I feel like the fact that we are discussing Robinson v Hakeem in a thread about the national discourse about the Celtics is somehow... appropriate to the spirit of the thread.
National Celtics discourse
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
- Start date
I don't really like it but OTOH, what else are we supposed to talk about? How if a team can put together 5 guys who are each good to great defensively AND can score at three levels, plus another guy who used to be able to do that, the team is going to be pretty freaking good?
My opinion of Dr J and of Robinson (though I had already decided) come from a Q and A Hubie Brown did around 2002. He was asked which superstar is even better than we know and he said Dr J. In his opinion Dr J in the ABA was the best forward ever up until that time, and then Bird came along. He said he could not say bird was better. A big factor was Doc was legit rim protector shot blocker and offensive rebounder. Hubie said he had never been convinced that Dr J was not injured in his last ABA playoffs, and the Sixers Dr J was not nearly as athletic as ABA Doc. But, he thought the SIxers getting George Mcinnes did not let Doc have the paint to himself.
About Robinson he said a lot of what I said, that Robinson was probably greatest athlete of any center (Hubie said Jordan was best athlete overall) but didn't have the meanness that position required. He thought Moses Malone's personality in Robinson's body would have challenged Russell's rings.
For an interior-based one-on-one matchup that is much larger than you really even need. You can probably identify the matchup advantage in the initial possessions, the adjustment, followed by the re-adjustment if it is a one-sided matchup. This one was.
NBA's last 2 minute report on the Celtics-Raptors game says that on the final possession of overtime, where Tatum hit the walk-off buzzer-beater, there were 2 uncalled fouls:
- Davion Mitchell trucking Jaylen Brown, which would've sent him to the line (in a tie game) with like 3 seconds left, went uncalled - as noted by everybody and their mother. Then,
- Tatum traveled just before putting up the winning shot, as noted by nobody else that I've seen
ESPN's headline?
Jayson Tatum traveled before hitting game-winning 3, NBA says
...because obviously, the important thing is that the millions of people who see that headline and never read paragraphs 5 and 6 leave with the takeaway that the Celtics unfairly won the game. Cheated, really.
- Davion Mitchell trucking Jaylen Brown, which would've sent him to the line (in a tie game) with like 3 seconds left, went uncalled - as noted by everybody and their mother. Then,
- Tatum traveled just before putting up the winning shot, as noted by nobody else that I've seen
ESPN's headline?
Jayson Tatum traveled before hitting game-winning 3, NBA says
...because obviously, the important thing is that the millions of people who see that headline and never read paragraphs 5 and 6 leave with the takeaway that the Celtics unfairly won the game. Cheated, really.
Circumstances are always different, but it's rare to get two situations like this that have this much in common:
View: https://twitter.com/StoolGreenie/status/1858631699611218317
Two big-time all-NBA players in their prime hit impressive game-winning buzzer beaters from 3, both traveled per the LTM report...I'm sure both will be covered equally.
Athletic has a new book out with the top 100 players of all time. What is public is here: The Basketball 100 - Latest News, Mock Drafts, Player News - TheAthletic.com
JT checks in at 91.
Luka checks in at 58. He's just like LeBron except without the defense, which means JT is actually more like LeBron.
I did like the write-up on Hondo though.
JT checks in at 91.
Luka checks in at 58. He's just like LeBron except without the defense, which means JT is actually more like LeBron.
I did like the write-up on Hondo though.
91 makes sense for Tatum if the question is, if he retired today, where would he rank all-time. 58 is an odd number for Luka because it's far too high for him if he retired today but also pretty low if the ranking includes future projection (dunno how many MVPs and titles he's got in his future, but he's probably going to finish 1st or 2nd all-time in 1st team all nba selections).
LBJ has 16 all-NBA selections (I don't know if any of them were Third team). Luka isn't getting close to that.
I know Luka has made 1st Team All-NBA every year since he's come into the league but I think making the 65 game limit is going to be an issue for him within the next few years. In fact, I think JT ends up with more All-NBA selections than Luka.
Lebron has four 3rd team selections.
Luka didn't make it his rookie year, but has 5 straight 1st team selections since then.
The 65 game minimum thing does make it more interesting though. That minimum would have eliminated his selection his sophomore year when he played 61 games.
His sophomore year was the bubble season, he played 61/75 games. I imagine if the 65 game threshold had existed back then it would've been modified or prorated to account for the fewer number of total games played.
He's been right at the 65 game threshold a few times, very curious to see if that changes.
Shaq calls last season's Finals "the most boring ever" and says some other mildly interesting things.
View: https://youtu.be/m_LHiE9GVMA?si=b6I8OgthNXMfbXJE&t=2222
View: https://youtu.be/m_LHiE9GVMA?si=b6I8OgthNXMfbXJE&t=2222
"Boring" is fair. It had two pretty compelling games (Games 2 and 3), and then three games that were mostly never in doubt. (Minus the little Luka run to cut Game 1 to 8 points in the 3rd.)
And "compelling" is pushing it for game 2. It was close throughout and competitive in the final minutes due to Dallas' mini-comeback down 14 with 3 minutes left, but Boston's lead was more than one possession for the last 1.5 quarters and the White/Brown block on Washington slammed the door on a potentially exciting final minute (it would've taken a miracle for Dallas to win after the back to back 3s by White and Holiday, and they got about 2/3 of the way there). In retrospect and from a neutral perspective, it absolutely was a boring series (3 blowouts, 1 game that was competitive but still relatively one-sided, and just 1 game with the result actually in doubt in the closing minutes). It was a coronation of an all-time great team that had been knocking on the door for years, and Dallas just happened to be another speed bump on the way to destiny for the 2024 Celtics. Sucks for everyone else.
The segment after how boring the finals were is on the JT vs JB debate, and I gotta say, it's surreal listening to Shaq opine on this particular subject. Talking about how it's not important who gets the credit, as if he wasn't half of arguably the greatest duo in NBA history that was broken up in large part because he was jealous of how much credit Kobe got for their success. I suppose that makes him an expert on the subject, but it's one of the greatest "do as I say, not as I do" moments in history.
Shaq in general is a pretty lousy media guy, once you get him away from the Inside the NBA desk (and I believe that there are plenty of guys that could take Shaq's spot in that group and be just as entertaining and far more illuminating, but whatever).
I was thinking about why the Cs don't get the love that most historically great teams get and I think this quote from JT nails it: "We’ve been in so many moments together, so many big games that we don’t do anything spectacular. We just do the simple things. We do the right read all the time, or most of the time, whether it’s a Cup game or regular season game or, you know, in the Finals, we know where each other is supposed to be. We work on reads all the time in practice, and regardless of how the game is going or the shots are falling, it's all about making the right read, and you know, the game will reward that. "
JT is correct that the Cs don't appear to do anything extraordinary. They have good shooters up and down their lineup but no one is spectacularly good. They have great athletes but no one like LBJ or Ant. Their one guy who is a unicorn is like their 4th option. They don't have the best player in the NBA.
And so people find them "boring".
Which is interesting because one could talk about JT the same way - he's not the best at anything but he's really really good at everything.
Maybe JT and this team will get their due when they go back-to-back (please stay healthy).
JT is correct that the Cs don't appear to do anything extraordinary. They have good shooters up and down their lineup but no one is spectacularly good. They have great athletes but no one like LBJ or Ant. Their one guy who is a unicorn is like their 4th option. They don't have the best player in the NBA.
And so people find them "boring".
Which is interesting because one could talk about JT the same way - he's not the best at anything but he's really really good at everything.
Maybe JT and this team will get their due when they go back-to-back (please stay healthy).
The "reads" quote is interesting, because it gets to how this iteration of the Celtics has almost fully solved offensive basketball.
1. Acquire lots of smart, versatile players who are plus shooters. (Challenging, but we've seen lots of loaded rosters before. This one was thought to be *less* loaded than previous greats, before the 2024 title.)
2. Drill the crap out of reads re creating initial advantages, maintaining them, and choosing when to shoot.
3. Always get good shots when locked in, against any defense that currently exists (pending the OKC games).
Seriously, their end of game shot quality is ridiculous. The Wolves game had a couple rough possessions when they tried to eat clock in the final 45 seconds, but the last 6-7 minutes were a clinic. Good shot after good shot, over and over. And Minny has a tough D when they try.
Not sure if you meant “drill” as in practice drills, but if you did, PP confirmed that they do just that - the coaching staff works with players drilling situations over and over so players can make the correct reads. Not just 5-on-5 but also 3-on-3 drills with assistant coaches.
I’d pay a little bit of money (not a lot) to see a practice.
Any anti-Boston bias aside, there are two real reasons why last year's Celtics team isn't getting it's due among the best ever:
1. Most of the all-time great teams had at least one of the best players of all-time
2. Most of the all-time great teams won more than one title
Can't do much about #1, as it feels unlikely that as good as Tatum is, he's never going to be a top 20 (or thereabouts) player all-time unless he evolves into an ultra-efficient scorer. #2 on the other hand is very much in reach, they just have to win another title or two.
I too, would pay money to see that.
I assumed they do tons of practice drills and film to reinforce their specific reads.
#20? JT is currently 91 on Athletic’s top 100 all time list. He’ll be lucky to get to top 50 even if he has four titles to his name when all is said and done and even if Luka is already at 53. I mean he’ll never pass Embiid on the list (currently 41).
If Tatum gets another top 5 MVP season and they win the title I would just about guarantee that this same list next year would have Tatum close to top 50. And if Embiid is as cooked as it may seem he drops perhaps out of the top 100 all together.
To play off of your “reads’ comment, I recall last regular season DWhite was being interviewed postgame after a nice C’s win and was asked to comment on a stellar game by JB. White’s comment was that JB played great and made every correct “read”. It’s definitely a focus of Mazzulla ball. Make your reads, get open shots and the math is that our shooters shooting mostly open shots will outscore your shooters who are going to be intensely contested. The Mazzulla math is that over the 100 or so possessions per game, you can’t consistently outscore the C’s if the correct reads are made and the open shots are created. And you certainly can’t do it in a 7 game series.
For example, drills with just Pritchard and Hauser.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/11/26/sports/celtics-payton-pritchard-sam-hauser/
It's crazy if you go back to their intense games this year and last, and see how often they just get better shots than their opponents down the stretch, win or lose.
It’s also crazy thinking about how much I (and many others) complained about their late game play 2021-2023. They really cleaned that up.
Next on the list: Tatum drives and dishes at the end of quarters instead of a fiddle diddle contested jumper, as InstaFace points out.
Yes, but there are far fewer of those (on a relative basis) than we remember, because they're more salient.