NBA Finals: Cavs vs. Warriors
- Thread starter DJnVa
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Even though I can't stand either team, with the rest and no significant injuries this should be some good basketball.
It's been that way for decades - ABC doesn't want the Finals to start until after the May ratings period ends.
Yeah, and it's a function of the semis only going for 4 and 5 games...seems like way too long of a break.
For the third year in a row I will be a Lebron fan. I rooted for him to lose every season before that.
LeBron on the finals...
In addition to being the best player on the planet, dude is a helluvalot smarter than Shaq and Barkley. But then, we knew that already.
In addition to being the best player on the planet, dude is a helluvalot smarter than Shaq and Barkley. But then, we knew that already.
How could you root against the 2014-15 Warriors (who were going after their first title in 40 years)? I thought everyone loved that team.
Maybe Steph's Jesusness offends him? Just guessing.
I went Cavs in the poll. I think Lebron is the best player and can dominate at least three games in a series. I don't really care who wins though. Last yer I wanted the Warriors to win mostly because of the Bulls fans.
I didn't dislike that Warriors team, but I did feel sorry for the city of Cleveland (a team also going for their first title in 40 plus years). My dislike for them started last year with Draymonds antics though.
I really liked that GS team, but LeBron singlehandedly putting the Cavs on his back taking that series to 6 games may be the most impressive athletic achievement I've ever seen. LeBron is the best player in the current era, but one player is not supposed to be able to do that by himself.
The single-handedness of it was insane, but I think people tend to overestimate his overall performance in that playoff run. His counting numbers were amazing, but he was wildly inefficient by his standards (.487 true shooting overall in the playoffs, almost inconceivable for him), and he looked pretty much gassed after Finals Game 3, clanging from the field and dogging it on D as the Ws blew the Cavs off the floor in Games 4, 5 and 6.
He was miles more efficient in last year's championship run with a totally healthy Kyrie and Love by his side (Kyrie had been pretty badly banged up in 2015, even before the major knee injury), and has been even better this year.
2017 playoff scoring (per 36 minutes)
Curry 30.0 pts on .675 ts
James 28.6 pts on .657 ts
Durant 27.2 pts on .673 ts
Irving 25.4 pts on .580 ts
Pretty insane. Let the fireworks begin.
Curry 30.0 pts on .675 ts
James 28.6 pts on .657 ts
Durant 27.2 pts on .673 ts
Irving 25.4 pts on .580 ts
Pretty insane. Let the fireworks begin.
Extrapolating from 538's Warriors 90% / Cavs 10% current odds (and giving the Cavs an extra 10% because LeBron), I'll say:
50% Warriors walkover (4 or 5 games)
30% Warriors in a tough battle (6 or 7)
18% Cavs in a tough battle
2% Cavs walkover
50% Warriors walkover (4 or 5 games)
30% Warriors in a tough battle (6 or 7)
18% Cavs in a tough battle
2% Cavs walkover
I know this is going to be good basketball and the best two teams are in it. And while I do not need a rooting interest to enjoy a good game, it's hard for me to tune in when I really despise both teams.
Until last year, I would have rooted for GS in a heartbeat. LeBron is in A-Rod/Ulf/Munson Land for me. But while I get that every athlete has the right to choose, when KD went to the 73-win team that beat his last year, it eliminated my ability to root for that sqaud.
So I doubt I will watch much of this.
I don't claim that this is the "right" way to look at it.
Until last year, I would have rooted for GS in a heartbeat. LeBron is in A-Rod/Ulf/Munson Land for me. But while I get that every athlete has the right to choose, when KD went to the 73-win team that beat his last year, it eliminated my ability to root for that sqaud.
So I doubt I will watch much of this.
I don't claim that this is the "right" way to look at it.
I mean... you're telling me he was more efficient when his #2 and #3 options were healthy?
This is where I fn hate the stats view of the NBA. Lebron gets credit for the will he showed in those finals, not necessarily any set of stats.
It was like a basketball version of that turd of movie 300
What's really weird for me is that I still *LOVE* KD, but my love for that Warriors team went down a little.
Still should be fun though.
Warriors in 6. Barnes was open all series last year and he played terribly. They are replacing his minutes with Kevin Durant.
I'm rooting for LeBron. He's the best player I've ever seen, and taking down this Warriors team would be his most impressive accomplishment, by far.
Haha, yes, it's obvious, but that's what I'm telling you. And I totally give LeBron mad credit for the will he showed in those finals. He was unbelievable. But ultimately that one stat (.477 true shooting in the Finals) goes a long way towards showing how the Ws were able to breeze through that series, after the first three close games. If LeBron puts up his current .660 ts in that series, or even a much more modest .560-.580, the Cavs may well have won. But obviously, that's a lot easier said than done when you're part of a 7-man playable rotation, and your main other offensive options are Smith, Shumpert and Dellavedova.
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I'll co-sign that. I don't like to get too into the MJ v. LeBron thing because it's apples and oranges in so many ways, but for me personally, I think LeBron will have fully arrived on the same tier as MJ (a tier of two players) if he leads his team past a healthy 2016-17 Warriors.
For the record, I think LeBron's already arrived in that tier. Jordan never beat a team nearly as good as this Warriors team. He never beat a team nearly as good as last year's Warriors team, either.
Just curious - how old are you with such a sentiment?
Because I'm 47 years old....saw MJ's entire career....and I feel the same way but my peers discredit that feeling.
If I am starting a team and I get to pick from a list of any players that I have seen in my lifetime....it's Lebron.
No question.
I think the point is that that team without LBJ (and Kyrie and Love) would have won maybe 10 games during the season, so it was amazing that LBJ basically by himself was able to win 2 games against the best team in the league.
I'm about to turn 35. I watched Jordan's prime, but it was before I was a particularly astute basketball fan.
For what it's worth, I think the Cavs are better than they were last year, too.
That might be a surprising stance, given the struggles they had during the regular season, but they barely broke a sweat to get to the finals, either. It seems to be getting a bit lost because the C's stole a game from them, but they just demolished the Celtics. They were +113 in 5 games. They're shooting incredibly well right now, and have lineups that can score with anybody. I think this is going to be a very competitive series.
That might be a surprising stance, given the struggles they had during the regular season, but they barely broke a sweat to get to the finals, either. It seems to be getting a bit lost because the C's stole a game from them, but they just demolished the Celtics. They were +113 in 5 games. They're shooting incredibly well right now, and have lineups that can score with anybody. I think this is going to be a very competitive series.
Yeah I voted Ws in 5, but almost went 4. 7 or a Cavs win would surprise me. I figure James is great, but it's not enough, except Irving goes off once. Whether LeBron is the best ever or Jordan-level is not all that relevant to this series. He's the best right now but there are lots of examples of the best and most dominant player at a point in time losing to a team that is just too loaded to beat.
538 gave the Cavs a two (2) percent chance to win it all at the start of the playoffs and had the Celtics as a slight favorite to win the series at the outset when betting markets had the Cavs as a huge favorite. The Warriors are the better team and are going to win more than half the time but anything Silver says about the Cavs should be launched into the sun.
Edit: The Warriors are currently about 2.5-1/71% favorites in the betting market. I don't pretend to know where it'll end up Thursday night, but I can say with certainty it won't come anywhere near 90%. Great job Nate!
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That's interesting. My emotional reaction to this whole situation is the mirror image of yours - I still really like the Warriors despite KD being on the team. I know that as a free agent, he had earned the right to make whatever decision that he wanted. I just viscerally hate the decision. Meanwhile, I still love watching the GSW crew (but especially the amazingly talented Curry) play high quality basketball.
Combine that with the fact that I find Lebron to be the most unlikable player in the league, despite his talent, and I'm easily rooting for the Warriors.
I'm with you on this 100%. He had already passed Jordan prior to this season and now everything from here on out is gravy from my perspective. He also has Love playing the best basketball of his career, Kyrie doing Kyrie things, and a bunch of 3-point shooters who are going to get clean looks.
The Warriors are going to have their moments of looking good but I have Cleveland in 6.
Cavs already had their 2 best games in game 2 and game 5 of the ECF. It won't be as easy when they see GSW shoot better with dirty looks than Ae and Smart with clean looks. Plus Thompson and Iggy are great perimeter defenders, and McGee/Pachulia is a dirty combo that is ready to do things Horford and Olynyk never will. And that's before even mentioning Green.
Cavs may steal game 2 or 3, but not both, and it's GSW in 5 as I see it.
Cavs may steal game 2 or 3, but not both, and it's GSW in 5 as I see it.
I think this series is going to be great. Would have loved for the Celtics to somehow sneak their way in but it ain't their time yet. LeBron and Kyrie are playing at such a high level and Golden State's stars are as well. I also think our friend Draymond will be so amped that he'll probably escalate something, which will make for great theatre.
End of the day, Warriors have 4 stars and the Cavs have 2.5 so I'll say Dubs in 6. You get the feeling that this is a monster series for Durant's reputation. He'll obviously get dinged in the court of public opinion for joining a loaded team but if LeBron eats his lunch, then he is going to get panned.
End of the day, Warriors have 4 stars and the Cavs have 2.5 so I'll say Dubs in 6. You get the feeling that this is a monster series for Durant's reputation. He'll obviously get dinged in the court of public opinion for joining a loaded team but if LeBron eats his lunch, then he is going to get panned.
Love Durant and can't stand LeBron. I don't like Love very much either.
Last year Curry was worn down and stressed out, this year is different. I like the Dubs in 5.
Last year Curry was worn down and stressed out, this year is different. I like the Dubs in 5.
I think the team's top 4 players will cancel each other out. LeBron/Kyrie/Love/TT and Curry/Durant/Thompson/Green are pretty even considering LeBron is by far the best player out of the two foursomes and negating any advantage the Warriors may have. I think the play of the benches will determine how this series goes.
Curry was hurt and totally exhausted last year. He will be a totally different player this year, in my opinion. The Cavs have a huge hill to climb but I'm rooting for the Cavs and have them in 7.
I also viscerally hate Durant's decision(love him, though) and I also hate that he said, with a straight face, the NBA title had nothing to do with his choice to go to GS and it didn't even cross his mind. It didn't even cross your mind Kev? I can't even imagine how that is possible. You joined the greatest regular season team in history, a team that was one ball punch away from winning two titles in a row. But going to that team has nothing to do with titles, ok, sure. You just want to write apps and GS is a great place to do it?
I know he is, perhaps, the most divisive, if not the most disliked player on this board but I will be surprised if Draymond does anything but play hard, talk some shit and bark at the refs. By all accounts, he is singularly focused on getting another championship and he is smart enough to know that overstepping the line might prevent him from reaching that goal. If anyone is going to get into it, it will be Pachulia and Thompson because both play such a physical style of basketball.
On that note, lets look at match ups.
The Cavs, as we know start LeBron, Kyrie, Love, Smith and Thompson. The Warriors will go Curry, Durant, Thompson, Green and Pachulia. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Warriors go to Iguodala early in place of Zaza in order to minimize Cleveland switch advantages. Cleveland's line of attack will most likely be to target Pachulia and Curry. With Iguodala on the floor, the Warriors will have four plus defenders who can play anyone the Cavs throw at them so they will go after Steph with LeBron and Kyrie, lure in a help defender and kick it to one of Love or Smith (or FrankenKorver) on the perimeter. Cleveland will have success if their shots fall. Thompson is going to have his hands full on both ends of the floor so he won't look as beastly as he did versus the Celtics weak interior presence. Draymond is the x factor here as he has been blowing people up defensively all playoffs. As dogged as Smart and Bradley can be, the Cavs simply haven't faced a defender of Green's caliber since the playoffs began.
The Warriors are built a bit differently - they most definitely like the three ball but they can beat opponents any number of ways including Durant and Curry midranges and PnRs where switches allow Draymond to use his speed to take the ball to the rim (as well as lobs to guys like McGee when he is in the game). And the Cavs should be mindful of a Curry/Durant PnR which the Warriors have used sparingly thus far this season. Maybe its because it hasn't been as successful as they thought it would be per the linked piece but I doubt it. Instead I think Kerr has saved it precisely for this series. Any switch that gets Durant on anyone but LeBron is bad. Durant versus Kyrie is ugly. Ditto for Curry - Kyrie can stay with him as and LeBron will give him a lot of trouble too. But the Warriors will take the latter and the mismatch it creates for Durant. Also, don't forget Klay Thompson who has yet to have a lights out game - however if he gets hot, what do the Cavs do when all three of him Durant and Curry on the floor?
I have Warriors in five money here. The match-ups clearly favor Cleveland. The caveat, as always, is that LeBron should never be doubted. He is my GOAT and I was around for the Jordan era.
I hadn't seen much discussion of the following event (other than an off-color remark last night by DeJesus, for which he apologized), but I thought it deserved discussion:
LeBron James's LA house was the target of a hate crime on Wednesday, as the N-word was spray-painted onto his gate. LAPD is looking into it. However, his discussion about it afterwards was both moving and noble:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19505341/police-looking-racial-slur-sprayed-front-gate-lebron-james-home-los-angeles
(just read the article, it's mostly quoting LeBron)
Now, for the record, I sports-hate "LeBron James, on-court player". I hate his general demeanor, his style of play that seems to revolve around flinging himself at the basket and believing himself entitled to either a bucket or free throws - and I especially hate the frequency and vehemence with which he whines and complains to the officials.
But off the court, and The Decision aside, LeBron James is pretty obviously one of the best people who happen to be sports stars, across the entire sporting world. The way he's handled his family life, prioritized the right things, and thinks about the world is just incredibly mature. He really is the type of person you'd want serving as a role-model for your children. And those quotes show why: rather than letting his anger flow, he's using it as a teaching moment for his kids, and his only real concern is that his family feel safe.
"Time heals all. And at the end of the day, like I said, if this incident that happened to me and my family today can keep the conversation going and can shed light on us trying to figure out a way to keep progressing and not regressing, then I'm not against it happening to us again."
Impressive stuff by him.
LeBron James's LA house was the target of a hate crime on Wednesday, as the N-word was spray-painted onto his gate. LAPD is looking into it. However, his discussion about it afterwards was both moving and noble:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19505341/police-looking-racial-slur-sprayed-front-gate-lebron-james-home-los-angeles
(just read the article, it's mostly quoting LeBron)
Now, for the record, I sports-hate "LeBron James, on-court player". I hate his general demeanor, his style of play that seems to revolve around flinging himself at the basket and believing himself entitled to either a bucket or free throws - and I especially hate the frequency and vehemence with which he whines and complains to the officials.
But off the court, and The Decision aside, LeBron James is pretty obviously one of the best people who happen to be sports stars, across the entire sporting world. The way he's handled his family life, prioritized the right things, and thinks about the world is just incredibly mature. He really is the type of person you'd want serving as a role-model for your children. And those quotes show why: rather than letting his anger flow, he's using it as a teaching moment for his kids, and his only real concern is that his family feel safe.
"Time heals all. And at the end of the day, like I said, if this incident that happened to me and my family today can keep the conversation going and can shed light on us trying to figure out a way to keep progressing and not regressing, then I'm not against it happening to us again."
Impressive stuff by him.
If it weren't for the Decision, America would be gushing over LeBron at Peyton Manning-esque levels. He really is the total package when it comes to an athlete. Obviously is a great player on the court but doesn't get into trouble off of it, is socially conscious but not in an in-your-face kind of way, and appears to treat fans well.
For the record, I actually like LeBron a lot and consider him my GOAT. Furthermore, he should be applauded for speaking out on racism. I agree with both IF and BSF too that he deserves a lot of credit for how he handles himself in public too, ex-decision.
To clarify my stupid comment - and I will take my beatings because I did make it - I thought his comparison to the Till case was inappropriate. That said I was wrong in my interpretation and once again I apologize for the comment and any offense it caused.
To clarify my stupid comment - and I will take my beatings because I did make it - I thought his comparison to the Till case was inappropriate. That said I was wrong in my interpretation and once again I apologize for the comment and any offense it caused.
I don't think this is entirely true, although the Decision was totally disgusting. I despised Lebron way before the Decision because of all of the reasons InstaFace listed (could not say it better myself). I hate how he basically carries the ball through the lane and either lowers his shoulder or delivers a forearm shiver to defenders, and then either gets the foul call or throws a tantrum when he doesn't. There is literally no way to defend that, especially in a league with no hand checking on the perimeter.
Also, I realize that without the Decision, the whole "heroic" Homecoming story never happens. But the Homecoming was the worst for me. He came back to Cleveland for the exact same reasons that he left for Miami. He realized that Miami was finished after the Spurs put on a clinic in the 2014 finals. So he screws his friends, toys with Riley, and gets to play with Kyrie and Love, both of which were results of #1 picks from when he left the city hanging.
When he speaks out on racism he only makes me hate myself for hating him, but he may cure cancer someday and may still not get my respect. I guess I am an ass, but I will never root for that clown.
By and large, LeBron pre-2011 was a very popular player, particularly after 2007 when he single-handedly destroyed a pretty good Detroit team and again in 2009 when he made that awesome shot against Orlando in Game 2. There are plenty of players who whine when they don't get calls so not sure why you single out LeBron there. He took some heat for semi-quitting against the Celtics in 2010 but that was transient.
The summer of 2011 changed a lot of peoples' minds about him, right or wrong.
Not really disagreeing with this post, but I guess I just don't see the comparison to Peyton Manning, with or without the Decision.
He was always public enemy number 1 for me as a Celtics fan, so everything is magnified. The flopping, the whining, the douchiness. And yes I realize there are quite a bit of whiners across the league and also on the other bench for the finals.
I know quite a bit of people that hated Lebron well before the Decision, but I don't feel the same way about Manning. I am sure that not being a Patriots fan helps with this.
I feel that Durant joining the Warriors did not generate as much vitriol as the Decision did, and I think that is because Durant is easier to like. Although there was not the same spectacle around his move either.
There certainly was an outcry, it just didn't come with the same level of vehemence or long-lasting resentment (though we'll find out as time moves on). There were plenty of posters here in pre-Finals threads talking about how they won't root for the Durant-led GSW because they found his move, for lack of a better word, un-sporting. But, yes, lack of a ESPN-overproduced self-absorbed tone-deaf spectacle is probably a major factor.
Obviously a few big reasons for that:
1) Lebron was (and is) a much more visible player than Durant.
2) The Decision was a massive and ludicrous production -- a misguided exercise if not outright narcissism.
3) OKC has little national following, plus are the product of an acrimonious move from Seattle less than 10 years ago.
By all accounts LeBron is a solid person; when you consider his level of fame you really never hear anything about him doing something negative off the court, no late night escapades or him blowing off his fans. In the social media age that is incredible.
I don't dislike LeBron the man at all; but as a player he annoys the crap out of me. Obviously the biggest reason is that he is really good and usually beats the team I'm rooting for. Beyond that, the decision was a really callous move and was narcissistic and tone deaf. The move back to Cleveland was basically the same thing as The Decision but just repackaged in a friendlier way and the narrative switched to him being this grand regional hero. In reality if Cleveland didn't have the assets to compete for a championship LeBron wouldn't have gone back there. On top of that is that for as uber-talented as he is; I don't really enjoy watching him play basketball. The bullrush to the rim is tiresome and NOBODY not even CP3 or Doc, bitches to the refs more than LeBron. He's so predictable when he attacks the rim and misses a layup; like clockwork he is going to bitch. Let's not ignore the fact that Cleveland atrocious transition defense in G1 was in part due to LeBron not getting back on D because he was bitching to the refs.
At the end of the day LeBron is going to be one of the best to ever play (though not the GOAT unless he wins a couple more rings) and I'll always remember him as a wonderful player. He's still a bitch though.
I don't dislike LeBron the man at all; but as a player he annoys the crap out of me. Obviously the biggest reason is that he is really good and usually beats the team I'm rooting for. Beyond that, the decision was a really callous move and was narcissistic and tone deaf. The move back to Cleveland was basically the same thing as The Decision but just repackaged in a friendlier way and the narrative switched to him being this grand regional hero. In reality if Cleveland didn't have the assets to compete for a championship LeBron wouldn't have gone back there. On top of that is that for as uber-talented as he is; I don't really enjoy watching him play basketball. The bullrush to the rim is tiresome and NOBODY not even CP3 or Doc, bitches to the refs more than LeBron. He's so predictable when he attacks the rim and misses a layup; like clockwork he is going to bitch. Let's not ignore the fact that Cleveland atrocious transition defense in G1 was in part due to LeBron not getting back on D because he was bitching to the refs.
At the end of the day LeBron is going to be one of the best to ever play (though not the GOAT unless he wins a couple more rings) and I'll always remember him as a wonderful player. He's still a bitch though.