Nava optioned to minors, Wilson recalled

mwonow · Apr 23, 2014

Something had to give in the outfield, but wow - that's a serious plunge for a guy who had defenders all over this board a month ago. Here's hoping he gets straightened out in Pawtucket - 2013 Nava could really help the Sox, even if 2014 Nava was basically a black hole.

brandonchristensen · Apr 23, 2014

Hopefully he can turn it around. He was a big part in our season last year.

FelixMantilla · Apr 23, 2014

If anyone is resilient, it's Daniel Nava.

I expect him back in Boston soon.

topps148 · Apr 23, 2014

This was the move I expected. It gives them the most flexibility as they continue the (currently unpromising) Sizemore experiment. If Grady doesn't show some improvement or, worse, continues to regress, I expect to see Nava back in the Show in about a month.

vadertime · Apr 23, 2014

So Wilson up for tonight's game to help out an a bullpen that's been overworked in the last week and then back down for Victorino after the game?

curly2 · Apr 23, 2014

FelixMantilla said:
If anyone is resilient, it's Daniel Nava.

I expect him back in Boston soon.

Yes, injuries happen, and I think the team will need Nava. He's probably not as good as he was in 2013, but he's not as bad as he's been this year. It's good he can work out his issues with no pressure at Pawtucket.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Apr 23, 2014

Too bad Carp has no options left.

This is a loss for corner flexibility. Eh, forgot we have Sugar Shane coming back pretty soon.

Nava's getting the Nava treatement again

Toe Nash · Apr 23, 2014

mwonow said:
Something had to give in the outfield, but wow - that's a serious plunge for a guy who had defenders all over this board a month ago. Here's hoping he gets straightened out in Pawtucket - 2013 Nava could really help the Sox, even if 2014 Nava was basically a black hole.

It's 75 PA. While he hasn't looked good, he also has a .167 BABIP. I think the move makes sense, but I also expect him to figure things out and be back soon.

The chain of events of his career are pretty amazing.:
-Ignored by his varsity high school team for have a late growth spurt, so only played HS for two years (during which he was great)
-Ignored by colleges for being small and only having two years of HS comp, is offered a spot on a team but can't afford college without a scholarship, so goes to community college (rakes)
-Ignored by MLB teams for only having one year of college against good competition, so plays in indie league (rakes)
-Bought by the Sox for a dollar, hits at every level but results are discounted due to scouting and being old for his level
-Is one of the best hitters in the league vs RHP in 2013, but results are discounted because of his history and is benched in the world series because he doesn't have a beard
-Has a slump to start 2014 and is demoted because he's the only guy with options and the ultimate guy who looks good in jeans is on the team.

If he had his growth spurt a bit earlier, or if his family had been wealthier so he could have put up 3+ years of stats against good competition, he probably has enough service time so that he can't be optioned after a 75 PA slump. It's amazing to think how many things have to break right even if a guy does nothing but hit at nearly every stop. Meanwhile someone like Delmon Young gets chance after chance, and Grady Sizemore has already made more money this year than Nava will for the whole year.

As I said, it makes sense from the Sox' perspective. Just kind of amazing.

MakMan44 · Apr 23, 2014

All very solid points Toe. Nava still has a WS ring though and I doubt he'd change a thing.

Just a bit outside · Apr 23, 2014

I think it sucks but is the right choice at the moment. Also, realize his Babip is down because he is hitting nothing hard.

nvalvo · Apr 23, 2014

His horrific slump also means that teams are more likely to honor the informal agreement to not claim players from optional assignment waivers.

DJnVa · Apr 23, 2014

They want Nava to have more ABs--with Victorino coming back, that wasn't going to happen in Boston. Let him go find his swing for a few weeks.

Merkle's Boner · Apr 23, 2014

Red(s)HawksFan said:
For a night, maybe two. After that, Victorino is back and they regain whatever flexibility they had in the outfield, arguably they gain more due to Victorino's superior glove. They desperately need another bullpen arm in the meantime, and Wilson has been very good in Pawtucket.

The expectation seems to be Wilson up for today, Victorino called up in his place tomorrow or Friday, and Middlebrooks is back on Friday as well (presumably at the expense of Holt).

I wonder if this is a sure thing. Everything else being equal I'd prefer they keep Holt over Herrera but I don't know his option status.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Apr 23, 2014

DrewDawg said:
They want Nava to have more ABs--with Victorino coming back, that wasn't going to happen in Boston. Let him go find his swing for a few weeks.

Among Nava, Brentz, and Hassan, who is going to play CF, and if none, who's the odd man out most games?

budcrew08 · Apr 23, 2014

I think it will be good for Nava in the long run, try to get healthy on some AAA pitching and come back soon and be a difference maker for the Sox this summer.

mauidano · Apr 23, 2014

MakMan44 said:
All very solid points Toe. Nava still has a WS ring though and I doubt he'd change a thing.

Nava can rock the jeans too. Have you seen the backside on that boy?

Plympton91 · Apr 23, 2014

Dan to Theo to Ben said:
Among Nava, Brentz, and Hassan, who is going to play CF, and if none, who's the odd man out most games?

Probably Dan Butler gets fewer ABs as the DH when he's not catching, and Lavarnway does less catching and more 1B to keep Butler in the lineup. Nava can also play some 1B to keep sharp there and make ABs for Brentz and Hassan.

RG33 · Apr 23, 2014

Toe Nash said:
It's 75 PA. While he hasn't looked good, he also has a .167 BABIP. I think the move makes sense, but I also expect him to figure things out and be back soon.
the only guy with options and the ultimate guy who looks good in jeans is on the team.
.

This. I don't see where all the angst about this being the death knell of Daniel Nava's MLB career is coming from. He's a career .265/.360/.403 guy in almost 1000 ABs and he is 31 years old. I think the move makes sense based on the Sox roster construction, but Nava will be back - - either with the Sox or somebody else, probably very soon.

Todd Benzinger · Apr 23, 2014

I was under the impression that Nava simply "had an option remaining," (so writes Pete Abe)... Speier also writes that "Daniel Nava will be optioned to Triple-A Pawtucket."

I assumed that this meant that he was still in his 3rd option year, and that the Sox could freely send him to Pawtucket. However, he first played for the major league club in 2010, so it seems that his three option years have been used up.

Any clarification from those of you who truly understand these things? Where does the alleged "gentleman's agreement" between the clubs fit in? He is not being DFA'd, right. so what is happening?

joe dokes · Apr 23, 2014

Plympton91 said:
Probably Dan Butler gets fewer ABs as the DH when he's not catching, and Lavarnway does less catching and more 1B to keep Butler in the lineup. Nava can also play some 1B to keep sharp there and make ABs for Brentz and Hassan.

And playing more 1B also makes Carp more potentially expendable.

Fred not Lynn · Apr 23, 2014

MakMan44 said:
All very solid points Toe. Nava still has a WS ring though and I doubt he'd change a thing.

Having followed Nava's unlikely journey from the Golden League to the Big Leagues, a small part of me wanted him to walk right through the dugout, to the shower to the street after the career first pitch grand slam, stating, "My work here is through".

Fortunately, he didn't, and not only did he hit yet another legendary HR in the must-win first post bombing home game, he was a legitimate contributor to a World Series Champion. Even if it ends here for Nava (and I doubt it will), he had a pretty good run...

Reverend · Apr 23, 2014

Daniel Nava will not report to the PawSox today, as is his right.
— Brian MacPherson (@brianmacp) April 23, 2014

dbn · Apr 23, 2014

(wrong thread)

Plympton91 · Apr 23, 2014

It is interesting to note that for all the discussion about how you shouldn't make decisions based on 21 games of evidence, the Red Sox reversed the decision they made at the end of spring training to send Bradley down and keep Nava up. Does that tell you the most about Nava, Bradley, or Sizemore?

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Apr 23, 2014

It tells us that they need a bullpen arm and sent down the guy with an option. Nothing more.

You're smarter than this.

JakeRae · Apr 23, 2014

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
It tells us that they need a bullpen arm and sent down the guy with an option. Nothing more.

You're smarter than this.

It also tells us they've decided to commit to Bradley in CF. Relatedly, it may tell us they don't want Sizemore in CF. I think it says absolutely nothing about Nava outside of his being the corner OF on the roster with an option.

Plympton91 · Apr 23, 2014

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
It tells us that they need a bullpen arm and sent down the guy with an option. Nothing more.

You're smarter than this.

Did you miss the whole part about the next move being to option Wilson and activate Victorino? Bradley also has options, 23 days ago they optioned Bradley to the minors. If we're not supposed to make decisions based on 21 game samples, why aren't they just optioning Bradley again? It has to be some part Bradley holding his own offensively, some part Nava slumping, and some part Sizemore not looking very good on either side of the ball but showing enough flashes that they don't want to cut bait yet.

judyb · Apr 23, 2014

I think it tells us that Sizemore seems to be a much worse defensive CF now than he appeared to be during spring training.

KillerBs · Apr 23, 2014

judyb said:
I think it tells us that Sizemore seems to be a much worse defensive CF now than he appeared to be during spring training.

This is the part that truly puzzles me. How is that the Sox are just learning during the first few games of the regular season that Grady isn't really a CF anymore?

geoduck no quahog · Apr 23, 2014

KillerBs said:
This is the part that truly puzzles me. How is that the Sox are just learning during the first few games of the regular season that Grady isn't really a CF anymore?

This is an early season over-reaction. Sizemore hasn't proved anything yet. He's shown that playing RF for the first time in his life is going to involve a learning curve. He's made some bad plays in CF, but noting that would indicate he's toast out there. JBJ is, right now, a better CF'r (and probably will always be) but that doesn't mean Sizemore can't play CF.

JBJ is on the ML roster because Victorino is on the DL. JBJ might have played himself into a good position because of Nava's early season suckitude and option. After a few more weeks this thing will play out, and it will all be contingent on:

- The health of Victorino
- Nava's performance in Pawtucket
- Sizemore's performance
- JBJ's performance

The odds of all 4 of those outcomes being ++ are short. This thing will play out logically.

Reverend · Apr 23, 2014

Plympton91 said:
Did you miss the whole part about the next move being to option Wilson and activate Victorino? Bradley also has options, 23 days ago they optioned Bradley to the minors. If we're not supposed to make decisions based on 21 game samples, why aren't they just optioning Bradley again? It has to be some part Bradley holding his own offensively, some part Nava slumping, and some part Sizemore not looking very good on either side of the ball but showing enough flashes that they don't want to cut bait yet.

I think the 21 game sample means different things for evaluating defense and offense. On the defensive front, there are things you can see that are not going to change with a few more games played. To whit, JBJ is playing great CF and Sizemore was really struggling both with getting jumps and reading the ball. The pitching staff might mutiny if JBJ got sent down.

KillerBs said:
This is the part that truly puzzles me. How is that the Sox are just learning during the first few games of the regular season that Grady isn't really a CF anymore?

I don't have a keen enough eye to judge speed on the margins, but Alex Speier tweeted that Sizemore already looks appreciably slower than he did in Spring Training. I do, however, have a keen enough eye to see him balk at the ball off the bat and then watch him run in the wrong direction.

radsoxfan · Apr 23, 2014

geoduck no quahog said:
This is an early season over-reaction. Sizemore hasn't proved anything yet. He's shown that playing RF for the first time in his life is going to involve a learning curve. He's made some bad plays in CF, but noting that would indicate he's toast out there. JBJ is, right now, a better CF'r (and probably will always be) but that doesn't mean Sizemore can't play CF.

JBJ is on the ML roster because Victorino is on the DL.

Strongly disagree. JBJ was called up because Victorino went on the DL, but JBJ is now on the roster because the team realizes Sizemore can't play center. Unfortunately, the team will likely soon realize Sizemore can't play RF at Fenway either.

Early season slumps are very often related to small samples and not good indicators of future performance. But when players can't run with any speed or quickness, that's a different story. Sizemore's defensive performance is giving every indication, at least on that side of the ball, he is toast. Let's just hope he starts hitting.

Dogman · Apr 23, 2014

Plympton91 said:
Did you miss the whole part about the next move being to option Wilson and activate Victorino? Bradley also has options, 23 days ago they optioned Bradley to the minors. If we're not supposed to make decisions based on 21 game samples, why aren't they just optioning Bradley again? It has to be some part Bradley holding his own offensively, some part Nava slumping, and some part Sizemore not looking very good on either side of the ball but showing enough flashes that they don't want to cut bait yet.

In the other thread, you are complaining about Ellsbury playing well for 21 games and how the Sox should have re-signed him based on those 21 games and a WAR prediction for the next 7 years.. You are also complaining that the Sox lack a good CF and have no depth out there. Now you want to option the one guy who is playing ok in CF because he has been optioned this year over the guy who is not playing well, isn't a CF and also has options left? You aren't making sense.

If Nava didn't get optioned today, he would have when Vic returns. What difference does it make, aside from desperately needing the bullpen arm, if Wilson rides the shuttle in this scenario? I mean, neither move would magically help Nava hit, would it?

dbn · Apr 23, 2014

KillerBs said:
This is the part that truly puzzles me. How is that the Sox are just learning during the first few games of the regular season that Grady isn't really a CF anymore?

What the above said (glad I hit "Show Me" [the other posts] before posting this one). Also, making these judgements is a fluid process. It is a bit different with established starters than with rookies and guys who were once a GG CF but haven't played for 2 years.

Plympton91 · Apr 23, 2014

Dogman2 said:
In the other thread, you are complaining about Ellsbury playing well for 21 games and how the Sox should have re-signed him based on those 21 games and a WAR prediction for the next 7 years.. You are also complaining that the Sox lack a good CF and have no depth out there. Now you want to option the one guy who is playing ok in CF because he has been optioned this year over the guy who is not playing well, isn't a CF and also has options left? You aren't making sense.

If Nava didn't get optioned today, he would have when Vic returns. What difference does it make, aside from desperately needing the bullpen arm, if Wilson rides the shuttle in this scenario? I mean, neither move would magically help Nava hit, would it?

I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out that something changed in the past 21 days and as Rev said, what's changed is most likely their assessment of Sizemore's defense. If that's the case then Sizemore's remaining rope should be about as long as it takes Nava to start hitting in AAA. Which I expect to be about 10 days, unless he's hiding an injury.

AlNipper49 · Apr 23, 2014

I'm not sure that I agree with that as much. Farrell basically gave Gomes his role in the latter part of the post season. His reasoning was kind of Jimy-ish, centering on Gomes' intangibles, but it's not like Gomes is awesome or anything. I think your ratings of Nava are higher than the org's are, for whatever reason.

Dogman · Apr 23, 2014

Plympton91 said:
I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out that something changed in the past 21 days and as Rev said, what's changed is most likely their assessment of Sizemore's defense. If that's the case then Sizemore's remaining rope should be about as long as it takes Nava to start hitting in AAA. Which I expect to be about 10 days, unless he's hiding an injury.

Here are your posts in this thread:

Plympton91 said:
Did you miss the whole part about the next move being to option Wilson and activate Victorino? Bradley also has options, 23 days ago they optioned Bradley to the minors. If we're not supposed to make decisions based on 21 game samples, why aren't they just optioning Bradley again? It has to be some part Bradley holding his own offensively, some part Nava slumping, and some part Sizemore not looking very good on either side of the ball but showing enough flashes that they don't want to cut bait yet.

Plympton91 said:
It is interesting to note that for all the discussion about how you shouldn't make decisions based on 21 games of evidence, the Red Sox reversed the decision they made at the end of spring training to send Bradley down and keep Nava up. Does that tell you the most about Nava, Bradley, or Sizemore?

You are trying to make a case that JBJ should be sent down instead of Nava because JBJ has already been optioned this year. That makes absolutely no sense given all of your posts in the other thread about the lack of CF depth.

Irrespective of the need for another arm, they sent down Nava because he was playing like shit and because he has options. They kept Bradley because he is playing better than Sizemore in CF. Sending Bradley down would make the depth in CF worse AND would keep the worse hitter with the team. Why would the team do that?

HriniakPosterChild · Apr 23, 2014

geoduck no quahog said:
This is an early season over-reaction. Sizemore hasn't proved anything yet. He's shown that playing RF for the first time in his life is going to involve a learning curve. He's made some bad plays in CF, but noting that would indicate he's toast out there. JBJ is, right now, a better CF'r (and probably will always be) but that doesn't mean Sizemore can't play CF.

Maybe not toast, but his play reminds me a lot of what we saw Bernie Williams in the twilight of his career.

Plympton91 · Apr 23, 2014

Dogman2 said:
Here are your posts in this thread:

You are trying to make a case that JBJ should be sent down instead of Nava because JBJ has already been optioned this year. That makes absolutely no sense given all of your posts in the other thread about the lack of CF depth.

Irrespective of the need for another arm, they sent down Nava because he was playing like shit and because he has options. They kept Bradley because he is playing better than Sizemore in CF. Sending Bradley down would make the depth in CF worse AND would keep the worse hitter with the team. Why would the team do that?

If they think Nava is a worse hitter than Bradley then they're putting a very high weight on the past 21 games.

They send down Nava because they've decided that Sizemore can't play CF anymore and they want a little more time to decide whether Grady can still hit and field well enough to be a better platoon LF and RF backup than Nava. Id give him until Nava starts raking in AAA, which I don't think will take very long unless he's hurt. Something I don't discount given how uncharacteristically bad he's been.

Dogman · Apr 23, 2014

Plympton91 said:
If they think Nava is a worse hitter than Bradley then they're putting a very high weight on the past 21 games.

They send down Nava because they've decided that Sizemore can't play CF anymore and they want a little more time to decide whether Grady can still hit and field well enough to be a better platoon LF and RF backup than Nava. Id give him until Nava starts raking in AAA, which I don't think will take very long unless he's hurt. Something I don't discount given how uncharacteristically bad he's been.

Right now, he is worse than Bradley and he has options too. That's why he is down.

They didn't send Nava down so that they could have a longer look at Grady. They sent Nava down because he has been absolutely terrible, worse than Grady. And he has options to be sent down. Grady can't be sent. That's it. The team probably figures Grady hasn't played in 2 years and needs time to get his timing back (tough to do in the cold weather). Nava can work on his timing in AAA. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

If Nava was hurt nobody would have been sent down and he would have been DLed. I doubt he is hiding anything, he has simply played poorly. Like Pedroia, AJP, Carp, Gomes, Middlebrooks. It happens, it's early.

Plympton91 · Apr 23, 2014

I don't think it would have mattered if Nava was hitting .300 and Bradley was hitting .150, he'd still be going down. They need a CF, and Bradley is the only option in the organization right now almost regardless of how well he hits. And I agree they want a longer look at Sizemore to make sure it isn't just rust that's causing him to suck both offensively and defensively (another brutal route to a catchable flyball in right field tonight).

geoduck no quahog · Apr 23, 2014

[QUOTE="Hriniak]
Maybe not toast, but his play reminds me a lot of what we saw Bernie Williams in the twilight of his career.
[/QUOTE]
You're right and I don't disagree on the facts.

I'm just thinking that the experiment isn't over yet and there's little to lose by letting it play out...and much to gain, even if he ends up being the small field fielder (given current options)

Dustin the Wind · Apr 23, 2014

Wilson back down after the one game, per Roto

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/mlb/bos/boston-red-sox

Savin Hillbilly · Apr 23, 2014

geoduck no quahog said:
This is an early season over-reaction. Sizemore hasn't proved anything yet. He's shown that playing RF for the first time in his life is going to involve a learning curve. He's made some bad plays in CF, but noting that would indicate he's toast out there.

The thing I think people are forgetting is that Sizemore had already declined as a CF before his two-year layoff. No doubt that decline was accelerated by injury, but it may not have been entirely due to injury. And just because he has rehabbed his knees to the point where he can get out there and play on a regular basis, that doesn't mean he hasn't lost some mobility. So if he is toast as a CF, it wouldn't be terribly surprising. In fact you could argue that it would be more surprising if he wasn't.

Either way, from what we've seen, Sizemore should not be our starting CF right now. If he can get the bat back on track, he could be useful in a Nava-type role. (It's funny, the assumption was that we acquired him as JBJ insurance, but right now he's looking more relevant as Nava insurance.)

DJnVa · Apr 24, 2014

Plympton91 said:
I don't think it would have mattered if Nava was hitting .300 and Bradley was hitting .150, he'd still be going down.

I don't agree with that. If Nava was hitting .300, the decision would have been between Bradley or dumping Carp.

lexrageorge · Apr 24, 2014

The move is perfectly logical given the situation the team is in right now. There are a lot of factors here:

- The OF defense has been terrible this season.

- The OF offense has been worse.

- Sending down JBJ only hurts the defense.

- JBJ probably needs some regular at bats at the major league level. Bottom line is that Bradley is the future, not Nava.

- A DFA of Carp leaves the team thin.

- A DFA of Sizemore may very well happen eventually, but I can understand the team wanting to give him more than 66 at bats.

- Nava has struggled offensively, and isn't the answer defensively either.

- Nava has options.

Sure, if Nava was raking, and JBJ was below Mendoza, it likely would have been Bradley being optioned. But I'm not sure why that matters, because it's not the reality right now.

Nava optioned to minors, Wilson recalled

Member

Member

Loves Aaron Judge

reincarnated mr hate

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

stole corsi's dream

Member

Member

Member

Dorito Dawg

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Mai Tais for everyone!

bubble burster

Certain Class of Poster

Member

Member

Member

Dick Button Jr.

for king and country

Member

bubble burster

Throw Momma From the Train

Member

bubble burster

Member

New Member

not particularly consistent

for king and country

Member

Yukon Cornelius

Member

bubble burster

Huge Member

Yukon Cornelius

Member

bubble burster

Yukon Cornelius

bubble burster

not particularly consistent

4416

loves the secret sauce

Dorito Dawg

Member