NBA Cup 2024 discussion & gamethread: It's On. We'll Watch.
- Thread starter InstaFace
- Start date
I don't like teams with winning records losing out because of point differential.
Point differential is a shitty way to decide things even when you all play the same teams.
It is worse when you play different ones, and in basketball where points are easy to score and a bad player can get hot from 3 for a quarter, it is even worse.
Point differential is fine as like a 5th tiebreaker, but if you are eliminating teams with winning records on it as the second tiebreaker, it's a bad format.
If you're trying to go from 30 teams down to 8 with only 4 games you are going to get some wacky results/have to use annoying tiebreakers.
I don't think there is any great solution here unless they want to fundamentally change the format, have more games, etc. It's not "fair" but I don't think it's really designed to be. The more games and fairness, the more you start to just mirror a mini version of the playoffs but that isn't really the goal. A mediocre team going on a run is sort of the point, like the Lakers last season.
Looks like we get the Pistons and Wizards during the tourney, sounds good to me.
I don't think there is any great solution here unless they want to fundamentally change the format, have more games, etc. It's not "fair" but I don't think it's really designed to be. The more games and fairness, the more you start to just mirror a mini version of the playoffs but that isn't really the goal. A mediocre team going on a run is sort of the point, like the Lakers last season.
Looks like we get the Pistons and Wizards during the tourney, sounds good to me.
One of the consequences of a point differential tiebreaker is teams needing to play all 48 minutes, no matter the score.
Up or down, you have to play to the whistle.
It's different than a normal game and I'm not sure the downside is all that bad.
This leads to the crux of the issue: The games should not be part of the regular season. No other league has cups that are also part of the regular season for a reason.
If you want an NBA cup, make the games different and not part of the NBA season.
View: https://twitter.com/NBA_NewYork/status/1864190357849682099
Part of the fun and excitement of the IST is that the very nature of it means that the best team won't always win or even get past the group stages. The element of luck/randomness is a feature, not a bug. We already have the playoffs to determine who the best team is, the point of the IST is that even weaker teams can have a couple of good games and add some excitement to their seasons. Missing out due to point differential leaves a bad taste in my mouth too, but it 100% adds some drama to a part of the schedule that has never had it before, just the cost of doing business.
Part of the fun and excitement of the IST is that the very nature of it means that the best team won't always win or even get past the group stages. The element of luck/randomness is a feature, not a bug. We already have the playoffs to determine who the best team is, the point of the IST is that even weaker teams can have a couple of good games and add some excitement to their seasons. Missing out due to point differential leaves a bad taste in my mouth too, but it 100% adds some drama to a part of the schedule that has never had it before, just the cost of doing business.
Ha I was never a fan of the FA Cup when I lived in London and Premiership teams don't really care all that much either.
I went to a Newcastle/Chelsea Finals at Wembly. Chelsea didn't even play their full side.
Major Premiership teams just care about qualifying for Europe. The Champions League is built on away goal differentials, which is much more subjective than what the NBA is doing with the point differential for the Emirates Cup qualification.
Well I’m sorry that the Celtics aren’t moving on, mostly because there would be the likelihood of a few extra high intensity, no resting anyone, no trying out different lineups for the sake of experience/experimentation, all-out effort December games from the Celtics.
Also I would rather have them win the thing than not win it. But it’s all a bit flukey. I’m not a big fan of trying to run up scores in games and all that.
Also I would rather have them win the thing than not win it. But it’s all a bit flukey. I’m not a big fan of trying to run up scores in games and all that.
Yeah I guess maybe some teams care about this more than others which I’ve always believed would be the case but it’s weird that they would care about us…..good that we are in their heads I guess. Clearly the Celtics didn’t and I thought maybe the Knicks would fall under that umbrella more than say the Hawks.
Last edited:
So the issue with this, unlike 4-team groups in Champions League (who play home-and-homes, 6x games) or the World Cup (all games at neutral venues), is that half the teams will end up playing 2 home / 1 road, and the other half will play 1 home / 2 road games. To me that is a worse skew than occasional scheduling quirks with unequal rest. (though I agree they should jigger it so there's no back to backs issues for Cup games)
That's why the 5-team groups are somewhat genius, because you play each of the other teams once, and it's 2 home / 2 road in all cases. I think CONCACAF came up with that for some world cup qualifying early rounds a few years ago, and I've suddenly seen it used elsewhere in other tournaments since - perhaps here most prominently.
I suppose you could also do 7-team groups, playing 3 home / 3 away, 2 groups per conference, with 1 team in each conference getting a bye to the knockouts (or do NBA champs / defending Cup champs, like you said - which might make a mixed-conference group, if both of those bye teams are from the same conference, but whatever, no biggie). Then you'd have a lot of choice of structure, over who you send through to the knockouts, and more room for a team that took an oddball loss to make up for it in subsequent games. Normally that would be a nuts suggestion, 7-team groups... but since the group-stage games are just regular-season games with added juice, they're gonna be playing them anyway, so who cares.
Yes, good call with the 7 team groups, and that way if you take the 2 finalists you won't have a conference problem.
I do think they should expand the knockouts to 10 or preferably 12 teams, though. Because if you don't, then only 1.5 teams are going through from each group of 7 and it seems to be just as unforgiving as the present format.
Bye to QFs (4): Defending Cup champion, defending NBA champion, top 2 group winners (best one in each conference - can tiebreak by regular season head-to-head if it exists yet, in-group record or point differential if not)
Qualify to R16 (8): other 2 group winners, group 2nds, and top 2 group 3rd places (tiebreaks)
Or, group winners all get a bye to QFs, and the 2x defending champs have to play R16 against runners-up, but don't have to go through a group (and increasing the chances that someone knocks them out in a single-elim game, essentially taking the belt from them).
I'm sure you could work out the schedule for something like that still.
You're not playing the same teams though. +40 in one group isn't equivalent to +40 in another group.
Edit: if we went this route, in the East we would still have the Knicks, Magic, Bucks... and Cavs, despite their 2-2 record
Yeah, fuck it, I just want that format. Same thing is true about wins--not all groups are equal.
Eliminated teams get games added to their schedule so everyone plays the same amount of games.
Edit: the Celts also picked up a game against the Wiz. So an extra win or two, unless they were to win the Cup. It's not all that bad.
So whether you make the CSF or not, you still get one tbd road game and one tbd home game? Ok it took me 2 years but I think I figured it out
That's interesting.
This year, C's still would have been out at 3-1, and three of the same teams would have advanced in the East. But it would have replaced Hawks with Cavs (who were 2-2, but destroyed the Wiz and Nets in their two wins).
Now, I'm not entirely sure that's better, since the Hawks had a better record than the Cavs, and advanced on the basis of beating both the C"s and CLE. I think they deserved to advance in this tournament, so I'm skeptical of a system that would leave them out and replace them with a team they beat, and who had more losses.
But if every team knew it was pure point differential going into their 4 group games, many of the results might have been different.
To be clear - if the Celitcs won all four of their games by 1 point, but the Hawks lose 3 games by 1 point and soundly beat the Knicks by 10, then the Hawks should advance over the Cs? Not being defensive here, just wondering if that's what you mean.
Yes, that is what I mean. And yes, it would feel weird....but I *want* the Cup to feel kinda weird.
Worked out damn near perfectly for this version of the Celtics with high aspirations. They add a home game against Detroit and a road game in DC. Basically no travel and an extra game against the weakest team in the league should help if they stay neck and neck with the Cavs for the one seed.
It's true, but I don't think the 1 seed vs. 2 seed matters much for this team. They've consistently been really good on the road, and it's hard to know how each side of the bracket will shake out.
Some League Pass extras that money just can't buy:
Timeout during 3Q of the Magic-Bucks game, a guy wins the preliminary contest and gets to shoot a ball into a plinko board to win one of several big prizes. If he lands in bin #2, he gets a free all-expense trip to Vegas. He shoots and lands in bin #5, which was... Bucks season tickets! The hostess says he can keep it or can shoot again. He opts to shoot again. Then, obviously, he lands in a different bin, and comes away with a "dinner date with Giannis and signed jersey". Guy had probably a $3000 win on his hands and just YOLO'd it away.
Timeout during 3Q of the Magic-Bucks game, a guy wins the preliminary contest and gets to shoot a ball into a plinko board to win one of several big prizes. If he lands in bin #2, he gets a free all-expense trip to Vegas. He shoots and lands in bin #5, which was... Bucks season tickets! The hostess says he can keep it or can shoot again. He opts to shoot again. Then, obviously, he lands in a different bin, and comes away with a "dinner date with Giannis and signed jersey". Guy had probably a $3000 win on his hands and just YOLO'd it away.
Suggs was incredible. A one-man wrecking crew esp in the 4Q with 18 in that quarter alone.
They also have the coaches with hot mics during live play, and we were getting F-bomb after F-bomb from the coaches and the players within range of the mics. Most I've heard on basic cable, maybe ever. Bet they won't do that again!
OKC just plays such beautiful ball on both ends. Their arguably worst starter, Lu Dort, has played lockdown defense on Doncic every possession he's guarded him (to the extent anyone can lock him down), holding him to fadeaway bricks and bailout passes.
Holmgren probably won't be back when we visit OKC in early January, but should be by the time they visit Boston in mid March. Can't wait.
Holmgren probably won't be back when we visit OKC in early January, but should be by the time they visit Boston in mid March. Can't wait.
Dallas has 16 turnovers in this game. OKC is so grabby - they are like a team full of Dyson Daniels.
Didn't watch the game but according to MacMahon (through Second Spectrum), "the Thunder blitzed Doncic on 13 of the 27 ball screens that he used. That 48% blitz rate is the highest faced by any player who used at least 20 ball screens this season. "
Klay ended up 7-14 (5-10 3Ps) for 19 points but ended up -17.
Klay ended up 7-14 (5-10 3Ps) for 19 points but ended up -17.
yeah the defense on Doncic was really impressive all game long, and it was an orca-pack effort by the Thunder. They denied entry passes to him. They jumped swing passes to him, and got steals out of it. They blitzed the ball screens, like you said. Hartenstein was brilliant at not fouling in the paint. They only relented 30 feet from the basket, leaving him 1v1 temporarily and daring him to shoot those (he took a few, and I think missed them all). They also scrambled / rotated like absolute demons when Dallas got them in a pickle. It was very impressive start to finish. The only weakness I saw was defensive transition - basically Naji Marshall got as many transition buckets off of misses at the rim as he cared for, the Thunder weren't great at getting back.
Klay played pretty well, to my eyes. One of those instances where +/- can lie to you. The Thunder's two big runs, end of the 1Q and the middle part of the 3rd, he happened to be on the floor for it all. Was pretty active on defense, neither a difference-maker nor someone they hunted. He's also +8.5 on-court on the year. Hartenstein, meanwhile, was a net -26 on-off (-6 on-court) in this game, another example of it being misleading. IH is +14.8 on-court in his 9 games since returning.
Klay played pretty well, to my eyes. One of those instances where +/- can lie to you. The Thunder's two big runs, end of the 1Q and the middle part of the 3rd, he happened to be on the floor for it all. Was pretty active on defense, neither a difference-maker nor someone they hunted. He's also +8.5 on-court on the year. Hartenstein, meanwhile, was a net -26 on-off (-6 on-court) in this game, another example of it being misleading. IH is +14.8 on-court in his 9 games since returning.
OKC's defense was great as they were physical and did a great job rotating, as InstaFace noted. One thing I noticed in the second half was a real commitment to get Luka's primary defender (usually Caruso) back on to him if there was a switch. Instead of just conceding that Luka was going to get a switch on to a more favorable defender, OKC quickly made sure Caruso got back on to Luka, while the guy who switched on to Luka drifted back to his original matchup before Luka or Dallas could process the rotation. It was really slick and avoided Luka getting pretty much any mismatch all night--it takes incredible coaching and teamwork to pull it off as well as OKC did.
Dallas also struggled to get stops when they needed to. A big part of that was OKC's role players (Dort, Wallace, Kenrich Williams, Caruso and Isiah Joe) all shot the ball really well from three during the game. To beat OKC you are going to concede those guys some shots and hope they miss, but they were hot tonight and it made it pretty impossible for Dallas to really get back into the game in the second half. Dallas looks very similar to the team last night--very good if Luka and Kyrie have it going, but lack the depth of high quality players, plus struggle defensively because of how weak their two best players are on that end.
Dallas also struggled to get stops when they needed to. A big part of that was OKC's role players (Dort, Wallace, Kenrich Williams, Caruso and Isiah Joe) all shot the ball really well from three during the game. To beat OKC you are going to concede those guys some shots and hope they miss, but they were hot tonight and it made it pretty impossible for Dallas to really get back into the game in the second half. Dallas looks very similar to the team last night--very good if Luka and Kyrie have it going, but lack the depth of high quality players, plus struggle defensively because of how weak their two best players are on that end.
This win makes the Hawks 6-1 against the top 5 in the EC, with wins over everyone but Orlando (who they haven’t played). They’re 2-0 against both CLE and NYK, and have beaten all four teams they’ve played on the road.
(They also lost to the Wizards TWICE, for WAS’s only two wins on the season. But that just makes the wins funnier…)
