NBA Offseason

Cellar-Door

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Speculation that Harden, Wetbrook, and others want out because of Fertitta's support for Trump
I don't buy it. I think they all want out because Fertitta is a bad owner who started cheaping out the minute he got the team because he has money issues and has seemed way over his head.

Who is playing defense on that team? I get the appeal, but the Kyrie/Harden back court might be the worst defensive pairing the league has ever seen...At least from an effort standpoint.
Harden is actually a closer to league average defender now.
 

lostjumper

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Harden is not the black hole that he once was.

Kyrie still is and may be worse now.
I hadn't realized that. I'm curious if that was because he improved, or if the team defense at Houston was built with him in mind. Still, Kyrie is so bad it will be interesting to see what the defense looks like.
 

nighthob

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If you're Houston does your desire to dump Westbrook go up, down, or not change now? You aren't a contender, but then again you don't have your own picks so little value to bottoming out either.

Presumably he can go back to being "Russell with the ball all the time" in the post-Harden era.
It depends on what Harden's being traded for. If they're doing him a favor and shipping him out for LaVert and scrapple then it makes sense to let Russell Westbrook go back to being himself and doing their best to surround him with shooters. If it's Simmons then it's best to move him for a 3&D guy and build that team around Simmons.
 

nighthob

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Will Houston even attempt to do a deal with Philly considering that there may be some bad blood with Morey?
As the GM your job is to put the best team possible on the floor. If your choice is between Simmons and LaVert you choose Simmons twenty eight times out of ten.
 

nighthob

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I don't disagree, but I'm just thinking that may play a factor outside of rational thinking.
If you're Rafael Stone you might not ever get another shot at running an NBA team. So letting "resentment for Morey" dictate putting a worse team on the court seems waaaaaay short-sighted. Plus I doubt he resents Morey for leaving Houston and opening up the spot for him. The ownership group might resent Morey, but they aren't involved until the final sign-off. And then Stone just says "We're rebuilding while competing for the playoffs, how much better does it get?"
 

chilidawg

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lovegtm

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Getting even slightly positive value for the backend of Kemba’s contract would be a big win. I’d much rather have Hayward’s next 4 years (at a presumably much lower number) plus the roster flexibility.
 

Tony C

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This seems unlikely. Jrue Holiday is a clear upgrade over Bledsoe/Hill and Bogdanovich is a great get especially considering they lost some shooting with Hill being traded.
Yeah, this makes the Bucks much MUCH better. Holiday isn't a superstar, but he's a terrific player and a great complement. Bogdanovich has holes in his game, but will really help.
Same thing was said about the Lakers last year after trading away half their roster for AD
I was going to write the same thing. Everyone hooting and hollering about how bad this is should visit the Lakers thread from when they traded for AD. Getting the best players in a deal to surround a stud like Giannis or LeBron and letting the rest sort itself out is a good strategy. "Value" isn't the best way to judge trades. In the context in which they're in, Milw has done very well.
 

Swedgin

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If you're Rafael Stone you might not ever get another shot at running an NBA team. So letting "resentment for Morey" dictate putting a worse team on the court seems waaaaaay short-sighted. Plus I doubt he resents Morey for leaving Houston and opening up the spot for him. The ownership group might resent Morey, but they aren't involved until the final sign-off. And then Stone just says "We're rebuilding while competing for the playoffs, how much better does it get?"
That is all well and good. But I think it fundamentally understands how this works. Stone does not get to make this call. Almost all trades require ownership approval. Trading the face of your franchise definitely requires the owner signing off. Whatever Stone's incentives might be, they are irrelevant. This is all about Tillman. And its not just going to be, him giving up a thumbs up or down on the final product. He is going to be intimately involved throughout the process.

Obviously, none of us know him. But does Tillman strike you as a totally rational actor? A Vulcan who makes decisions devoid of emotion? Or does he seem more like the kind of guy who says f@ck Morey and who will only agree to trade with Philly if it makes the Pelicans and OKC's recent hauls look like a pittance?
 

amfox1

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Source: The Rockets are seeking to buy a late first- or early second-round pick in Wednesday's draft. Houston wants to continue stockpiling assets after getting two firsts from Portland in the Robert Covington trade.
 

Swedgin

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Yeah, this makes the Bucks much MUCH better. Holiday isn't a superstar, but he's a terrific player and a great complement. Bogdanovich has holes in his game, but will really help.
I was going to write the same thing. Everyone hooting and hollering about how bad this is should visit the Lakers thread from when they traded for AD. Getting the best players in a deal to surround a stud like Giannis or LeBron and letting the rest sort itself out is a good strategy. "Value" isn't the best way to judge trades. In the context in which they're in, Milw has done very well.
I agree with most of this.

Value is not the end all be all, but it is a consideration. If Milwaukee had pushed back on one of those swaps, was Griffin really going to find a better deal. More importantly, trading away four drafts is a much much bigger risk for the Bucks and the Lakers. The Lakers managed to make a bunch of dumb move, have a few misses and still land Lebron, which then allowed for the AD force a trade move. That path to recovery is not available to the Bucks. If those goes down in flames, the only path to a rebuild will be blocked for a long time.

That being said, if Giannis signs the extension because of these moves you do it 10 times out of 10. If you are a small market team with a perennial MVP, you take your shot. It maybe decades before you find another one.
 

nighthob

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That is all well and good. But I think it fundamentally understands how this works. Stone does not get to make this call. Almost all trades require ownership approval. Trading the face of your franchise definitely requires the owner signing off. Whatever Stone's incentives might be, they are irrelevant. This is all about Tillman. And its not just going to be, him giving up a thumbs up or down on the final product. He is going to be intimately involved throughout the process.

Obviously, none of us know him. But does Tillman strike you as a totally rational actor? A Vulcan who makes decisions devoid of emotion? Or does he seem more like the kind of guy who says f@ck Morey and who will only agree to trade with Philly if it makes the Pelicans and OKC's recent hauls look like a pittance?
We’re not discussing Junior Irsay here. The desire to cut payroll is probably driven by the temporary business losses and not wanting to add basketball losses to the bloody pile. And we’re not discussing Morey offering a decentish starter and fodder for the face of his franchise. And, yes, if the choices are between Simmons+ and LaVert+, he’s going to sign off on having a playoff team rather than a lottery team whose picks belong to someone else.
 

Smokey Joe

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Same thing was said about the Lakers last year after trading away half their roster for AD
There is a huge difference about going to LA for a season at the minimum and going to Milwaukee for a season at the minimum. The Bucks will have like 14 million to fill out their roster. This team is one injury away from disaster. (They can still make moves, but being hardcapped is a problem).

oh yeah, forgot about James coming back in the deal with the Kings.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The Bucks improved imo. I watched too many Kings games over the last few seasons and Bogdanovic made a leap last year, especially the stretch before the shutdown and in the bubble. He should fit well with the Bucks system and can really take over as a secondary or even primary scorer on some nights. When he gets going, he can be a volume bucket getter.
 
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Ale Xander

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I don't buy it. I think they all want out because Fertitta is a bad owner who started cheaping out the minute he got the team because he has money issues and has seemed way over his head.
According to Bucher, the Trumpiness is what it is. No Tilman Tuesday today on CNBC, FWIW.

 

Ale Xander

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Obviously, none of us know him. But does Tillman strike you as a totally rational actor? A Vulcan who makes decisions devoid of emotion? Or does he seem more like the kind of guy who says f@ck Morey and who will only agree to trade with Philly if it makes the Pelicans and OKC's recent hauls look like a pittance?
Don't "know" him, but seen him about a dozen times on CNBC, and he doesn't strike me as the vindictive type, and when asked about Morey, sounded very understanding. Maybe an act, but he doesn't strike me as a good actor, either.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Btw, this story in the Ringer says Milwaukee has about $21mm available to round out their seven roster spots. Its not a lot but I believe its a bit more than we were thinking upthread.
 

JakeRae

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Btw, this story in the Ringer says Milwaukee has about $21mm available to round out their seven roster spots. Its not a lot but I believe its a bit more than we were thinking upthread.
That’s the maximum amount they can spend due to the hard cap. They don’t have that amount to spend though. They basically have the taxpayer MLE, minimum contracts, and the ability to resign their own FA, who are mostly minimum contract level players. The hard cap probably shouldn’t hamstring them in filling out their roster though.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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That’s the maximum amount they can spend due to the hard cap. They don’t have that amount to spend though. They basically have the taxpayer MLE, minimum contracts, and the ability to resign their own FA, who are mostly minimum contract level players. The hard cap probably shouldn’t hamstring them in filling out their roster though.
Got it, thank you. They need more wings but given that almost everyone else does, they can't play in that market. They are going to need to get creative and/lucky.
 

tbb345

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We’re not discussing Junior Irsay here. The desire to cut payroll is probably driven by the temporary business losses and not wanting to add basketball losses to the bloody pile. And we’re not discussing Morey offering a decentish starter and fodder for the face of his franchise. And, yes, if the choices are between Simmons+ and LaVert+, he’s going to sign off on having a playoff team rather than a lottery team whose picks belong to someone else.
FWIW, on the latest Ringer NBA show KOC said that he was told that Fertitta wouldn’t trade Harden to Morey even if Philly has the best offer
 

lovegtm

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FWIW, on the latest Ringer NBA show KOC said that he was told that Fertitta wouldn’t trade Harden to Morey even if Philly has the best offer
Understandable: Morey blowtorched the franchise with that dumb Westbrook trade, and left them with the smoking ruins.
 

Swedgin

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Understandable: Morey blowtorched the franchise with that dumb Westbrook trade, and left them with the smoking ruins.
Probably not the source of the animosity. By all accounts the Westbrook trade was driven by Harden/ownership, not Morey (caveat that Morey is generally well liked and well connected among NBA media types - but that reporting/"informed speculation" re the trade was out there well before the divorce from Houston).

More likely some combination of:
  1. China
  2. Resentment over media coverage (Morey is lauded/Tillman is shit on)
  3. The new marriage immediately after the divorce.
As to the last, Tillman bought out at least some portion of Morey's deal. The messaging in the immediate aftermath was that this was a mutual decision and that Morey wanted to step away and do something else than run an NBA team. Then after the ink is barely dry, he's with the Sixers.
 

Kliq

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Pretty sure Morey got the ax because he was obsessed with playing a brand of basketball that clearly wasn't working in the playoffs and barely resembled basketball at all.
 

nighthob

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Do the Thunder have the capspace to cover that salary difference? I thought they only had around ten million or so.
 

OurF'ingCity

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It’s a good trade for both teams. Sixers were always going to have to package Horford with picks to get out of that contract but they at least got a decent player back in return, and OKC meanwhile continues its quest to own every single pick in the NBA.
 

nighthob

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Does this mean free agents won’t go to Philly because they traded Horford after 1 year?
Yes, it means that agents aren't going to put as much trust in Philly's management because most agents aren't looking at their clients as assets to be accumulated for trade.