NBA Free Agency Game Thread

Cellar-Door

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I'm confused on this. Could they have really gotten him to sign for less to somehow get GA? How much less did they need?

I see bam is estimated to be at $28M in 21-22 and butler is at $36M. GA is at $28M. What were the other options for getting bam and GA to both be on Miami that bam would have gone for? Or is it a case where teams have so much leverage over a player on their second contract, they would have been able to sign bam for 3 years at a lower number he would have been forced to take?
Order of operations. If instead of giving Bam an extension they let him go to FA, he would only count for his cap hold (more than his salary in the coming year, but well below the max) until he was signed. So they could sign Giannis with cap space, then go over the cap to sign Bam (you can go over the cap for your own FAs).

Edit- looked it up, Bam's cap hold would have been $7.1M
 

kelpapa

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Order of operations. If instead of giving Bam and extension they let him go to FA, he would only count for his cap hold until he was signed. So they could sign Giannis with cap space, then go over the cap to sign Bam (you can go over the cap for your own FAs).
Gotcha. Thanks
 

DGreenwood

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I'm confused on this. Could they have really gotten him to sign for less to somehow get GA? How much less did they need?

I see bam is estimated to be at $28M in 21-22 and butler is at $36M. GA is at $28M. What were the other options for getting bam and GA to both be on Miami that bam would have gone for? Or is it a case where teams have so much leverage over a player on their second contract, they would have been able to sign bam for 3 years at a lower number he would have been forced to take?
Couldn't they let Bam play on his rookie deal until next summer and then sign GA as a free agent? Once GA is signed, they could go over the cap to max Bam with his Bird rights

edit: Sorry, I was beaten to it.
 

BigSoxFan

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Kings don't match, Bogdanovic to Atlanta.
That Hawks team has some real intriguing talent now:

C: Capela / Okongwu
PF: Collins / Gallinari
SF: Hunter / Reddish
SG: Bogdanovich / Huerter
PG: Young / Rondo

No idea how it all meshes and many of those guys are young but, man, that’s a team with some real potential.
 

slamminsammya

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That Hawks team has some real intriguing talent now:

C: Capela / Okongwu
PF: Collins / Gallinari
SF: Hunter / Reddish
SG: Bogdanovich / Huerter
PG: Young / Rondo

No idea how it all meshes and many of those guys are young but, man, that’s a team with some real potential.
Who can defend? There's a lot of holes there.
 

mcpickl

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That Hawks team has some real intriguing talent now:

C: Capela / Okongwu
PF: Collins / Gallinari
SF: Hunter / Reddish
SG: Bogdanovich / Huerter
PG: Young / Rondo

No idea how it all meshes and many of those guys are young but, man, that’s a team with some real potential.
This is a really fun, young roster.

Gonna be a lot of buckets scored in their games.

It's a bit of a weird fit with Gallo and Collins both better as 4s, I'm sure they'd have rather more of a wing with that money, but gotta grab the talent that's available to you.

A Collins for a wing deal would be ideal, but I can't find a fair trade talent and salarywise that makes sense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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That Hawks team has some real intriguing talent now:

C: Capela / Okongwu
PF: Collins / Gallinari
SF: Hunter / Reddish
SG: Bogdanovich / Huerter
PG: Young / Rondo

No idea how it all meshes and many of those guys are young but, man, that’s a team with some real potential.
Doug Moe would have loved to coach this team.
 

luckiestman

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That Hawks team has some real intriguing talent now:

C: Capela / Okongwu
PF: Collins / Gallinari
SF: Hunter / Reddish
SG: Bogdanovich / Huerter
PG: Young / Rondo

No idea how it all meshes and many of those guys are young but, man, that’s a team with some real potential.
I think I need D’antoni to coach this team
 

Cellar-Door

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I knew Trae was bad on defense but this is amazing:
View: https://twitter.com/SportsJO13/status/1333988149471584256


dead last, and he's last by so much that the difference between him and IT (519th) is that he's 28% worse.

The difference between him and 500th place in the league is the same as the difference between 500th and 122nd.

Now DRPM has all kinds of flaws, but being not just the worst but by that kind on margin is insane (also it seems like people who watch a lot of his tape agree that he's possibly a once in a generation level of awful defender). If he can't significantly fix that ATL is not going anywhere.
 

BigSoxFan

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I knew Trae was bad on defense but this is amazing:
View: https://twitter.com/SportsJO13/status/1333988149471584256


dead last, and he's last by so much that the difference between him and IT (519th) is that he's 28% worse.

The difference between him and 500th place in the league is the same as the difference between 500th and 122nd.

Now DRPM has all kinds of flaws, but being not just the worst but by that kind on margin is insane (also it seems like people who watch a lot of his tape agree that he's possibly a once in a generation level of awful defender). If he can't significantly fix that ATL is not going anywhere.
Yeah, it’s pretty obviously directionally correct at least. If you net out offense/defense, he’s #98.

Crazy that Theis is 2nd in DRPM and Marcus is 65th.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, it’s pretty obviously directionally correct at least. If you net out offense/defense, he’s #98.

Crazy that Theis is 2nd in DRPM and Marcus is 65th.
One thing DRPM is bad at is players whose coaches always put them in favorable matchups, since it makes them look awesome against control groups. Theis definitely benefits from that.
 

Jimbodandy

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One thing DRPM is bad at is players whose coaches always put them in favorable matchups, since it makes them look awesome against control groups. Theis definitely benefits from that.
Also known as the Brad Stevens Rule. More specifically, the Amir Johnson Postulate.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Is Trae Young's defense more a product of effort or physical shortcomings? He's obviously a player you build a team around but I wouldn't want to be the one building the team. He's going to be special on offense but he's going to have to be very special to actually be worth the max contact he's going to get.

Looking at Young's measurements, he has no standing reach (7'11), small hands (8 inches long, 9.25 wide)) and an awful wingspan (6'2 or 6'3 depending on what you read). Carsen Edwards wingspan is 3.25 inches longer (6'6.25), his standing reach is one inch less and his hands are 8.5 inches long, 9.25 wide. On another note, I never would have guessed 5'11 Carsen Edwards has a 6'6.25 wingspan. For reference, IT4's wingspan is 6'2 at 5'9. Only an inch less or the same as Youngs.

So I answered my own question. At the very least, it's physical shortcomings. Probably effort too, but that can be fixed. I'm 5'9 with a 6'4 wingspan, a 7'9 standing reach, and 8' long 9.75" wide hands. Granted I have long ass arms but I'm a good 4 inches shorter than Young and have superior measurements outside of standing reach.

How is he so good on offense with those (for an NBA player, average for a male) alligator arms and less than stellar length? He's not particularly strong either. He can bench his weight about 15 times (180 lbs). Elite range and playmaking will get you far in today's NBA.
 

Jimbodandy

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How is he so good on offense with those (for an NBA player, average for a male) alligator arms and less than stellar length? He's not particularly strong either. He can bench his weight about 15 times (180 lbs). Elite range and playmaking will get you far in today's NBA.
If you can get your shot off in a phone booth and hit it at a high rate, all doors open for you. Add elite range, decent enough handle and footspeed, and good vision/passing, and it really doesn't matter much if he's a trex. You can build around him.
 

lovegtm

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If you can get your shot off in a phone booth and hit it at a high rate, all doors open for you. Add elite range, decent enough handle and footspeed, and good vision/passing, and it really doesn't matter much if he's a trex. You can build around him.
You can build around him for the regular season. I’m really skeptical that you can build a title contender against someone that bad defensively. He’d have to have the equivalent of Tatum on the wing and Gobert in the middle covering for him.
 

the moops

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You can build around him for the regular season. I’m really skeptical that you can build a title contender against someone that bad defensively. He’d have to have the equivalent of Tatum on the wing and Gobert in the middle covering for him.
Unless he becomes Curry like in his defense as well as offense, they can't build a contender with him as their star
 

Jimbodandy

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You can build around him for the regular season. I’m really skeptical that you can build a title contender against someone that bad defensively. He’d have to have the equivalent of Tatum on the wing and Gobert in the middle covering for him.
You'd have to do it right for sure, but I'm imagining him in either of Toronto or Miami's zone from last year’s playoffs and not seeing a problem. Or imagining him in some of those WC bubble series matchups where they just went all gunslinger on each other. I think that a good construction can be done.
 

Devizier

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So I answered my own question. At the very least, it's physical shortcomings. Probably effort too, but that can be fixed. I'm 5'9 with a 6'4 wingspan, a 7'9 standing reach, and 8' long 9.75" wide hands. Granted I have long ass arms but I'm a good 4 inches shorter than Young and have superior measurements outside of standing reach.
APE index of 1.10 (+7) is enormous. That basically puts you on par with elite rock climbers.
 

PedroKsBambino

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You'd have to do it right for sure, but I'm imagining him in either of Toronto or Miami's zone from last year’s playoffs and not seeing a problem. Or imagining him in some of those WC bubble series matchups where they just went all gunslinger on each other. I think that a good construction can be done.
That is the right design, and I'm still not sure he can hold up his end defensively. Even in a zone he's covering a set of space and effectively 1-2 players as they run actions into his space, and he's going to be beat regularly and have guys get clean looks in his zone. You can cover some, but only so much. He just needs to show more effort---at a minimum---to be able to be part of a good team I believe.

I almost wonder if the least-bad way to use him is as the floater in a modified box and one setup, where he tries to provide extra coverage on one of the perimeter players and they just manage the rest of the defense with four guys. You'd give up a bunch of good corner looks and be vulnerable to penetration, but if you've got Okongwu and/or Capela on the backline you have some ways to cover for the penetration. That role would hurt him offensively wtih all the running around, so perhaps not? But all evidence is he's so atrocious on-ball you really can't go with him in a traditional defense and expect to stop good teams when it matters.
 

Cesar Crespo

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You'd have to do it right for sure, but I'm imagining him in either of Toronto or Miami's zone from last year’s playoffs and not seeing a problem. Or imagining him in some of those WC bubble series matchups where they just went all gunslinger on each other. I think that a good construction can be done.
Miami may not have Tatum and Gobert, but they do have Butler and Bam. They could probably hide his defense in Milwaukee too but I'm not sure how Young and Giannis would mesh on offense.

In almost any scenario where you build around him to compete, Young would probably slip to 2nd best player on the team. Kinda makes me wonder about John Collins defense and how much of an impact Trae has on it. If Collins could play average defense, he would get the max he is asking for.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is Trae Young's defense more a product of effort or physical shortcomings? He's obviously a player you build a team around but I wouldn't want to be the one building the team. He's going to be special on offense but he's going to have to be very special to actually be worth the max contact he's going to get.

Looking at Young's measurements, he has no standing reach (7'11), small hands (8 inches long, 9.25 wide)) and an awful wingspan (6'2 or 6'3 depending on what you read). Carsen Edwards wingspan is 3.25 inches longer (6'6.25), his standing reach is one inch less and his hands are 8.5 inches long, 9.25 wide. On another note, I never would have guessed 5'11 Carsen Edwards has a 6'6.25 wingspan. For reference, IT4's wingspan is 6'2 at 5'9. Only an inch less or the same as Youngs.

So I answered my own question. At the very least, it's physical shortcomings. Probably effort too, but that can be fixed. I'm 5'9 with a 6'4 wingspan, a 7'9 standing reach, and 8' long 9.75" wide hands. Granted I have long ass arms but I'm a good 4 inches shorter than Young and have superior measurements outside of standing reach.

How is he so good on offense with those (for an NBA player, average for a male) alligator arms and less than stellar length? He's not particularly strong either. He can bench his weight about 15 times (180 lbs). Elite range and playmaking will get you far in today's NBA.
Mostly physical but when a player is asked to carry the offensive load he has to learn when to get his rest on the defensive end. The problem with Trae is that, unlike someone like LeBron who can easily hide for a couple possessions, he can’t take a possession off or else his man will either blow by or stick him into a screen. This team will be fun to watch but I’m already ready to lock in a nice “Under” on their win total and feel very confident about it.
 

Cesar Crespo

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APE index of 1.10 (+7) is enormous. That basically puts you on par with elite rock climbers.
Yeah, which is why I'm surprised about Edwards. I guess I've never actually seen him with his arms fully extended though. He's not much taller than me and when I stand straight up, my hands are maybe an inch above my knee caps.

And I just googled a picture of Carsen... and he definitely is a wingspan warrior.

36730
 

bakahump

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Neither a here or there.....But....
I wonder if Shorter arms are a function and not a bug. Like "shorter Guys are better shooters" (both FT and regular).

Less "moving parts" if you will.

Is this a universal absolute? Of course not. But shorter arms may lend themselves to more repeatable shot mechanics???

Young will make alot of money playing half the Game of BB.

Those numbers are hilarious BTW. I wonder what a guy who just stood still would get for a rating.
 

the moops

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What are everyone's best and worst FA signings this year? The good and bad come in all different shapes and sizes.


THE BAD
Hayward 4/120
Morris 4/64
Grant 3/60
Plumlee 3/25

THE GOOD
VanVleet 4/85
Wood 3/41
Crowder 3/29
Ibaka 2/19
Gasol 2/5
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Neither a here or there.....But....
I wonder if Shorter arms are a function and not a bug. Like "shorter Guys are better shooters" (both FT and regular).

Less "moving parts" if you will.

Is this a universal absolute? Of course not. But shorter arms may lend themselves to more repeatable shot mechanics???
We’re certainly hoping this is true for Grant Williams, who makes a T-Rex look like Inspector Gadget.
 

BigSoxFan

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I still can't get over the Hawks choosing Trae over Luka.
It was a bad move then and now looks even worse given Luka's ascension to stardom. Young is always going to be putting up big, sexy offensive numbers but his overall impact will never come close to approaching Luka. And they made that swap so that they could get another pick, which turned out to be a guy in Cam Reddish who might be decent but doesn't really profile as anything special.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Neither a here or there.....But....
I wonder if Shorter arms are a function and not a bug. Like "shorter Guys are better shooters" (both FT and regular).

Less "moving parts" if you will.

Is this a universal absolute? Of course not. But shorter arms may lend themselves to more repeatable shot mechanics???

Young will make alot of money playing half the Game of BB.

Those numbers are hilarious BTW. I wonder what a guy who just stood still would get for a rating.
Kevin Durant is my brother in arms with a wingspan 7 inches longer than his height.

On the other end, Steph Curry is 6'3 with a 6'4 wingspan.
Khris Middleton's is 4 inches
Larry Bird was 1 inch
Dirk's was 6 inches
Reddick is -1 inch
McDermotts is 2.25
George Hills is 6 inches
Can't find Duncans
Bertans is even
Joe Harris is even
Reggie Miller was 5
Korver is 2
Ray Allens was 3
Nash was 2.


You may be on to something minus a few exceptions. FWIW, I can't shoot for shit.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It was a bad move then and now looks even worse given Luka's ascension to stardom. Young is always going to be putting up big, sexy offensive numbers but his overall impact will never come close to approaching Luka. And they made that swap so that they could get another pick, which turned out to be a guy in Cam Reddish who might be decent but doesn't really profile as anything special.
Not a perfect comparison, but Trae Young is this generations Iverson.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Not a perfect comparison, but Trae Young is this generations Iverson.
I don't think that's a valid comparison--Iverson was a physical freak who was a terrific defensive player at least before he had to focus exclusively on offense. He led league in steals three times, four seasons in top 20 in defensive win shares....neither at all perfect but speak to him having defensive impact. He is in another world in terms of strength and physical tools AND in terms of intensity than Trae.

I get the height and offense comparison but teams couldn't hunt Iverson defensively---too strong, too quick, too talented. If he played today he'd face some mismatches and give up points, but he'd create a lot of positive defensive plays too. Young's problem is there is nothign he can do defensively whatsoever.
 

Kliq

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I don't think that's a valid comparison--Iverson was a physical freak who was a terrific defensive player at least before he had to focus exclusively on offense. He led league in steals three times, four seasons in top 20 in defensive win shares....neither at all perfect but speak to him having defensive impact. He is in another world in terms of strength and physical tools AND in terms of intensity than Trae.

I get the height and offense comparison but teams couldn't hunt Iverson defensively---too strong, too quick, too talented. If he played today he'd face some mismatches and give up points, but he'd create a lot of positive defensive plays too. Young's problem is there is nothign he can do defensively whatsoever.
We've had this argument before, but Iverson by his own admission was a very bad defensive player who had to have an entire team built around him to hide his defensive limitations (had to play with a tall PG like Eric Snow, for example) and also benefited by having the best defensive player alive protecting the rim behind him during his best years. Steals and DWS don't mean anything.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don't think that's a valid comparison--Iverson was a physical freak who was a terrific defensive player at least before he had to focus exclusively on offense. He led league in steals three times, four seasons in top 20 in defensive win shares....neither at all perfect but speak to him having defensive impact. He is in another world in terms of strength and physical tools AND in terms of intensity than Trae.

I get the height and offense comparison but teams couldn't hunt Iverson defensively---too strong, too quick, too talented. If he played today he'd face some mismatches and give up points, but he'd create a lot of positive defensive plays too. Young's problem is there is nothign he can do defensively whatsoever.
That's why it's not a perfect comparison. Trae Young will probably lead the league in scoring a few times and spent most of his career on losing teams. He will be overrated by many and be in MVP discussions.

On another note

Grant Williams wingspan is 5 inches longer.
Aaron Nesmith 6 inches
Carsen Edwards 7.25 inches
Waters 3.5 inches
Pritchard 2 inches
Langford 5.5 inches
Time Lord 10!!!! Inches. Jesus.

Tatum: 3 inches
Brown: 6 inches
Smart: 6 inches

Hopefully wingspan doesn't affect shooting too much because most of our prospects have pretty healthy wingspans.
 

nighthob

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You need to look at both wingspan and standing reach, Tatum’s +3/+4, but his arms are long whereas Williams has shorter arms but a +4/+5 wingspan. Part of the difference is that Williams is built like a tank and Tatum’s not. So he has raw wingspan, but not anything like the reach due to his wingspan being largely a function of the distance between his shoulders. It’s why Jae Crowder has 3” on Marcus Smart but the exact same reach despite having a 6’9” wingspan.
 

Cesar Crespo

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You need to look at both wingspan and standing reach, Tatum’s +3/+4, but his arms are long whereas Williams has shorter arms but a +4/+5 wingspan. Part of the difference is that Williams is built like a tank and Tatum’s not. So he has raw wingspan, but not anything like the reach due to his wingspan being largely a function of the difference between his shoulders. It’s why Jae Crowder has 3” on Marcus Smart but the exact same reach despite having a 6’9” wingspan.

The more I look, there are too many exceptions to think arm length has much to do with shot.
 

PedroKsBambino

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That's why it's not a perfect comparison. Trae Young will probably lead the league in scoring a few times and spent most of his career on losing teams. He will be overrated by many and be in MVP discussions.
Yes, and my point is that it is not that it is an imperfect overall comparison it is that it is wildely inaccurate. That said, if your point is that they are similar offensively (and you note leading the league in scoring) that's totally reasonable. But defensively these guys are not in the same universe and that matters a great deal.