NBA 20/21 season thread

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,016
Apologies if this article about Harden was posted elsewhere (I didn't happen to see it), but after reading this, I could see why the Celtics would take a hard pass on Harden. He sounds like an invitation to create a truly toxic culture. If they throw their chips in on this guy, it sounds like everything changes. Everything.
That article is damning to many parties, Harden included. But multiple sources make clear that responsibility for the dysfunctional culture ultimately lies with the Rockets, who granted Harden's every wish.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,158
Maybe I'd feel differently if he were on the Celtics, but he is one of my least favorite NBA players due to his style. In some ways, the way the league has evolved into 3 point shooting and foul shots is aesthetically unpleasing, in my opinion. Foul shots are boring, and players griping about calls is not entertaining. 3 pointers are exciting, but players just bombing away - cough Marcus Smart - is not really my favorite.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
Maybe I'd feel differently if he were on the Celtics, but he is one of my least favorite NBA players due to his style. In some ways, the way the league has evolved into 3 point shooting and foul shots is aesthetically unpleasing, in my opinion. Foul shots are boring, and players griping about calls is not entertaining. 3 pointers are exciting, but players just bombing away - cough Marcus Smart - is not really my favorite.
All true. If the Kyrie situation didn't blow up in our faces so spectacularly, I'd be a lot more interested.

Pro's
  1. Still only 31 and probably has a few more elite years left
  2. Good 3pt shooter, especially given the volume and difficulty of shots
  3. Can create his own offense and get to the line, a big need at the end of games
  4. Gives the team another top 10 talent and gives them a duo that can rival anyone else out there
  5. Can plan on or off the ball and would be deadly playing off Tatum or vice versa
Cons
  1. Serious primadonna - would he let this be Tatum's team? Tatum hasn't achieved full undisputed alpha dog status yet
  2. Defense is trash
  3. Jaylen is signed long-term at a great rate - Harden can opt out in 2 years
  4. Style is kind of annoying to watch for many
  5. Currently is fat
  6. Trading Jaylen would likely have locker room impact. Trading Jaylen AND Smarf would absolutely change the dynamic of this team. Can Tatum step in to fill the leadership void? Does he want to?
If I'm Danny, my line in the sand is Kemba. If they refuse to take Kemba, no dice. I'll roll with the Jay's and Smarf. If they would agree to take Kemba, then it's a serious toss up for me, as you'd be getting rid of a lot of uncertainty and would be keeping Smart and would avoid those Kemba/Harden lineups that would get torched on D. Losing Jaylen would suck but if you want a top 10 talent, you have to pay. Then, you use the TPE to add another rotation player and your roster building is effectively done.

Ultimately, I think this is Houston trying to prod the Sixers to budge on Simmons. The Nets deal will be there for Houston whenever they want it but I don't think they do. If I'm Houston, my top 3 targets are Philly with Simmons, then Celtics with Brown, and then Heat with Herro/Achiuwa.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,700
Saint Paul, MN
Wherever Harden goes, he isn't going to be HOU Harden. They built their entire scheme around him dominating the ball and that just won't be the case if he is playing next to Durant/Kyrie or Bam/Butler or whoever. The team that gets him is not going to revamp their entire offensive philosophy.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,460
He’s more tradeable now and viable to keep Kuzma now. More interesting to me he thinks that’s a good deal for him...I think he’s right but many guys with his profile think there’s more in FA
With the opt-out I think it makes sense. If he really blows up he can get out early, but also, I think he realizes that his off-court brand is way bigger in LA on a title team than anywhere else. If he were on the T-Wolves 90% of NBA fans wouldn't know his name.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,671

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
As much as his game annoys me, if you can add a top 5 player to pair with your rising star you add that top 5 player.
The one concern I would have is if Harden intends to remain as a top 5 player. He’s not exactly taking care of himself at the moment, and decline can happen rapidly and unexpectedly in such cases.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
With second round picks selling for seven figures in some cases, it's not meaningless. And it's a public slap on the wrist from a league not prone to such discipline.

It just cost us a second to get the largest TPE ever.
It'll be the last pick in the draft or close to it. Where the 2nd round pick is matters. Anyone they would have wanted to use the pick on will be there to sign as an undrafted rookie.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,405
around the way
It'll be the last pick in the draft or close to it. Where the 2nd round pick is matters. Anyone they would have wanted to use the pick on will be there to sign as an undrafted rookie.
That's true. I still think that the statement and docking of a pick in a two round draft is meaningful. Silver is not like Goodell, constantly whacking teams with penalties like this.
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,595
02130
I would absolutely trade Brown plus for Harden. Probably not Smart and Brown but anyone else, yeah (obviously not Tatum).

I don't think the personality stuff is a dealbreaker. Maybe the partying catches up to him but he always shows up for games, barely misses any time, and as noted upthread no one forced the team to make all those exceptions for him. The Kyrie experience is different since Kyrie is a lot weirder and doesn't just like to party. Also Kyrie isn't as good.

I would expect that Ainge has a candid idea of Harden's personality / work ethic and how he'd fit on the team from people who actually know him and have played with him rather than media reports, as well. So if Danny thinks it can work I'm for it as he has better info than we do.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,895
Los Angeles, CA
I'd probably trade Brown/Kemba+ for Harden+, but I would be concerned about his impact on culture and the future of the team. He doesn't seem like the type who will enjoy Boston as a home city, and on top of that we'd be telling him that the stuff he got away with in Houston won't fly here. It would realy suck if we got 1 or 2 pouty seasons of him and then he's gone.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,671
I don't dislike Harden as much as some other people; but frankly I've really enjoyed watching the J's grow and develop and I'd hate to trade either of them away, even if it is for a Top 5 player in Harden.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2006
7,874
SS Botany Bay
If Brown+Walker for Harden is on the table, you make the deal. Beyond bringing a top 5 talent to Boston, I have a feeling that having Harden on the team will create an incentive for talented vets/ring chasers to sign cheap contracts with Boston, not unlike what happened after KG came to Boston. They aren't coming here (yet) to play with Tatum, but they will for Harden.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
NBA must be bullish on the economic future and Covid vaccine.
Well, there's no real reason to be bearish on the CoVid vaccine at this point with the first 2 approved shots being shown to be highly effective.

As for the economy in general, our resident money people will tell you that there is a lot of unspent money sitting around waiting for the reopening.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,112
Santa Monica
Well, there's no real reason to be bearish on the CoVid vaccine at this point with the first 2 approved shots being shown to be highly effective.

As for the economy in general, our resident money people will tell you that there is a lot of unspent money sitting around waiting for the reopening.
I'd say there are COVID winners and losers. If you are in the hospitality (Fertitta/Rockets) or commercial real estate space (Simon/Pacers) I'd feel a little differently than the Tech owners (Ballmer, Cuban, GSW owners).

Watching a $40MM/yr baller tossing $100K at strippers may be a turn-off to a new owner like Tilman Fertitta. Especially as he lays off minimum wage workers at Landry's.

In Ballmer's care (Clippers) he's worth over $50B, he'll spend as much as he can on players as he opens a new arena. Microsoft, the source of his wealth, is very well positioned to thrive in this new economy.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,758
Harden being traded to Boston would be a big economic boost to the beleaguered strip club industry in Providence.
 
Last edited:

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,758
Lonzo not taking an extension and going to RFA this summer, according to Klutch’s Rich Paul
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,205
The Fultz contract is kind of interesting. On the one hand, given his starting point and performance to date it seems like a lot. That said if you assume that he has corrected, for the most part, whatever was afflicting him while in Philly and look at his improvements YoY its not completely unreasonable, especially if he blossoms into something even resembling the player some thought he would be. Frankly, given Orlando's non-status as a current NBA destination, the terms make sense as a sort of upside play. The deal itself is not crippling and can be moved if need be while Fultz gets to continue rehabbing his NBA career in a relatively low pressure environment.
 
Last edited:

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
The Fultz contract is kind of interesting. On the one hand, given his starting point and performance to date it seems like a lot. That said if you assume that he has corrected, for the most part, whatever was afflicting him while in Philly and look at his improvements YoY its not completely unreasonable, especially if he blossoms into something even resembling the player some thought he would be. Frankly, given Orlando's non-status as a current NBA destination, the deal makes sense as a sort of upside play. The deal itself is not crippling and can be moved if need be while Fultz gets to continue rehabbing his NBA career in a relatively low pressure environment.
Yeah, Fultz as a punchline is dated. He’s really not that bad anymore. Decent chance this is a value neutral contract and there is still some upside remaining.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 10, 2017
5,959
Added a Pro(?):

All true. If the Kyrie situation didn't blow up in our faces so spectacularly, I'd be a lot more interested.

Pro's
  1. Still only 31 and probably has a few more elite years left
  2. Good 3pt shooter, especially given the volume and difficulty of shots
  3. Can create his own offense and get to the line, a big need at the end of games
  4. Gives the team another top 10 talent and gives them a duo that can rival anyone else out there
  5. Can plan on or off the ball and would be deadly playing off Tatum or vice versa
  6. Permanently changing the travel rule to exclude flat-out hops to the side and step backs sans pivot foot, just totally beat the refs into submission. (A Con if you enjoy old-school fundamentals and dislike the superstar-driven product of the NBA.)
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
10,103
Yeah, Fultz as a punchline is dated. He’s really not that bad anymore. Decent chance this is a value neutral contract and there is still some upside remaining.
Fultz as a punchline is definitely dated.

The 76ers as a punchline for trading up to draft him over Tatum and then trading him away so another team gets his upside - that’ll never not be funny.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,191
I’d rather have Fultz and his deal than Kuzma and his. Possibly also Fultz over gobert’s, though those are wildly different situations
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
So the Clippers are paying Marcus Morris and Luke Kennard a combined 4/128M over the next 4 seasons. Interesting strategy.

Not too surprising Danny keeps praying he can find some league average bench players by volume drafting guys like GWill, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard, Edwards et al.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 10, 2017
5,959
The Fultz contract is kind of interesting. On the one hand, given his starting point and performance to date it seems like a lot. That said if you assume that he has corrected, for the most part, whatever was afflicting him while in Philly and look at his improvements YoY its not completely unreasonable, especially if he blossoms into something even resembling the player some thought he would be. Frankly, given Orlando's non-status as a current NBA destination, the deal makes sense as a sort of upside play. The deal itself is not crippling and can be moved if need be while Fultz gets to continue rehabbing his NBA career in a relatively low pressure environment.
He's 22 years old and averaged 12 pts/5 asts last season. His 2-point FG % and FT % have increased dramatically from 43% / 56% to 50% / 73% respectively. The signs are there that within a few years he will be over 30% from 3-point range and that will continue to open things up on the offensive end. I'm not sure the efficacy of the Defensive Win Shares stat, but he ranked #72 in the league last year.

There's no doubt he was a terrible #1 pick, but having Fultz on his new contract a few years from now as a top 50-75 player would be a nice bargain.
 

Swedgin

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2013
701
The Fultz contract is kind of interesting. On the one hand, given his starting point and performance to date it seems like a lot. That said if you assume that he has corrected, for the most part, whatever was afflicting him while in Philly and look at his improvements YoY its not completely unreasonable, especially if he blossoms into something even resembling the player some thought he would be. Frankly, given Orlando's non-status as a current NBA destination, the terms make sense as a sort of upside play. The deal itself is not crippling and can be moved if need be while Fultz gets to continue rehabbing his NBA career in a relatively low pressure environment.
The third year is reportedly a team option. With that news, seems like a reasonable deal.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,191
So the Clippers are paying Marcus Morris and Luke Kennard a combined 4/128M over the next 4 seasons. Interesting strategy.

Not too surprising Danny keeps praying he can find some league average bench players by volume drafting guys like GWill, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard, Edwards et al.
Agreed, though as an over the cap team it is possible Ballmer has said he doesn’t care what it costs if it wins. He’s one guy who literally doesn’t need to care about the lux tax bill.

Before the PG re-signing I’d have said they had to plan for a dual opt out, but at this point they are a taxpayer regardless I’d imagine
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,715
View: https://twitter.com/theathletic/status/1341384558227435520?s=21


“ For instance, The Athletic learned that Harden has had multiple verbal confrontations with teammates in practice on Sunday and Monday, and one confrontation included Harden throwing a basketball at a teammate on Monday.

Sources say Harden and rookie Jae’Sean Tate had a heated exchange during Monday’s practice, culminating in Harden throwing the ball in Tate’s direction. The ball did not hit Tate. Interactions like these between teammates during practice can be part of a normal, competitive environment. Harden, however, is known by those in the organization as a laid-back and calm personality —especially as superstars go — and some around the franchise are viewing this as rising to an uncharacteristic level of frustration given his ongoing situation.”
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,091
View: https://twitter.com/theathletic/status/1341384558227435520?s=21


“ For instance, The Athletic learned that Harden has had multiple verbal confrontations with teammates in practice on Sunday and Monday, and one confrontation included Harden throwing a basketball at a teammate on Monday.

Sources say Harden and rookie Jae’Sean Tate had a heated exchange during Monday’s practice, culminating in Harden throwing the ball in Tate’s direction. The ball did not hit Tate. Interactions like these between teammates during practice can be part of a normal, competitive environment. Harden, however, is known by those in the organization as a laid-back and calm personality —especially as superstars go — and some around the franchise are viewing this as rising to an uncharacteristic level of frustration given his ongoing situation.”
Dude is clearly doing all he can to force his way out. As we know in the NBA, this strategy almost always works for the superstars so it still must be a matter of time before he's dealt. Problem for Houston is that the only team likely to jump on a deal now is the Nets with their pupu platter but Houston has no real incentive to accept that - it's there whenever they want it. Teams like Philly, Miami, Boston, Toronto, etc. are probably perfectly content starting their season with their current roster and seeing how things go. Maybe this prompts a mystery team to jump into the fray.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,848
NYC
Like most of the Port Cellar, I was initially somewhat conflicted on the “do I want Harden on my team?” question. Unlike a lot of Warrior fans, I did not hate Harden; and I was intrigued by the idea of an unguardable Steph-Harden-Klay trio (and by the anecdote about Harden approaching Steph at the all-star game and telling him he wanted to play a better brand of ball). But the Klay injury cooled me on the idea, and Harden’s recent behavior has 100% turned me off. I thought Harden was a pretty chill and likable dude outside of his flopping and ball-hoggery; now I just think he’s a tool. I would not flip Wiseman for Harden straight up (assuming + Wiggins as salary ballast). Being fun to root for matters, and Wiseman/Harden are at the opposite end of that spectrum for me.

Curious to hear Apsith’s take on the situation...