NBA Finals: Celtics vs Mavs

Who wins?

  • Celtics in 4

    Votes: 22 5.0%
  • Celtics in 5

    Votes: 120 27.3%
  • Celtics in 6

    Votes: 222 50.6%
  • Celtics in 7

    Votes: 52 11.8%
  • Mavs in 4-5

    Votes: 3 0.7%
  • Mavs in 6-7

    Votes: 20 4.6%

  • Total voters
    439
  • Poll closed .

tims4wins

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There are some similarities. I mean both team made adjustments (2022 BOS in scheme; 2024 DAL in personnel/scheme) that unlocked some of their potential. Then both teams ran into teams that had the personnel to counter their scheme (BOS with putting a wing on the bigs; GSW by making Horford and TL defend in space and mucking it up against JB/JT).

I feel like BOS 2022 was a longer and more dominant run thought.

I also feel like 2022 BOS had the advantage that they had two wings who certainly were good enough to win a championship and BOS just had to find the correct pieces around them. I don't know if DAL can ever win a championship the way Luka currently plays defense. I mean even Jokic realized that to win the title he was going to have to get in NBA shape and start trying on defense.
2022 Bos also won 2 games in those finals and had a lead late in game 5. As opposed to the 2024 Mavs who are getting swept.
 

bankshot1

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2022 Bos also won 2 games in those finals and had a lead late in game 5. As opposed to the 2024 Mavs who are getting swept.
The Celts had a lead with about 5 minutes to go in G4 in the 22 Finals They were minutes away from taking a 3-1 series lead. Then the moment and series got to big for them and they sort of deteriorated. I think the case can easily be made if they could have closed out that 4Q, they would have won #18 in 22, but they lacked the maturity or intensity to close against a determined and tough opponent. It is the one real question I had about the Celts coming into this year. Are they tough enough?
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Are they for sale anywhere?
Anybody find a place to buy one of those Walton shirts?
Looks like they’re for sale now on the Celtics website:
https://www.celticsstore.com/mens-fanatics-bill-walton-black-boston-celtics-t-shirt

Edit: proceeds will go to The UC San Diego Hillcrest Outpatient Pavilion Fund:
In celebration of Bill Walton's incredible life, the NBA family is excited to collaborate with UC San Diego Hillcrest Outpatient Pavilion Fund and Fanatics on this exclusive t-shirt. The NBA will donate all proceeds from the sale of each t-shirt directly to The UC San Diego Hillcrest Outpatient Pavilion Fund. For more information, please visit giveto.ucsd.edu. Bill Walton was a dominant force when he stepped on the court. Pay homage to one of the most iconic figures in the game of basketball by grabbing this Boston Celtics T-Shirt from Fanatics. This shirt features special graphics that highlight Walton's love for life and will help you remember just how special he was.
 

BigSoxFan

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The Celts had a lead with about 5 minutes to go in G4 in the 22 Finals They were minutes away from taking a 3-1 series lead. Then the moment and series got to big for them and they sort of deteriorated. I think the case can easily be made if they could have closed out that 4Q, they would have won #18 in 22, but they lacked the maturity or intensity to close against a determined and tough opponent. It is the one real question I had about the Celts coming into this year. Are they tough enough?
Really was disappointing. They would have dropped Game 5 in GS and would have had a chance to close it out in G6 at home. Of course, they had a chance to extend it to 7 and shit their pants.

Sunday night will be a great test for them. Win and you control the series. Lose and it’s a 5 game series with Mavs having home court and some real momentum.
 

dhellers

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The Celts had a lead with about 5 minutes to go in G4 in the 22 Finals They were minutes away from taking a 3-1 series lead. Then the moment and series got to big for them and they sort of deteriorated. I think the case can easily be made if they could have closed out that 4Q, they would have won #18 in 22, but they lacked the maturity or intensity to close against a determined and tough opponent. It is the one real question I had about the Celts coming into this year. Are they tough enough?
Isn't the common wisdom that the first game they hit the Warriors with an onslaught that their easy path through the west didn't prepare them for?
But as the series wore on their exhaustion caught up to them ... the letting the prior series (such as against Toronto) go on TOO LONG was their undoing.

I don't see those preconditions in 2024!
 

Jakarta

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The problem for the Mavs with trying to muck it up is that they need all 5 guys to be onboard with that against this Celtics team. Luka and Kyrie aren’t able to do it so even if it works for the other guys on the floor, the Celtics can just get the ball to DW or JH and let them attack the weak points and there is likely less help coming off JT and JB.

It also works in the Celtics favor on defense. If the refs are allowing both teams to muck it up, the Cs will completely exhaust Luka and Kyrie and then the Mavs have no offense.

I think the Mavs play a lot more Kleber and Hardaway in game 2, to play their own version of 5 out. It leaves them with no rim protection, but maybe they try to win the math game by encouraging the Cs to drive for 2s.
 

bankshot1

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Isn't the common wisdom that the first game they hit the Warriors with an onslaught that their easy path through the west didn't prepare them for?
But as the series wore on their exhaustion caught up to them ... the letting the prior series (such as against Toronto) go on TOO LONG was their undoing.

I don't see those preconditions in 2024!
Screw common wisdom, the facts were they were up 2-1 and had a 4Q lead at home with 5 minutes to go in G4. Most good teams win that game . Celts were a championship ready team in '22 and minutes away from taking a 3-1 lead. But they couldn't close. They wilted at home and never recovered. That type of play in OT and late and close games persisted into '23, (the Celts were IIRC 4-10 in OT games last year, made no sense for a team that played .700 ball) and gave credence to the concerns about their mental toughness and ability to close. This year it hasn't been the problem it was last year. But as we've seen from the talking heads, that narrative is out there, and will be until they close the fucking deal.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Many of us here were harping before the series on how he is a complete defensive liability, but it was seemingly swept under the rug by most media outlets. Or frequently downplayed. He shuffles, swipes, and that is IT.
I have to say, I listened to a couple of non-Celtic podcasts and I don't think I heard one talk about how much of a liability Luka is on defense. Certainly Lowe went on and on about his "offensive genius" but not one word I can remember about his defense.

I know at least some people are talking about it now.
 

Justthetippett

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Isn't the common wisdom that the first game they hit the Warriors with an onslaught that their easy path through the west didn't prepare them for?
But as the series wore on their exhaustion caught up to them ... the letting the prior series (such as against Toronto) go on TOO LONG was their undoing.

I don't see those preconditions in 2024!
Curry also had something to do with this (14-26 FGs, 7-14 3pt, 43 pts) in G4. Jrue would have been a nice add on that team!
 

riboflav

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Agree with 1 and 2.

Does 3 move the needle? PJ Washington was their 2nd best player and he's their 4. Putting PJ at the 5 is interesting on offense because they could play 5 out but most of Dallas's offensive identity is based off of having a 5 who can pick and then rim run (their defense is also based off of limiting shots at the rim and putting PJ at the 5 compromises that)

I think the one adjustment Kidd has is to try and muck it up and play a halfcourt game. I don't think there's much of an ace in the hole other than that
Catching up on this thread so maybe this has been addressed already.. If you're asking Dallas to go that small, aren't you overhauling their system and what they have practiced and played like all year? That is almost desperation time. So, yes, I'm agreeing with you here.
 

riboflav

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I think you just have to cover the three point shooters, bait Tatum and Brown into driving, and confusing them with late help.

Yes, I know that is easier said than done. But if the alternative is just letting Boston drive and kick out for open threes, this isn't going to be a long series.
I see what you're saying but in practice this would get Dallas crushed. If you glue to the other three on the perimeter and then send late help it's a problem for two reasons:

1. That late help better be there and be elite bc Tatum or Brown are going to feast on And-1s

2. If the late help is successful, Tatum especially, and now we're starting to see this from Brown, are going to find a wide open shooter. Both have the ability to anticipate late help and pass to the perimeter.. Tatum more so in that he will hit guys in the so-called shot pocket. Brown isn't as consistent but he's improving.

Finally, I don't think you can confuse Tatum anymore. Maybe you catch him off guard for a couple quarters and it's enough to win you a game. But, it won't last. You will lose.
 

lovegtm

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I think you just have to cover the three point shooters, bait Tatum and Brown into driving, and confusing them with late help.

Yes, I know that is easier said than done. But if the alternative is just letting Boston drive and kick out for open threes, this isn't going to be a long series.
The problem is that this was Dallas' EXACT gameplan, and Tatum/Brown ripped it apart. Dallas was sending late rim help on almost every drive, and they read it really well.

They've seen that scheme so, so many times now, and it doesn't faze them.

Thanks for the reps, Spo!
 

riboflav

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I thought the Mavs already did try to goon it up a bit. Lots of shoving on the perimeter but our savvier vets took advantage by either drawing fouls or just curling right around them into the paint. KP took one all the way to the rim for a flush. Tatum has been dealing with this kind of D all season. A team like the Heat just plays that way always, maybe tougher to switch it up mid-stream. Not sure they have the horses to defend from 30 feet out all night but they have to try it. We know Luka won’t play hard two-way ball for 45 minutes. Kyrie is handsy but not super physical. We’ll see.

I thought where the wolves really lost last series was not pressing the issue more getting KAT downhill but Gobert spacing (and KAT decisionmaking) made it tough.
This is a great point. They've been guarded this way all throughout the playoffs. So, the media is set on narratives and doesn't really see it. There were times where in each series teams were grabbing, punching at them on the perimeter. That said, Dallas is big and they probably can do this better than any previous postseason team the Celtics have faced. But, you're right, Dallas obviously saw the film and went to this strategy in game one. Not as much on the perimeter but it was there. Lively got up in Tatum's grill a couple of times past the 3-point line. It was disruptive for a bit but then the Celtics were like oh we in that kinda game now, I've seen this before, and started to blow by.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's incredibly baffling. His decision, multiple times, to help on defense all the way across the paint and leave shooters in the corner wide open for 3 is obviously not anyone's scheme. More alarmingly (for Dallas), it's literally playing into a big Celtics strength.

Many of us here were harping before the series on how he is a complete defensive liability, but it was seemingly swept under the rug by most media outlets. Or frequently downplayed. He shuffles, swipes, and that is IT.
Dallas has schemed this way all season with the corner 3 being defended by the strong side wing rotating to the corner while the bigger Doncic drops into the paint. I posted the clip of Minnesota scouting this out and using a back screen on the wing to generate the open 3. I don’t recall the specifics of our corner 3’s the other night or if Joe used a similar strategy but watch for this on Sunday.
 

m0ckduck

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I have to say, I listened to a couple of non-Celtic podcasts and I don't think I heard one talk about how much of a liability Luka is on defense. Certainly Lowe went on and on about his "offensive genius" but not one word I can remember about his defense.

I know at least some people are talking about it now.
Not a podcast but this Ringer piece starts by calling him and Kyrie out pretty explicitly: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/6/7/24173614/luka-doncic-kyrie-irving-dallas-mavericks-boston-celtics-nba-finals-2024 . There's also an amazing clip there of Luka 'closing out' on a Porzingis three where he just shuffles halfheartedly towards KP with an upraised arm like an old guy in his slippers and bathrobe.
 

riboflav

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If I were Kidd... How do you stop or slow down the Celtics? We've talked about the Mavericks hitting more shots and making the game more half court and being more physical and maybe containing the dribble more by backing off, and so on, but ok you have the Celtics in front of you in the half court with their best five on the floor so what do you do?

Do you relax the so-called Tatum rules? I think this is a possibility as we've seen Tatum is so used to this by now he's feels very comfortable. Do you treat the Celtics offense like the Celtics defense is treating you (let Luka be Luka as a scorer)? Relax the Tatum rules. Don't load up as much. Let Tatum get his. Allow him to score 30-40. Make him a scorer and less as a playmaker. Do all the things mentioned above but in the half court, play more 5-on-5 on defense. Approach every Celtics player as if they are a weapon on offense. If we take away guys like White and Holiday and Brown, can Tatum beat us?

But, therein lies the problem for Kidd. You still have to contend with KP. Horford in the post is a win for the Mavericks. KP is not. IDK how you let Tatum cook but also contain KP. And, then, you have the problem of White and Holiday and Brown who are entirely capable of getting paint touches whenever they want doing just that and making tough shots one-on-one.

I'm glad I'm not Kidd for many reasons.
 

riboflav

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With the way Tatum is shooting threes especially off the bounce it makes no sense to be so aggressive on him outside the three-point line. But, I get the fear. I do.
 

Jakarta

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If I were Kidd... How do you stop or slow down the Celtics? We've talked about the Mavericks hitting more shots and making the game more half court and being more physical and maybe containing the dribble more by backing off, and so on, but ok you have the Celtics in front of you in the half court with their best five on the floor so what do you do?

Do you relax the so-called Tatum rules? I think this is a possibility as we've seen Tatum is so used to this by now he's feels very comfortable. Do you treat the Celtics offense like the Celtics defense is treating you (let Luka be Luka as a scorer)? Relax the Tatum rules. Don't load up as much. Let Tatum get his. Allow him to score 30-40. Make him a scorer and less as a playmaker. Do all the things mentioned above but in the half court, play more 5-on-5 on defense. Approach every Celtics player as if they are a weapon on offense. If we take away guys like White and Holiday and Brown, can Tatum beat us?

But, therein lies the problem for Kidd. You still have to contend with KP. Horford in the post is a win for the Mavericks. KP is not. IDK how you let Tatum cook but also contain KP. And, then, you have the problem of White and Holiday and Brown who are entirely capable of getting paint touches whenever they want doing just that and making tough shots one-on-one.

I'm glad I'm not Kidd for many reasons.
The problem with this is the same problem the “muck it up” options creates…Luka is exposed. If Kidd decides to let Tatum play 1 on 1, he will get Luka switched on him (because not switching means the screener is going to be open which creates the game 1 problems) and Tatum is winning that matchup almost every time.

I do think they could try to bait JT and JB into taking a bunch of pull up 3s, but this feels like a high risk, moderate reward option. If they are hitting those shots, the Celtics will win by 50 (see the Warriors game).

I still think play your best 3 point shooters and hope you win the math game is the Mavs best hope. Luka/Kyrie/Hardaway/PJ/Kleber makes a lot of sense. If the Celtics are going to attack switches and mismatches anyways, at least try to keep up scoring the ball.
 

riboflav

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If you want a terrible example of basketball analysis of the Celtics, watch the Ryen pod with Raja Bell starting at 43:00.

They are getting better at 47:00.
 

riboflav

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Love Raja comparing this to a QB. This is a thing. JT is TB. He is on the perimeter doing pre-snap reads and Dallas always shows their hand early.
 

riboflav

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My God how do you come to the conclusions that Raja is now arguing (you cannot show JT anything bc he will pick you apart) after you and Ryen were saying JT was not good in game one. Be consistent.
 

m0ckduck

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I still think play your best 3 point shooters and hope you win the math game is the Mavs best hope. Luka/Kyrie/Hardaway/PJ/Kleber makes a lot of sense. If the Celtics are going to attack switches and mismatches anyways, at least try to keep up scoring the ball.
I dunno. I get the rationale, but that seems too desperate for G2. They view Lively as their third best player this postseason, and they desperately need his defensive energy— I don't think they're going to go with heavy doses of Kleber just yet.

I think we'll see from Dallas:
- push the envelope with handsy, aggressive defense on the perimeter to help contain the ball, see if the refs will call it
- don't help so much on the cutters. Stay home more on the perimeter shooters and see if Tatum and Brown will miss some contested 2s around the rim
- try to punish the C's for putting Tatum on Gafford/Lively. Those two are limited offensive players, but you have to try to make Boston pay for sticking a wing on your bigs
- relatedly: run more pick and roll with Lively/Gafford, even if it means getting Tatum switched on Luka. There still should be post-ups for the two centers against JB or Jrue.
- Maybe less Jones Jr and more of a shooter (Hardaway and Hardy).

But as Timpf discusses in the video posted above, it has to start with Luka holding up better in one-on-one defense, even if he has less left in the tank for the offensive end. It's going to be impossible for Dallas if they're constantly in rotation the whole series.
 

tims4wins

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Sunday night will be a great test for them. Win and you control the series. Lose and it’s a 5 game series with Mavs having home court and some real momentum.
I agree. I expect a tighter game. But win and I think we’re looking at a sweep.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It also works in the Celtics favor on defense. If the refs are allowing both teams to muck it up, the Cs will completely exhaust Luka and Kyrie and then the Mavs have no offense.

I think the Mavs play a lot more Kleber and Hardaway in game 2, to play their own version of 5 out. It leaves them with no rim protection, but maybe they try to win the math game by encouraging the Cs to drive for 2s.
I think the Celtics are best served by defending Luka and Kyrie the way they did. You are probably right that going smaller would be better for the Mavericks offensively.

Do you relax the so-called Tatum rules? I think this is a possibility as we've seen Tatum is so used to this by now he's feels very comfortable. Do you treat the Celtics offense like the Celtics defense is treating you (let Luka be Luka as a scorer)? Relax the Tatum rules. Don't load up as much. Let Tatum get his. Allow him to score 30-40. Make him a scorer and less as a playmaker. Do all the things mentioned above but in the half court, play more 5-on-5 on defense. Approach every Celtics player as if they are a weapon on offense. If we take away guys like White and Holiday and Brown, can Tatum beat us?
Maybe you do it on some but not all possessions to try to confuse Tatum?
 

tims4wins

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Not a podcast but this Ringer piece starts by calling him and Kyrie out pretty explicitly: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/6/7/24173614/luka-doncic-kyrie-irving-dallas-mavericks-boston-celtics-nba-finals-2024 . There's also an amazing clip there of Luka 'closing out' on a Porzingis three where he just shuffles halfheartedly towards KP with an upraised arm like an old guy in his slippers and bathrobe.
Quite the turnaround from calling Luka Lebron 2.0 three days prior.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Celtics lost game 2 in Miami, when the Heat shot 23-43 from three versus the Celtics 12 of 32. The Heat attempted only 32 twos (hitting 14), while the Celtics attemoted 48 twos (hitting 25). Both sides hit 37 FG, but Miami hit 11 more threes.

Game 2 Cleveland, the Celtics shot 8 for 35 from three, versus the Cavs 13 of 28. From two, the Celtics hit 25 of 45, while the Cavs hit 35 of 58.

The rest of the games were obviously wins, but the closest of these were 3 of the 4 Indy wins.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Catching up on this thread so maybe this has been addressed already.. If you're asking Dallas to go that small, aren't you overhauling their system and what they have practiced and played like all year? That is almost desperation time. So, yes, I'm agreeing with you here.
Yes, I didn't suggest Washington at the 5 - to me, that's a "we get blown out in game 2 as well" possible game 3 adjustment only. They also have Kleba at the 5 as an option; they ran some of this in game 1 I believe? My issue there is that I don't think he's really a strong rim protector and while he's better on perimeter D than Gafford/Lively he's not good....so the tradeoffs defensively aren't clearly positive to me. Offensively, he's interesting for them (but totally differetn than they played all year) But those are more major adjustments.

I was wondering whether, for game 2, Dallas takes some Washington mintues and gives to Hardaway. That gives you some better quickness, some three point juice, and leaves you with a rim-running five for the dunk game and rim protection. That's what I was thinking by going smaller near-term. Maybe you try Kleba at 5 vs Horford (essentially instead of Gafford) to get a little more juice offensively and a little btter switchability, too? For the most part I think their game 2 plan will be the "play better" button, and it may work - but my guess remains that the Celtics have some adjustments to make too and may have more impact than that will actually widen the difference unless Dallas really changes up. Or somehow gets a very different defensive effort from Luka and others on the perimeter
 

tims4wins

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I just watched the Celts possessions during the 16-4 second half run again. It was really only 6 possessions: 1-4 FG, and 2 turnovers.

The 4 FGA:
1) White fadeaway long 2 as the shot clock was expiring - bad look
2) Tatum swoop layup that he made
3) JB catch and shoot 3 from the wing
4) Jrue catch and shoot 3 from the corner

3 of the 4 looks were pretty good.

And then the 2 turnovers:
1) Luka swoops his arm around Tatum and knocks the ball out for a steal
2) Luka draws the charge on JB at halfcourt

Both of those were pretty lucky IMO.

So the process wasn't even all that bad. They just had a lousy couple minutes. That is going to happen in every single game.

Going to do the 13-5 run in Q2 next.
 

tims4wins

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The 13-5 run over the last 4 minutes of the first half: 2-6 FG, 1 turnover

The turnover:
Tatum lazy outlook to White that Luka tips and the Mavs save into their own backcourt. This was lazy and avoidable

The FGA:
1) Tatum turnaround on the low block gets blocked at the shot clock buzzer. This was coming off an out of bounds play with 3.4 on the clock, so it was circumstantial but not a good look
2) White C&S corner 3 (air ball, yikes, but great look)
3) JT dunk after a spin move
4) KP logo 3 (good look even though 30')
5) JT missed pullup 3 from the top of the key (they were running 2 for 1 here so he took it with about 3 seconds left on the shot clock, not the best look)
6) JT missed stepback 3 from the wing at the buzzer

This was definitely a worse stretch than the 2nd half stretch for the offense, but 3 of the 6 misses were somewhat dictated by the clock.
 

ManicCompression

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The thing I just can’t stop thinking about, and that makes me probably too optimistic, is that people acknowledge Dallas shot bad from 3 in G1and that’s not likely to sustain. But the thing is, it wasn’t just that the Mavs missed shots - they didn’t even take a lot of them, and particularly from the corners (their bread and butter). They have to figure out how to even put players in positions to take 3s within their offense against the Cs before they even worry about making them.

If all the Celtics give up to guys like DJJ, PJW, Josh Green etc is open above the break 3s, this will be a short series.
 

tims4wins

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The thing I just can’t stop thinking about, and that makes me probably too optimistic, is that people acknowledge Dallas shot bad from 3 in G1and that’s not likely to sustain. But the thing is, it wasn’t just that the Mavs missed shots - they didn’t even take a lot of them, and particularly from the corners (their bread and butter). They have to figure out how to even put players in positions to take 3s within their offense against the Cs before they even worry about making them.

If all the Celtics give up to guys like DJJ, PJW, Josh Green etc is open above the break 3s, this will be a short series.
I just made this exact same point in the discourse thread. They gave up 4 corner three attempts in game 1. That is a strategy, not a fluke. They're willing to give up above the break 3s because those guys on Dallas only hit like 30% of them. If the Mavs can only generate one corner three attempt per quarter, this is going 123Cancun.

Or, as someone else said, if the Mavs came out of game 1 thinking that their only issue is shooting variance, they're done. Note: I don't think they think this; they acknowledged their D was also a problem.
 

bigq

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With just 9 assists for the game and only 1 from Luka, Dallas had big problems with ball movement and complimentary offense in G1. I liked what the Celtics did to deny the lob threat that makes Luka so dangerous. If Boston continues with man coverage on Luka and keeps a big in the paint to deny the lob I wonder what Dallas’ adjustment to that will be. They did not come up with an answer to Boston’s defensive approach in G1. Feels like Dallas will make a change in G2 but I don’t know what that will be.
 

chilidawg

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I still think play your best 3 point shooters and hope you win the math game is the Mavs best hope. Luka/Kyrie/Hardaway/PJ/Kleber makes a lot of sense. If the Celtics are going to attack switches and mismatches anyways, at least try to keep up scoring the ball.
Gafford and Lively only played a combined 32 minutes in game 1, so Kidd seems to be recognizing they need both better perimeter shooting and better perimeter D (Kleber being better at both). They were -15 in the 19 Kleber minutes though, so it's not like they found a surefire solution. And Hardaway has been pretty bad in the playoffs.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Nekias Duncan and Steve Jones on Dunker Spot podcast made a good point about Celtics approach: one wrinkle they had was using a guard in the dunker spot (both Jrue and White had a number of possesions) 11 times by their count. That means the help on Jays drives is more often coming from a guard, and that guard is smaller and more likely to gravitate to the ball...which is part of why Jrue and White had those layups from dunker spot.

Overall, they (in particular Jones) said "game 1 is only game 1, we'll see" but both noted the Celtics execution was exceptional and that if Dallas isn't able to cause Celtics approach to change that this will be a short series so long as Celtics execute as well. They didn't have a lot different than discussed here in terms of Dallas options - the goal is likely to get Porzingis (in particular) to react to the ball more, but they acknowledged that until Dallas forces it there's no reason for Celtics to do it. Which I think is why many of us are suggested Dallas personnel tweaks.

I do expect some Dallas adjustments. But I will be really disappointed if Celtics execution quality drops much---they know this is their moment and there should be zero drop in focus/discipline here for Game B.
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum finally up to 30% on C&S threes, and 31% on pull-ups lol. The form looked pretty clean on Thursday, but tomorrow night will give a better idea.

The issue with them softening their coverage on Tatum is teams are scared that he gets into one of those zones, and the Celtics almost never lose when he goes off, I think they’re 25-5 when he goes for 40+.

I think the Mavs are fucked either way, though.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Nekias Duncan and Steve Jones on Dunker Spot podcast made a good point about Celtics approach: one wrinkle they had was using a guard in the dunker spot (both Jrue and White had a number of possesions) 11 times by their count. That means the help on Jays drives is more often coming from a guard, and that guard is smaller and more likely to gravitate to the ball...which is part of why Jrue and White had those layups from dunker spot.
I don’t know why they call it a wrinkle - Jrue has been in the dunker spot all season.
But yes, having Jrue/DW there does make things easier for JB/JT.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Do the Mavs run more sets with Kyrie as the initiator in the pick and roll, especially when Al is out there without KP? Kyrie seems more likely to be able to get by Al than the slower Luka, and thus more likely to collapse the defense/force rotations (not that Al can’t handle Kyrie decently, we saw him do that in Game 1 at times, just that it seems like a better matchup for Dallas then a slower/tired Luka), plus it saves Luka some effort letting Kyrie run things for a bit so he can save his legs. That also puts Luka off ball more and he’s probably the one the Mavs would rather have taking the above the break threes that the Celtics like to concede when they do send help.

Edit: I guess in that scenario the Celtics would just play drop more and concede a 17-foot midrange shot to Kyrie, which isn’t the worst thing.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Not a podcast but this Ringer piece starts by calling him and Kyrie out pretty explicitly: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/6/7/24173614/luka-doncic-kyrie-irving-dallas-mavericks-boston-celtics-nba-finals-2024 . There's also an amazing clip there of Luka 'closing out' on a Porzingis three where he just shuffles halfheartedly towards KP with an upraised arm like an old guy in his slippers and bathrobe.
I think people are beginning to talk about it but it’s amazing to me how little effort Likavgives on defense and no one says anything. The clip where JB drives besting Luka, dishes to Jrue (IIRC) who gives it to JT at the top of the arc - Luka is supposed to rotate but he literally just stands there, forcing Jones Jr. to go from helping on the drive to trying to contest JT. Splash.

The other problem with Luka not rotating is that rotations are supposed to happen in concert. Teams practice these over and over so players know that when someone rotates, everyone’s got to be ready to rotate to the next spot. But when someone doesn’t rotate, the rest of the team isn’t quite sure what to do. It really screws things up.

i’m glad I don’t have root for guys like Luka or Trae or Dame. Kemba (who at least some charges) was bad enough and IT4 was such an underdog we all just rooted for him to go as far as he could. I’m glad we have guys who really play defense up and down the roster.
 

Kliq

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I was listening to Windy and Lowe after the game and they were trying to be optimistic about Dallas and talked about how they could take away some stuff they did well in the third quarter run, but I just don't see it. The Celtics offense could have been better (so credit to Dallas' defense) but I thought Dallas' offense was just carried by Luka making a series of a difficult shots, shots that he couldn't keep making throughout the game. The way Dallas' offense looked all night, it seemed like the entire team has to be carried by Luka and Kyrie making tough shots--while facing against a Boston team that moves the ball around much better and gets much better looks for all players.
 

chilidawg

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Tatum finally up to 30% on C&S threes, and 31% on pull-ups lol. The form looked pretty clean on Thursday, but tomorrow night will give a better idea.

The issue with them softening their coverage on Tatum is teams are scared that he gets into one of those zones, and the Celtics almost never lose when he goes off, I think they’re 25-5 when he goes for 40+.

I think the Mavs are fucked either way, though.
They're 13-2 in the playoffs with him shooting 30%, so by that definition they almost never lose then either. Mavs certainly are well and truly fucked.
 

slamminsammya

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Tatum finally up to 30% on C&S threes, and 31% on pull-ups lol. The form looked pretty clean on Thursday, but tomorrow night will give a better idea.

The issue with them softening their coverage on Tatum is teams are scared that he gets into one of those zones, and the Celtics almost never lose when he goes off, I think they’re 25-5 when he goes for 40+.

I think the Mavs are fucked either way, though.
Isn't 25-5 close to their overall winning percentage regardless of whether he gets 40?
 

benhogan

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Tatum finally up to 30% on C&S threes, and 31% on pull-ups lol. The form looked pretty clean on Thursday, but tomorrow night will give a better idea.

The issue with them softening their coverage on Tatum is teams are scared that he gets into one of those zones, and the Celtics almost never lose when he goes off, I think they’re 25-5 when he goes for 40+.

I think the Mavs are fucked either way, though.
Yea his C&S 3s these playoffs have been very off (43% this season). The PU3s are somewhat close to his 34.9% average this season.

FWIW he squares up to the basket from the left side ATB3s (43%) much better than the right side ATB3 (23%), which is worth keeping an eye on.

https://3stepsbasket.com/player/jayson-tatum/shooting

i’m glad I don’t have root for guys like Luka or Trae or Dame. Kemba (who at least some charges) was bad enough and IT4 was such an underdog we all just rooted for him to go as far as he could. I’m glad we have guys who really play defense up and down the roster.
Luka and Kemba both ball-watch & float on D. LD grabs some rebounds in traffic & can body players in the post, but boy is he a traffic cone on the perimeter. It's weird watching players go past him continuously and the announcers not saying much about it (JJ did mention it)

At 25, Luka has the defensive footwork/speed of a somewhat agile Center on the perimeter. That won't age well unless he gets serious with his conditioning (which I'm sure will eventually happen).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I was listening to Windy and Lowe after the game and they were trying to be optimistic about Dallas and talked about how they could take away some stuff they did well in the third quarter run, but I just don't see it. The Celtics offense could have been better (so credit to Dallas' defense) but I thought Dallas' offense was just carried by Luka making a series of a difficult shots, shots that he couldn't keep making throughout the game. The way Dallas' offense looked all night, it seemed like the entire team has to be carried by Luka and Kyrie making tough shots--while facing against a Boston team that moves the ball around much better and gets much better looks for all players.
I've heard or read a couple of different people (including the Locked on Mavs guys, who aren't very good) talk about this. If the exact same things that happened during the 25-4 run happen through the rest of the series, they are going to win! Without talking about how likely those events will happen.

Doncic picked the pocket of both JT and KP during that run. I'm guessing that's not going to happen many more times the rest of the series.

Also, Doncic got to his left-side, step-back 3P at least twice during that run. The Cs - particularly Al - have been sitting on that shot. Luka is nowhere as good at the step-back going right (not a surprise).
 

nattysez

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Dallas had a long time to prepare for this series. I don't think they will make major changes for Game 2.

The Dallas cope is that if you replay Game 1 but:
Kyrie goes 2-5 from 3 instead of 0-5;
PJ Washington hits and takes more 3s;
KP doesn't turn into a slender Jokic for 10 minutes; and
Maxi Kleber remembered how to play basketball;
the Mavs would've been close.

The thing I'm most worried about in Game 2 is that after the refs allowed a free-for-all in the paint during Game 1, things get tightened way up in Game 2, which I think hurts the better defensive team.
 

TripleOT

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Luka generated something like 56-58 points per game in the regular season, off 33.9 ppg and 9.8 apg, (guesstimating the number of assisted threes). In game one he scored 30 points and assisted on only one bucket, a two. 32 points generated, a 20+ deficit from his normal regular season production, and around 17 points under his playoff output, isn’t going to lead to too many wins.

Control Luka and control the series. I’m guessing they try to ride Doncic even more in Game two, hoping he can put a 50 piece on Boston. The problem for Dallas is Boston really didn’t play well on offense after the first quarter, and if they’re shaper offensively in game two, a huge scoring game from Luka might not be enough.

Dallas scored 75 points in 73 minutes against the Boston defense. Unless Boston for some reason doesn’t play fundamentally sound defense, I don’t see Dallas having enough offense to outscore this team in four of six games. If I’m Dallas, I try to take away the three, and hope Boston misses inside the arc (they were only 50-93, .537 combined inside the arc in the two losses compared to .593 in the playoff wins).