan the best. He got every call in every game after a certain point. The game yesterday actually reminded me if some Bulls games from the late 90s.

James on the court game is really something. I won't diminish it. My opinion of him really changed after the way he played after the god job good effort game. I thought the Celtics cracked him, but it was the opposite. He has been really top notch since then.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, LeBron is a bit like Shaq, so physically strong compared to the guys going against him that they get away with a lot of fouls just because they don't seem to affect him. I do agree that he should be called for a few more defensive fouls, but I don't think it matters much either. 
 

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jon abbey said:
Yeah, he reminds me of Patrick Beverley, who ended Russell Westbrook's season and OKC's hopes last year with a borderline play. Neither is exceptionally talented, both push the boundaries of what the rest of the league considers cheap shots. 
If they didn't play this scrappy, full effort style would either be in the league? Regardless of Delladanova's actions, I saw Horford pull him down not Delladanova dive at his knees, they are separate from Horford's decision to throw down the hammer on a player laying on the ground.
 

jon abbey

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HomeRunBaker said:
If they didn't play this scrappy, full effort style would either be in the league? 
 
Right, that's what I was trying to say but I guess didn't explicitly. It didn't make me any less furious when Beverley hurt Westbrook on what I thought was a real bush league play, but I don't think it's dirty a la Laimbeer/Mahorn/Dwayne Wade. 
 

lars10

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HomeRunBaker said:
If they didn't play this scrappy, full effort style would either be in the league? Regardless of Delladanova's actions, I saw Horford pull him down not Delladanova dive at his knees, they are separate from Horford's decision to throw down the hammer on a player laying on the ground.
Before that happens 'deli' does two things: 1. He jumps into Horford and tries to establish position by throwing or shoving his elbow into Horford's chest..2. He undercuts him on the attempted rebound. Then he's falling under Horford, but Deli put himself in that position by getting under Horford in the first place.

Besides this he's been a generally cheap player.. Undercutting guys generally gets under the skin...and I'm sure the other things he does does the same. It doesn't justify an elbow but the elbow was about far more than this play/game.

I think big guys especially are really careful/ worried about their knees..Deli is not at all careful around other people's lower legs.
 

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Curious - how would you like him to handle this? This guy has was anointed as the "Chosen One" from something like 6th grade, and for the last twenty-odd years, I'm sure this has been reinforced in him daily, if not hourly (except for losing in the finals multiple times).
 
 
 
No doubt Lebron has had a unique path that certainly could be a reason for his behavior, I won't deny that.   If you ask me what he should do… I'd say focus on playing the game and less on trying to prove what a hero he is to everyone.  Hard to listen to him talk about what a warrior he is, what a leader he is, how smart he is, etc. 
 
If he was on the Celtics, sure I'm sure I'd just deal with it and root for the guy.  He is an incredible basketball player, and I don't think most of what he does is "that bad" (though not running back on D last night after his tantrum was pretty awful).
 
His persona is just off-putting to me, that's all.  Just because he has been "the chosen one" since 6th grade, that doesn't mean he has to remind us every second how great he is.  Does anyone here think that he really needed to collapse in the middle of the floor the second after that game was over last night?  Again, doesn't change my opinion of him as a basketball player, but makes it a bit easier to root against him in my opinion. 
 

radsoxfan

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swingin val said:
Is there some reason you think he is unfocused during the game?
 
I didn't say he needs to focus more on the game, or is unfocused during the game.  I didn't know "focus" was a zero sum game term, but I suppose you can read it that way if you choose to. 
 
Same effort playing the game, less effort proving he is a hero. Better?
 

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radsoxfan said:
 
Same effort playing the game, less effort proving he is a hero. Better?
 
Eh, earlier in his career he made passes in final seconds of games and critics got on him for not being willing to take the big shot.
 
He's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 

radsoxfan

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DrewDawg said:
 
Eh, earlier in his career he made passes in final seconds of games and critics got on him for not being willing to take the big shot.
 
He's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
My comment about being a hero is in reference to the paragraph I wrote above. 
 
Less effort proving he is a hero with his self-praise (reminding us how many injuries he has, his fake collapse on the floor after the game, etc).  Nothing to do with his on-court performance. 
 
I can only assume I'm being very unclear because no one can follow a thing that I write today.  
 

jon abbey

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radsoxfan said:
 
 Does anyone here think that he really needed to collapse in the middle of the floor the second after that game was over last night? 
 
Um, yeah. he cramped up early in the OT and couldn't even stand for the postgame interview. Even later in the press conference, he was the most exhausted I've ever seen him, he almost couldn't answer questions. Again, he was asked to be the primary scorer, the primary rebounder and the primary ballhandler, like if Magic had to play a crucial playoff game without Kareem and Worthy. It was an amazing effort even in a career filled with amazing efforts, so impressive to me. 
 

jon abbey

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Also, Jeff Teague collapsed right after the game too. Both teams were missing so many guys that the remaining ones had to try to compensate, and the gravity of the situation and the closeness of the game was exceptionally draining, and no one took on anywhere near as much responsibility as LeBron. 
 

radsoxfan

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So if the game goes to double OT, he can't continue?  I just don't buy it. He may have been cramping, but the theatrics around it were at least in part an act in my opinion.  Lebron is obsessed with the attention, just too many examples of this in the past to think otherwise. Like I said, unreal player, but stuff like this makes it easier for me to root against him.
 
I swear I didn't write this blog, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels similarly.
 
http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/last-nights-theatrics-summed-up-why-everybody-should-hate-bron-bron/
 
The "call for a sub, then let everyone know you're waving off the sub all in the span of 5 seconds" was my personal favorite. That might be a new one to his expanding repertoire. 
 

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radsoxfan said:
So if the game goes to double OT, he can't continue?  I just don't buy it. He may have been cramping, but the theatrics around it were at least in part an act in my opinion.  Lebron is obsessed with the attention, just too many examples of this in the past to think otherwise. Like I said, unreal player, but stuff like this makes it easier for me to root against him.
 
I swear I didn't write this blog, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels similarly.
 
The "call for a sub, then let everyone know you're waving off the sub all in the span of 5 seconds" was my personal favorite. That might be a new one to his expanding repertoire. 
 
http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston/last-nights-theatrics-summed-up-why-everybody-should-hate-bron-bron/
 
I'm with you.  I think Lebron is a spectacular player, one of the six or eight best to ever play the game.  And I also find the theatrics and need for attention to be transparent and annoying; the ARod comparison made in the thread feels apt to me.
 

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Word just came through that the Finals will not get moved up even if both teams sweep. That's very helpful for the Cavs, as it will give Kyrie until June 4 to get healthy.
 

jon abbey

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HomeRunBaker said:
Bird game vs Nique. MJ flu game.

LeBron's effort yesterday to me is at worst the 3rd most impressive I've witnessed in my lifetime......and he's getting killed in here?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=av44AaOGakA
 
The 2007 game by LBJ against Detroit will be hard to top on his own personal list, he scored their final 25 and 29 of 30 in double OT to steal the crucial pivotal 5th game in Detroit against a very experienced five man unit.
 
This one is a bit hard to judge as I don't have too much respect for ATL and even less for what was left of them in the second half, but still an insane effort, maybe top 10 alltime that I've seen, maybe top 20. 
 

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nattysez said:
Word just came through that the Finals will not get moved up even if both teams sweep. That's very helpful for the Cavs, as it will give Kyrie until June 4 to get healthy.
 
Big shocker that the Association would do a solid for LeBron.  Gives his team more time to rest and the Dubs will be rusty heading into Game 1 with 9 days off in between games.  Being in rhythm is a lot more important for a team like Golden State.
 

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shawnrbu said:
 
Big shocker that the Association would do a solid for LeBron.  Gives his team more time to rest and the Dubs will be rusty heading into Game 1 with 9 days off in between games.  Being in rhythm is a lot more important for a team like Golden State.
 
My guess is it has a lot more to do with ad space that's been sold to programs on the network that would be re-slotted with a new start to the finals than it does with a "solid to LeBron." 
 

jon abbey

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
My guess is it has a lot more to do with ad space that's been sold to programs on the network that would be re-slotted with a new start to the finals than it does with a "solid to LeBron." 
 
Plus they were trying to move it up two days, which kind of fucks the ticket holders, since every game would move up two days then.
 
GS will be happy to get Speights back, not that he is Kyrie Irving, although it's far from clear that Kyrie will be close to 100 percent even with this additional time off.
 

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HomeRunBaker said:
Bird game vs Nique. MJ flu game.

LeBron's effort yesterday to me is at worst the 3rd most impressive I've witnessed in my lifetime......and he's getting killed in here?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=av44AaOGakA
 
Athletic performance = great
 
Acting performance = transparent and annoying
 
They can both co-exist at the same time.  If people choose to disagree with me, and think Lebron's antics are totally genuine (or you simply don't care about them), then that's fine.
 
For what it's worth, I can understand the opinion of those who just don't care how he acts much more easily than I can understand those who fell for that act. 
 

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If selling calls were something reserved only for LeBron than I would understand the position that so many people take. For better or for worse working the officials by players and coaches is now a part of the game that everyone participates in. Those who excel at this skill, like LeBron, win this game within the game......and those who don't communicate their emotion effectively lose.

I'd rather it not be in the game but times change, it's 2015, and it's here. I'm not going to condemn the greatest basketball player in the world simply because he excels at a skill which none of us are particular fond of.
 

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Honestly, after Paul Pierce's head bandage and (later on) wheelchair stunt, I can't fault a single NBA player for "milking it", because I loves me some Paul Pierce.
 

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Devizier said:
Honestly, after Paul Pierce's head bandage and (later on) wheelchair stunt, I can't fault a single NBA player for "milking it", because I loves me some Paul Pierce.
 
Word.  OFT.  This.  Preach. Etc.    Pierce - and I too love, love, love him - whines, flops, milks his injuries, talks trash and is anything but humble.  If we are being critical of other players who do this stuff - and as HRB says, its widespread throughout the NBA - we ought to start with "our guys".
 

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Devizier said:
Honestly, after Paul Pierce's head bandage and (later on) wheelchair stunt, I can't fault a single NBA player for "milking it", because I loves me some Paul Pierce.
You are exactly right. Looking back, nothing will ever top that
 

radsoxfan

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HomeRunBaker said:
If selling calls were something reserved only for LeBron than I would understand the position that so many people take. For better or for worse working the officials by players and coaches is now a part of the game that everyone participates in. Those who excel at this skill, like LeBron, win this game within the game......and those who don't communicate their emotion effectively lose.

I'd rather it not be in the game but times change, it's 2015, and it's here. I'm not going to condemn the greatest basketball player in the world simply because he excels at a skill which none of us are particular fond of.
"Working the officials" and complaining about calls is a small minority of what I'm talking about. His entire persona is just off-putting. Both on and off the court. Arod is a good example. I very much appreciate the talent, but that doesn't mean you just have to ignore the other stuff.

FWIW, the Pierce wheelchair thing was also kind of pathetic, don't get me wrong. I also said if Lebron was on the Celtics I'm sure I'd still root for him.
 

jon abbey

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FWIW, A-Rod has played for my team for 10+ years now and I have never liked him. LeBron, on the other hand, snubbed my team (Knicks) when they went after him, yet I have always been a massive fan since I first saw him in high school. To me there is no comparison when it comes to personality and genuineness, but as always, your mileage may vary. 
 

lars10

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HomeRunBaker said:
Bird game vs Nique. MJ flu game.

LeBron's effort yesterday to me is at worst the 3rd most impressive I've witnessed in my lifetime......and he's getting killed in here?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=av44AaOGakA
My thought was Lebron is trying to have his MJ flu game. Problem is he's done this before... Not sure why he has such a problem with cramps, but did Jordan?
My problem with Lebron is he's obviously great but he seems to have a complex about making himself look 'greater'. It usually comes off as contrived whereas the MJ wasn't. This may be a Lebron bias though.
 

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Am I crazy to say it feels like Houston should be up more at this point? They have come out in a flurry but the Warriors are still fighting and I expect them to weather the storm.
 

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GraysonGrandeGonads said:
Obligatory Red Sox 0-3 reference. The gift that gives on giving.
Pregame on CSNBA used it also. But they followed it up by saying baseball goes back >100 years, NBA basketball just since '46-'47. It's happened in hockey 3 times?
 

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I know the stats about comebacks in NBA playoff series but Houston can certainly win four straight, even against this Golden State team.  And even at Oracle.