NBA offseason thread

Tony C

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-Jordan screwed Cuban.
-Fegan arguably screwed Jordan (though who really knows what happened).
-the upshot will screw Fegan.
 
Owners will see him as someone who doesn't truly rep his clients and can't deliver on his promises. His clients will see him as a guy who puts his business above his clients' interests. You just know other agents are all over his clients.  
 
Jordan is the ass here...but like all talent he'll be golden, all the same. None of us are in a position to know if the agent was really delivering Jordan to Cuban unethically or if that's just spin...but he'll definitely take the hit. 
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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nighthob said:
A max deal from a team that you weren't playing for for three years is by definition for less money than you could have gotten in a max deal from the team that you've spent the last three years playing for. This is not debatable.
 
You're correct, it's not debatable. It's also not what happened here, so I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. 
 

nighthob

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
How exactly did Fegan screw Cuban?
Not Cuban, Jordan. No player cares that his agent is chummy with GMs. They care that they're getting them the most money. Right now, with the leaked stories, it looks like the agent tried to fracture the relationship between the player and the team, to convince him to take a contract with another team that would, by the rules of the CBA, pay him less. I'm agnostic on whether or not this impacts him long term (hence my starting the original statement "it depends"), but it certainly isn't absurd to think that this could impact his player business in the future as some people have been claiming.

It's not really comparable to the Pelinka situation because he made his client an extra $12 million or so, which I can see as being a golden recommendation of his abilities.
 

Cellar-Door

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nighthob said:
A max deal from a team that you weren't playing for for three years is by definition for less money than you could have gotten in a max deal from the team that you've spent the last three years playing for. This is not debatable.
Actually it is. He took 3 years with a 4th option.
The tax differential means it is less in net than the Dallas offer.
The gross is only about $4M different even if he picks up the option. State taxes are way more than $4M. Jordan took less money to stay in LA.
 
Edit- Interestingly it means his agent gets less though. So I don't really buy the argument that Fegan was trying to screw Jordan by getting him more money and a bigger role on a team in his home state. I mean I don't think he was exactly forcing him at gunpoint to have dinner with Chandler Parsons.
By far the simplest explanation for what happened is that DeAndre got cold feet. Owners aren't going to blame Fegan for that, and I doubt players will hold Fegan getting a guy 3 max offers against him. DeAndre is an 8 year veteran 26 year old man, Fegan didn't trick him into anything, DeAndre is just the same immature, emotional guy he always was
 

DannyDarwinism

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ifmanis5 said:
In other news Enes Kanter four year max deal with Portland. Thunder have 3 days to match.
 
Can't imagine they will with Ibaka, McGary and Adams, and they're already up against the tax.  4/70 is a lot of scratch for who was dead last in DRPM for centers.  And Bargnani was the only one who was even close.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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DannyDarwinism said:
 
Can't imagine they will with Ibaka, McGary and Adams, and they're already up against the tax.  4/70 is a lot of scratch for who was dead last in DRPM for centers.  And Bargnani was the only one who was even close.
 
Presti already announced they'll match. Likely will be moving some other contracts now, otherwise looking at a huge tax bill. 
 

Three10toLeft

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
Presti already announced they'll match. Likely will be moving some other contracts now, otherwise looking at a huge tax bill. 
 
 
I think he claimed they'd match before he was offered a max deal. It didn't really seem like any team was going to come after him with quite that kind of contract, at least those were my impressions of the situation.
 
Not to go full Simmons, but it would really bring quite the belly laugh if the OKC owners decided to OK paying the tax for Enes Kanter, and not... Ya know... James Harden.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Three10toLeft said:
 
 
I think he claimed they'd match before he was offered a max deal. It didn't really seem like any team was going to come after him with quite that kind of contract, at least those were my impressions of the situation.
 
Not to go full Simmons, but it would really bring quite the belly laugh if the OKC owners decided to OK paying the tax for Enes Kanter, and not... Ya know... James Harden.
 
This tweet is recent, but maybe the size of the offer changes things? I dont know: https://twitter.com/anthonyVslater/status/619239420378480640. 
 
It's actually illegal to say that before offer sheets are signed, and the Players Union claims they're going to try to enforce that this year. But so long as the offer sheet is signed, I doubt they'll care. 
 

AMS25

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Three10toLeft said:
Not to go full Simmons, but it would really bring quite the belly laugh if the OKC owners decided to OK paying the tax for Enes Kanter, and not... Ya know... James Harden.
 
Harden couldn't play defense either, but no one seemed to notice that until he landed in Houston.... In any event, the cap will go up, the Thunder make a profit, and they've avoided becoming a repeat payer of the tax. Now is the time to spend!
 

bowiac

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AMS25 said:
Harden couldn't play defense either, but no one seemed to notice that until he landed in Houston.... In any event, the cap will go up, the Thunder make a profit, and they've avoided becoming a repeat payer of the tax. Now is the time to spend!
How will OKC make a profit?
 
https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/619256190665519104
 

DannyDarwinism

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
Presti already announced they'll match. Likely will be moving some other contracts now, otherwise looking at a huge tax bill. 
 
I suppose with the cap increase its at least defensible for a 23 year old with his offensive game, but he still needs to make significant improvement to not be an overall liability.  I wonder how people here would react to Olynyk, who I wouldn't trade straight up for Kanter, at 4/70.  I know the answer is in large part "Gobert", but didn't Utah basically go from worst to best in points allowed/100 possessions after the Kanter trade?
 

bowiac

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DannyDarwinism said:
I suppose with the cap increase its at least defensible for a 23 year old with his offensive game, but he still needs to make significant improvement to not be an overall liability.  I wonder how people here would react to Olynyk, who I wouldn't trade straight up for Kanter, at 4/70.  I know the answer is in large part "Gobert", but didn't Utah basically go from worst to best in points allowed/100 possessions after the Kanter trade?
Without any sophisticated analysis, opponents were about 9 points per 100 possessions better offensively with Kanter on the court. With sophisticated analysis, he's still awful.
 

AMS25

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bowiac said:
How will OKC make a profit?
 
https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/619256190665519104
 
OKC has always made a profit. Arena is always full. To be sure, OKC will make a smaller profit while paying the luxury tax, but at least the organization is not a repeater yet.
 

Tony C

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from Zach Lowe on Fegan -- http://grantland.com/the-triangle/sorting-out-the-deandre-jordan-carnival/
This is not a good day for Dan Fegan, Jordan’s agent. On draft night, the Mavericks selected Satnam Singh with the 52nd pick — a massive guy who no one thinks can play in the NBA. Fegan’s agency represents Singh. The league rolled its eyes — another Cuban-Fegan job. The two men are tight, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Cuban has signed a pile of Fegan clients, and he made a run at another one, Dwight Howard, two summers ago.
He didn’t get Howard, but a year later, Cuban wooed another Fegan client: Chandler Parsons. The Rockets let Parsons out of his contract a year early, and it’s widely known around the league — and yet never said on the record — that Houston did so as a repayment for Howard signing there.
 
 

radsoxfan

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bowiac said:
Without any sophisticated analysis, opponents were about 9 points per 100 possessions better offensively with Kanter on the court. With sophisticated analysis, he's still awful.
 
 
I don't disagree on the numbers, and it certainly seems like both sophisticated and relatively simple analyses say the same thing.
 
At the same time, apparently 2 FO are willing to ignore that and give him max money.  Which begs the questions...
 
Do they not know about the stats?
Do they not believe in the validity of the stats?
Do they think his stats will get significantly better in the next 4 years?
 
It seems too simple to just say from afar, "we know OKC will get better if they let Kanter go".  OKC/Por must have some pretty smart people going through things and coming to a very different conclusions. I wonder why.
 
Is the answer as simple as …."they actually don't have smart people making decisions"? 
 

bowiac

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AMS25 said:
OKC has always made a profit. Arena is always full. To be sure, OKC will make a smaller profit while paying the luxury tax, but at least the organization is not a repeater yet.
Ah. I misunderstood (wasn't thinking $$$ profit).
 

bowiac

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radsoxfan said:
It seems too simple to just say from afar, "we know OKC will get better if they let Kanter go".  OKC/Por must have some pretty smart people going through things and coming to a very different conclusions. I wonder why.
 
Is the answer as simple as …."they actually don't have smart people making decisions"? 
With the caveat that we don't have much visibility into the situation, for Portland, I think it's some combination of:
 
By far the biggest: 1) They just want to screw with OKC, since they know OKC will match. This is still a risk of course, but OKC has good reasons to match, so its not a huge risk.
 
2) The decision-makers may not believe he's as bad as the stats indicate. Portland has a good stats department, but they don't always get to make the call. Scouts don't love him defensively either, but its the RPM-style metrics that show him to be an abomination. The difference between below average and terrible is key with him.
 
3) He's young, he has "pedigree", and could still figure it out.
 
4) Portland doesn't have a good idea for rebuilding. They lost Lopez, Aldridge, and Mathews, but they probably don't want to do a full-tank either because of Lillard.
 
5) With the cap expanding, even bad contracts aren't disastrous.
 
For OKC, it's simpler. They're over the cap, they desperately need to keep Durant, so they'll pay whatever at this point. If there's a chance Kanter can help (which there is, because of reasons #2 and 3 above), they'll take a chance on a bad contract. They're going to make the playoffs regardless, so if by year's end, Kanter is still terrible, they can just bench him for McGary. Plus there's a bit of a sunk-cost thing going on - they traded assets for him which they don't want to be for nothing.
 
There are teams who don't have smart people making decisions. Portland and OKC aren't those teams however. That's not to say they're perfect however. In this case, OKC's Durant situation I think is driving things. If Durant and Westbrook were sure things to stay, I think Portland wouldn't be able to safely make this offer knowing that OKC will match.
 

Tony C

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if they're going to re-sign Durant, they need to go all in this year and prove they can win. Now I don't know that Kanter is a smart use of that money...but it makes sense, at least that they'd spend the money.
 
edit: or, er, as Bowiac said, better and at more length.
 

bowiac

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Tony C said:
if they're going to re-sign Durant, they need to go all in this year and prove they can win. Now I don't know that Kanter is a smart use of that money...but it makes sense, at least that they'd spend the money.
This is a better way of saying what I was trying to convey.
 

bowiac

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Where Amazing Happens
 
https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/619274538791141377
 

radsoxfan

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More than the Sacramento offer!  Wes and his shredded Achilles did quite well for themselves. 
 
Maybe Wes and DeAndre (and their agents) were secretly in this together.  You mean we can get a total of 158M million combined over 4 years, not 137M?  Let's do that….
 

DannyDarwinism

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Marc Stein reporting that the Mavs are getting Zaza from the Bucks.  Seems like a decent fit for them.
 

Cellar-Door

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radsoxfan said:
More than the Sacramento offer!  Wes and his shredded Achilles did quite well for themselves. 
 
Maybe Wes and DeAndre (and their agents) were secretly in this together.  You mean we can get a total of 158M million combined over 4 years, not 137M?  Let's do that….
You think DeAndre and Wes are so tight he took less money to get Wes more? I kinda doubt it.
 

radsoxfan

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Cellar-Door said:
You think DeAndre and Wes are so tight he took less money to get Wes more? I kinda doubt it.
 
Yeah, I was kidding.  
 
But it is funny that in the end, it actually helped Matthews quite a bit financially. 
 

moondog80

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Sort of puts a different spin on Cuban's "damn right he still wants to play here" tweet.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Ah Zaza, have fun in Dallas.   I will always remember you for this...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T99aL8j4yyc&ab_channel=ChocolateCityWeb
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Dude has been terrible for the money but he can at least still win a game here and there and their depth chart is already woefully thin. He was also the Nets' best 3pt shooter last year despite everything.

I'm guessing in the end Nets fans will be thrilled to see him go but disappointed to find that it actually makes the team worse.
 
edit: And it would be another move to help keep/push Dallas into that sweet, sweet low lottery purgatory.
 

BoSoxFink

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If Williams goes and they trade Joe Johnson, the Nets could be really bad and that pick next year is looking better and better
 

Devizier

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Pretty great news for the Celtics, even if Williams will fulfill much more of his potential in Dallas. A marginal improvement in the Nets picks is worth the depreciation of the Mavericks pick.
 

bowiac

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For those wondering who are the bad GMs...
 
https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/619309736396226560
 

Koufax

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Devizier said:
Pretty great news for the Celtics, even if Williams will fulfill much more of his potential in Dallas. A marginal improvement in the Nets picks is worth the depreciation of the Mavericks pick.
Especially if the Mavs were getting close to tank-land, bringing the top-7 protection into play.
 

the1andonly3003

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bowiac said:
For those wondering who are the bad GMs...
 
https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/619309736396226560
I'm not sure if the Bucks could have anticipated Mavs being interested in Zaza
can't the Bucks create a trade exception for trading Zaza now that they are above cap?
 

zenter

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Clears Cleaver said:
Deron Williams close to get his release from the Nets to sign with the Mavs
 
This could turn into a classic "DA gets involved to facilitate" game. Nets would probably prefer to trade him without releasing so they're not on the hook for all that salary. Mavs might be able to absorb all of it, but would probably want to offset it by moving, say, Raymond Felton? (hey, we can always use another 1.5 guard, right?)
 
 
bowiac said:
For those wondering who are the bad GMs...
 
https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/619309736396226560
 
While I always enjoy schadenfreude, this is purely the result of moratorium stupidity. A better way to do let the offseason work is to kill the moratorium - allowing all deals and deals to be made starting July 1 - and have a 1 month grace period during which all deals can be made. Then, at the end of the grace period, teams can submit the order of deals. If they violate, they have 1 week to fix it or all deals after the violating move are nullified. Then FA can continue with cap mechanics through the start of the season.
 
But, since moratorium does exist... This too, could turn into a "DA-to-facilitate" play.
 

bowiac

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Vlade explaining the Cousins-Karl relationship:
 
“I will be honest with you, I think it’s not pretty right now,” Divac said of the two. “I’m focused on bringing a better team this year, and I think I did a pretty good job in this free agency, and now I will be focused on the two of them. I think they should think about how they can do the best for this team, and I hope everything goes well.”
 
Bonus points for Vlade bragging about how good a job he did in free agency.
 

nighthob

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zenter said:
While I always enjoy schadenfreude, this is purely the result of moratorium stupidity. A better way to do let the offseason work is to kill the moratorium - allowing all deals and deals to be made starting July 1 - and have a 1 month grace period during which all deals can be made. Then, at the end of the grace period, teams can submit the order of deals. If they violate, they have 1 week to fix it or all deals after the violating move are nullified. Then FA can continue with cap mechanics through the start of the season.
 
But, since moratorium does exist... This too, could turn into a "DA-to-facilitate" play.
The moratorium is there because the fiscal books can't be audited in 30 seconds. The NBA's fiscal year ends on 6/30 so the outside auditing firms need time to calculate actual BRI so that the cap and tax levels can be calculated. If they end the moratorium it will be to go back to the old system where the league is shut down entirely until the new numbers are released. The reason for the moratorium was to end the absurdity of teams and agents pretending that they were signing contracts the size of congressional legislation that had been entirely negotiated between midnight and 12:01 the opening of the calendar period.

EDIT: The Nets want a buyout. And Dallas does not want to trade for Williams because their only large salaries are invested in useful players.
 

soxhop411

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Dear Mavs fans,

After all the nonsense coming from an ESPN employee on twitter, I thought I would provide the events of the day on Tuesday.

Through all of Monday [DeAndre and I] were texting back and forth discussing players available, the amount of cap room we had left. Who our staff liked. Who he liked. How excited he was.

Then on Tuesday the communications basically stopped and we started hearing rumblings from multiple people that something was up.

So I flew down to Houston and got a room at the Galleria, which is just a few minutes from his house. I had my driver take me to his house. It’s inside a small gated community but the gate was wide open so we drove in and I literally walked up to his door. There was no one home. So I texted him saying that I was there, “I know something is up. Let’s talk.” He texted me that he was on a date.

I told him to have fun. I wasn’t in a rush, that I was happy to come by there and say hi or if he wanted to make the date fun, take them to Dallas for a night out.

He didn’t respond.

http://deadspin.com/cuban-i-went-to-deandre-jordans-house-but-he-said-he-1717013292?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
 

bowiac

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HomeRunBaker said:
This isn't fair at all imo. After the DeAndre shenanigans I am not sure I'd be telling Khris to hold on for a couple days just in case all hell breaks loose somewhere and that team may be interested in Zaza.
I agree here. This was mostly a snarky attack on Hammond based things outside his control. That said, I do think he's a mediocre/bad GM regardless of this particular situation.
 

Cellar-Door

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HomeRunBaker said:
This isn't fair at all imo. After the DeAndre shenanigans I am not sure I'd be telling Khris to hold on for a couple days just in case all hell breaks loose somewhere and that team may be interested in Zaza.
Well it depends how you value cap space. All hell had already broken out, so you knew DAL was looking for a big man as the moratorium was ending so it was a matter of a few hours. They couldn't lose Middleton as he's a RFA, the only thing that might have happened is that a team makes him a max offer and he signs it, forcing a match. That seems unlikely. A good GM probably goes to Middleton's agent and says.... "hey, we have a chance to clear some cap space with a trade by ordering these deals differently, can Khris hang out for a few hours before he signs this?".  Though probably they just didn't see anywhere they wanted to spend the money so they didn't care what order it  was done in.
 

nattysez

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David Aldridge ‏@daldridgetnt  1m1 minute ago
The Nets and Deron Williams have reached a buyout agreement, per source.
 
 
Dallas gets good enough to stay out of the top 7 and the Nets get a bit worse.  Win-win.
 
 
 
Edit:  Regarding Broussard, I have some second-hand experience with him, and the implication that it's a new thing for him to report a story without attempting to get input from both sides is laughable.  He is worthless.