NBA Finals: Celtics vs Mavs

Who wins?

  • Celtics in 4

    Votes: 22 5.0%

  • Celtics in 5

    Votes: 120 27.3%

  • Celtics in 6

    Votes: 222 50.6%

  • Celtics in 7

    Votes: 52 11.8%

  • Mavs in 4-5

    Votes: 3 0.7%

  • Mavs in 6-7

    Votes: 20 4.6%
  • Total voters
    439
  • Poll closed .
ragnarok725

ragnarok725

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Have to be ecstatic with how this has gone so far. The Ca are just getting much higher quality looks on average. The only thing that kept this close was the three point variance. If the variance goes the other way and the Cs have a 40-45% night it'll be a 25+ point blowout.

I don't think the Mavs have a tactical option available to fix the matchup bind they're in. The Cs have the PnR game really clogged up on defense and are able to blow by guys 1:1 and force rotation/advantage at will.

I'll say it because I'm not in the locker room. I think this is over. Shit could happen, but I don't think it will.
 
TomRicardo

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slamminsammya said:
It really is incredible the impact a simple thing like being able to put Tatum on Gafford / Lively makes on their entire offense. I don't think Ive seen Luka put someone in jail once in these two games. And they have what, 2 dunks from pnr? This after having 54 dunks over 18 games.
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Tatum has been playing the 5 since Cleveland. I think it was prep for the Nuggets as he would be the best person to put on Joker. His Bill Russell / Draymond game has been fantastic but he has been awful with his 3s and is starting to get a bit weak going to the hoop. It is a lot to ask.
 
DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Took care of business at home. Box score stuff doesn't matter this time of year. Wins, trophies, rings and banners are the only currency.

Using attention to set up open teammates is paying off. They have five games to get two more wins and they can be of the ugly variety as long as they get them.
 
PedroKsBambino

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Saying Tatum had a bad game one is totally different than saying he should take a specific shot tonight.

Many of us who have been watching the team all year thought and commented that he was hesitant at times tonight; that has nothing to do with a comment about him being bad in game one, though.

I would guess most of us want more scoring from him than we saw tonight. And, I’d guess most of us recognise how much he contributed defensively, rebounding, passing, and initiating. It all counts, and the shooting should be better. But the big picture matters too—-he’s playing well overall, in a great team context, and there’s a lot more to his game than the shots. So we should all remember the full game not just the shooting…and to me it’s still nuts to say he’s played a bad game one. Or even a bad game two.
 
R

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Celtics win by 20 if they shoot half decent… I like our chances.

I didn’t see any replay of a KP injury but hoping it was nothing major and he can play 20 min a game the rest of the way.

Luka’s injuries are so fake (in my entirely made up semi-educated opinion).

No one knows when he hurt his knee and ankle, it apparently didn’t get any better with rest, now he walks out during starting lineup with a huge ice wrap across his chest. Drama Queen x 10, a bit embarrassing actually.
 
wade boggs chicken dinner

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Euclis20 said:
There are like 5 potential good outcomes from Gafford posting Tatum:

-Points
-Picking up fouls on Tatum
-Tiring out Tatum
-Giving Kyrie/Luka a rest on offense
-Forcing Boston to change their gameplan

At some point they have to consider just spamming this. Their offense is just completely stuck in the mud, and the big/Luka pick and roll is their bread and butter.
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They not only can use Gafford to go at JT, it's not that difficult given BOS's scheme to get Gafford against a guard, which they did twice I think. But I guess throwing into a big man to post up a little guy doesn't showcase Luka's abilities enough.

They also ran a play where Luka popped out and got a wide-open corner 3P but after trying to run it again (I think!) the next time down, I don't think they ran it again.

I wonder what off-ball actions CJM would run if he had Luka?

RorschachsMask said:
I don’t even remember what a world without Jrue as a Celtic looks like.
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The world was much more stagnant and there was a lot more hero shots and a lot less cutting.
 
TomRicardo

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Euclis20 said:
There are like 5 potential good outcomes from Gafford posting Tatum:

-Points
-Picking up fouls on Tatum
-Tiring out Tatum
-Giving Kyrie/Luka a rest on offense
-Forcing Boston to change their gameplan

At some point they have to consider just spamming this. Their offense is just completely stuck in the mud, and the big/Luka pick and roll is their bread and butter.
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No.

There is a reason they can't get the post going. The most likely outcome is Tatum forcing an awkward shot away from the hoop. Second most likely is Tatum intercepts the pass. Time and time again, Luka and Kyrie have seen Tatum have position on Gafford and realized nope not a good idea.
 
lovegtm

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Jimbodandy said:
A lot of the prediction of adjustments were accurate (not mine, but some here). Luka seeking anyone shorter than him and trying to post. Dallas still helping on Tatum but being more disciplined there, so the threes we were getting weren't as open or in rhythm. Their defense was appreciably better overall. Oh, and they were looking harder for the lobs and executing the passes and finishes more crisply. All of this plus some ball variance, and it was much more of a game. This team though.
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The 3s were pretty good quality imo. There were some ugly ones, but they were consistently generating good looks for good shooters off good actions.

Variance, imo. That was a 35 point win masked as a close game.
 
lovegtm

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reggiecleveland said:
I don't see a ton of adjustments being made by Dallas so far. Ido however expect Kyrie with fans cheering for him will play much better and a split on the road would be a great accomplishment.
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There aren't adjustments to be made. If they had 'em, this was the game we'd have seen 'em.

Personnel is too much to overcome: Luka and their centers get toasted repeatedly on the perimeter. I've never seen a game with that many drive-and-kick possessions. Boston drove over and over and over, and it's always against Luka or the centers. Ruthless gameplan, well executed.
 
lovegtm

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BigSoxFan said:
They were down 5 with 1:15 and were a tremendous defensive play from being down 3 with 50ish seconds left. They need Kyrie to play better but there is a path for Dallas wins. A narrow one but it exists. If Celtics get normal shooting Tatum, that likely offsets any potential Kyrie scoring gains.
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That path involves Boston missing every open three pointer for 4 out of 5 games. Because that's the only way Dallas was remotely in the game tonight, and those open looks for Boston aren't going anywhere. They simply can't contain the dribble, and Boston is relentlessly exploiting that.
 
J

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I think the Cs took 8 shots that were not in the key or 3s, and only 1 that looks like it would be classified as a long 2. The shot quality was incredible. Hard to believe they only scored 105. Do that 2 more times and this series is over.
 
Jimbodandy

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lovegtm said:
The 3s were pretty good quality imo. There were some ugly ones, but they were consistently generating good looks for good shooters off good actions.

Variance, imo. That was a 35 point win masked as a close game.
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Agreed. Good quality. I'd say that the degree of "open" was mitigated better by Dallas being a tad more disciplined in their help than G1. I doubt that we'll see as many screen grabs of two on Tatum, with two within an arm's length, and 3-4 guys at the line with nobody within earshot. The overhelping wasn't as bad. Still wasn't great. Ball luck was the main thing for sure.
 
riboflav

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reggiecleveland said:
I don't see a ton of adjustments being made by Dallas so far. Ido however expect Kyrie with fans cheering for him will play much better and a split on the road would be a great accomplishment.
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Just some tweaks. They got the Boston centers more involved in the pick and roll defense but even then if Dallas popped it was above the break and the Cs were comfortable ignoring that. They at times loaded up even more on JT as hard as that is to believe and would collapse hard on him and JB. Early on, they had Luka low in their zone and he wasn't tested much defensively. That, obviously changed a lot as the game went on. They had Gafford post up for a bit and then was like wasn't that cool, let's stop. It's also Gafford so you know.

There were no significant changes (bad sign for Dallas) or overhauls (that might be desperate for Dallas in game B).
 
lovegtm

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riboflav

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Jimbodandy said:
Agreed. Good quality. I'd say that the degree of "open" was mitigated better by Dallas being a tad more disciplined in their help than G1. I doubt that we'll see as many screen grabs of two on Tatum, with two within an arm's length, and 3-4 guys at the line with nobody within earshot. The overhelping wasn't as bad. Still wasn't great. Ball luck was the main thing for sure.
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Somewhat, yes, but as the game went on this was less so and was generally overstated by the broadcast.
 
RorschachsMask

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I came into this series confident as hell, and I’m far moreso now.

Matchups matter, and the Celtics are a nightmare one for Dallas, and most teams lol.
 
lovegtm

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riboflav said:
There were multiple possessions where he caught the ball on the perimeter and he'd have a second level defender standing right behind the first level defender. You rarely see that.
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If Dallas doesn't do that, 6-22 would turn into 15-22 real quick, because he'd be getting endless easy layups or dunks. They can't contain him on the perimeter, like not remotely.
 
riboflav

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Luka can play this series one on one and Tatum has to play one on two and sometimes one on three and only like 15 people in the world understand this?
 
riboflav

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lovegtm said:
If Dallas doesn't do that, 6-22 would turn into 15-22 real quick, because he'd be getting endless easy layups or dunks. They can't contain him on the perimeter, like not remotely.
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Preaching to the choir! Also, to give Kidd some credit he agrees with you.
 
PedroKsBambino

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lovegtm said:
There aren't adjustments to be made. If they had 'em, this was the game we'd have seen 'em.

Personnel is too much to overcome: Luka and their centers get toasted repeatedly on the perimeter. I've never seen a game with that many drive-and-kick possessions. Boston drove over and over and over, and it's always against Luka or the centers. Ruthless gameplan, well executed.
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yup. Dallas has structural challenges at each end—-they don’t have a way to defend five out AND protect the rim defensively; and they only have two creators (or really even reliable shooters) offensively.

Role players stepping up at home can help the second, but on the first they just have to hope for a lot of misses. And tonight that wasn’t even enough
 
lovegtm

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PedroKsBambino said:
yup. Dallas has structural challenges at each end—-they don’t have a way to defend five out AND protect the rim defensively; and they only have two creators (or really even reliable shooters) offensively.

Role players stepping up at home can help the second, but on the first they just have to hope for a lot of misses. And tonight that wasn’t even enough
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Right. This was the game for them to win. The one where Boston misses everything and Luka can't miss any contested midrangers.
 
J

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lovegtm said:
Joe is so, so good. People have no idea. This is one of the best 2-way gameplans I've seen in awhile, for its completeness, attention to detail, and player buy-in.

That was the best game I've seen this version of the Celtics play. I'm not sure it's close? The way they stuck to the plan to drive and rim read, again and again, was really impressive.
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Agree with this. When they play with any kind of pace (and they have been good about not walking the ball up), JT and JB are getting into the lane at will, often with 10-12 seconds on the shot clock. That’s an eternity to be in rotation against any team, but especially against this Celtics team.
 
lovegtm

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Jakarta said:
Agree with this. When they play with any kind of pace (and they have been good about not walking the ball up), JT and JB are getting into the lane at will, often with 10-12 seconds on the shot clock. That’s an eternity to be in rotation against any team, but especially against this Celtics team.
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They don't even need that much pace. As long as they get the switch for Luka or a center on JB/Tatum with more than 12 on the shot clock, it's going to go badly for Dallas.

I haven't seen a team be this screwed since the 2015 Warriors cracked Cleveland's scheme of trapping Curry (after going down 2-1) and then played the rest of the series 4 on 3.
 
riboflav

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Depending on KP's health, if I'm Kidd down 2-0, I spend 24 hours watching film and in meetings with my staff about changing the Tatum rules. Maybe he's in a shooting slump and in his head (I don't think so as I think it's more of a product about how the defense is to take him away as a scorer like they did to Ant) and make him beat you as a scorer, make him not have 12 assists but aim for 3 or 4. Take his playmaking away and see if we get Tatum on the road scoring 40 (which of course we've seen before) but here we are. You're down 2-0. If life is hard you have to change - Shannon Hoon.
 
riboflav

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What Kidd did tonight mostly in the first half was to double down on his approach to the Celtics defensively while tweaking his offense on the margins.
 
lovegtm

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riboflav said:
Depending on KP's health, if I'm Kidd down 2-0, I spend 24 hours watching film and in meetings with my staff about changing the Tatum rules. Maybe he's in a shooting slump and in his head (I don't think so as I think it's more of a product about how the defense is take him away as a scorer like they did to Ant) and make him beat you as a scorer, make him not have 12 assists but aim for 3 or 4. Take his playmaking away and see if we get Tatum on the road scoring 40 (which of course we've seen before) but here we are. You're down 2-0. If life is hard you have to change - Shannon Hoon.
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I mean, isn't Tatum just going to say "thank you very much" and take his easier layups? He wasn't shy about taking them in this one, even though he missed some, and they'd be much easier looks if Dallas relaxed the Tatum rules.

At least this way you can have 3 point shot variance work in your favor (like it did tonight tbh).

I think Kidd actually played it mostly right, and it mostly worked about as well as it could.
 
R

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Celtics won by 7 and could have EASILY gone 15-39 instead of 10-39 on 3s. Honestly 20-39 was possible with that many open looks. Should have won by 20+

Felt like Tiger in his prime shooting 70 and winning by 2 when he could have easily shot 64 and killed everyone with normal luck.
 
TomRicardo

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riboflav said:
Depending on KP's health, if I'm Kidd down 2-0, I spend 24 hours watching film and in meetings with my staff about changing the Tatum rules. Maybe he's in a shooting slump and in his head (I don't think so as I think it's more of a product about how the defense is take him away as a scorer like they did to Ant) and make him beat you as a scorer, make him not have 12 assists but aim for 3 or 4. Take his playmaking away and see if we get Tatum on the road scoring 40 (which of course we've seen before) but here we are. You're down 2-0. If life is hard you have to change - Shannon Hoon.
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I suggested having Luka play drop off of him. They did a little of it tonight but I think Luka was just being lazy. The problem with it was Kyrie let Jrue cut over and over and over and over or he let Derrick White stay wide open for 3s.

It is not just Luka's defense. I think you could mitigate it. It is Kyrie giving about six seconds of effort each Celtics possession then screwing off.
 
riboflav

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lovegtm said:
I mean, isn't Tatum just going to say "thank you very much" and take his easier layups? He wasn't shy about taking them in this one, even though he missed some, and they'd be much easier looks if Dallas relaxed the Tatum rules.

At least this way you can have 3 point shot variance work in your favor (like it did tonight tbh).

I think Kidd actually played it mostly right, and it mostly worked about as well as it could.
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Oh I agree but you're also down 2-0 and if you keep doubling down on your current strategy you're screwed. I mean I am like you in that I'm racking my brain to come up with a solution for Dallas. And, all I was saying is that as a coach you need to entertain this idea and discuss it.
 
lovegtm

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riboflav said:
Oh I agree but you're also down 2-0 and if you keep doubling down on your current strategy you're screwed. I mean I am like you in that I'm racking my brain to come up with a solution for Dallas. And, all I was saying is that as a coach you need to entertain this idea and discuss it.
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Yeah, maybe you try some of the wackier stuff for a couple possessions and see how it goes.

Loosened Tatum Rules

Back off Brown/Tatum (slightly) and dare them to shoot rather than drive

Hope your roleplayers can hit 3s with homecooking
 
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