MW Aug 19-23: …which makes me hard as a totem pole
- Thread starter 67YAZ
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Pumping in goals. Granted lower tier team but in the recent past they didn't look this dominant.
Thing is, Arsenal has struggled for years to put lesser teams to the sword. Getting three comfortable points on the road against anyone would be very welcome.
Absolutely. Points are points.
They need to make as much ground as possible before the inevitable slowdown in the winter.
you really angered them in the 2nd half
start of this season's FPL has made me turn off the games - can't watch...
It was a rare day with both my teams winning! Though I did get eliminated from my survivor pool already. I couldn't watch the Union game live tonight - and just finished it. It was a fantastic night and a deserved win. I have some game-thready thoughts from the game if anyone is interested:
* First, Union fans did their 15 minutes of silence that starts each game against RB Leipzig. It's always funny hearing the ESPN announcers talk about the great Union support is, and then have the stadium be deathly quiet. I don't know if they're not supposed to acknowledge it or if they don't know.
* There were two big black signs surrounding the "in screen" areas around the stadium during the 15 minutes of silence. Translating, the first said: "For fair competition without patrons - FFP regulations with teeth". The second was something: "Red Bull employees become club members, Salzburgers become Leipzigers, Debts become gifts, FFP becomes a farce."
* I loved that Werner hit the post with his first shot.
* Becker to Pefok on the counter is turning into a great partnership and Pefok gave the keeper no chance.
* Pefok had a really nice defensive block as well.
* Becker's goal was him running 35 yards on a counter, went around one defender and then put a curled shot between two defenders into the top left corner. He used to be just a speed merchant, but he's scoring and assisting now. Should have had another assist to Pefok just before the half.
* Ryerson bailed out Rønnow from a GK error by a clearance on the line
* Orban made a great defensive stop for RBL and then scored
* RBL put a couple shots on in the 88-90th minutes, then Union really controlled the ball during stoppage time
Union looked like the better team today. They keep being the first to balls, well-organised without the ball and generally look like they have a 12th player on the field. It's a fantastic start. Schalke on the road next week, followed by Bayern at home. I keep talking up Urs Fischer, but also a lot of credit to the team that seem to be total disciples of Fischerball, and execute that plan so well every week, despite (or maybe because of) not having any stars on the team.
I got the results of the lottery for Europa League tickets today: I got tickets for the first and second group games, though I'm hoping that the second one is on October 13 and not the 6th, as I'm out of town on the 6th.
I always find it strange how abhorrent fans feel about Leipzig spending their way up the pyramid, when Bayern, thanks to a tilted playing field that is UEFA soccer, has way more spending power than anyone else and has turned the Bundesliga into their own personal feifdom. I understand (at least to the degree that an American watching from afar can understand, which is perhaps not that much) why other teams would be annoyed at RBL bursting on to the scene and emerging as a regular contender for the UCL slots, but it feels like the two lower classes focused on hating each other for trying to succeed while ignoring who the real big boss is.
I'm also somewhat sympathetic to RBL since I think they run a really astute program and do a great job through player development, and at the end of the day they are just like any other club when it comes to eventually having to sell their best players when the Goliaths come calling.
Also that Leverkusen and Wolfsburg “break” the rules too but don’t seem to get the animosity that Leipzig does.
@candylandriots (or anyone else)- do you think there’s an East Germany aspect to this?
@candylandriots (or anyone else)- do you think there’s an East Germany aspect to this?
I had a long discussion with my friends about this when we went to the semi-final of Pokal back in May. I basically asked a question like what @Kliq wrote - something they boiled down to, “how are they worse than Bayern?” And they looked shocked that I would even need to ask such a question. And it took them a minute to kind of get their footing to answer, as if it should have been completely self-evident to anyone and because of that, they’d never even had to ponder it. The answer below is based on that conversation and some additional research I did on my own following that discussion.
@Dummy Hoy it definitely wasn’t an East thing specifically. Leipzig, of course, is in the East, and some of their biggest critics are in the West—though the club culture between Union and RBL is as different as can be, which adds to the enmity from Union. It kind of boils down to a few things.
1) Corporate Money: Red Bull searched Germany for the right spot to pick up a team on the cheap and run it up the pyramid as quickly as possible. They tried with several other more established clubs (including FC St. Pauli, an attempt which should tell you how little they considered fan reaction at the start of this process because that was NEVER going to happen) until eventually settling on a bankrupt, 5th tier team that nobody cared about, because nobody else's supporters would allow it. They had financial and sporting advantages that were far beyond what any other clubs at that level could dream of, and naturally moved up more or less directly. The way that German professional football is organized means that the clubs are primarily owned by the fans through the 50+1 Rule. In fact, up until 1998, any private ownership of clubs was not permitted (which helps explain why ticket/concession prices are so low, but clearly has disadvantages when trying to compete in UEFA competitions). Even Bayern is 82% owned by its fans. RBL were in the Regionalliga and had a former Bundesliga head coach (Ralf Ranganick - who pioneered the model with Hoffenheim a few years before, to much consternation) and started running away with their competitions at that level. By 2014, they were in the 2. Bundesliga and spending more than most 1. Bundesliga clubs. There is a pretty pervasive anti-corporate culture in Germany, particularly in Berlin, so this kind of underscores the distaste for RBL here.
2) Bending the Rules: First, keep in mind that Germans will yell at you for jaywalking. There is a huge cultural pressure to follow the rules, and the motivation to watch and make sure that your neighbor does so as well. RBL's financial advantages were combined with a management strategy that bent rules and ignored historical norms. When RBL was formed, instead of votes of tens of thousands of members, their membership started with just 9 Red Bull employees ("Salzuburgers become Leipzigers" from the sign). Their 'partnerships' with other Red Bull teams (Salzburg, NY, Ghana and Brazil) have helped them shuttle players around in ways not available to other clubs. The transfer and loan arrangements among supposedly independent teams have raised eyebrows, as I'm sure you all know. The "RB" in RB Leipzig infamously stands for "Rasen Ballsport" (lawn ball sport) since corporate sponsors are not allowed in DFL team names. RBL is doing things like that and manipulating sponsorship deals, transfers, etc. to comply with the letter of DFL laws, while flaunting them at the same time. It's the same sort of complaints with other mega-clubs in Europe/UK, but it's particularly glaring in the Bundesliga because there are fewer examples (and the ones that are there aren't as 'in your face' about it). There were still only a handful of club members as recently as 2014. This has been opened up, but is still costly (70-1000 euros!) and comes with no voting rights. My membership at Union, for example, is 10e/month and I have voting rights, can attend annual meetings, etc.
3) Fan Culture/Lack Thereof: All of these things are very much intertwined. Because there was no fan base to speak of when Red Bull acquired the club, they could do pretty much what they wanted without any of the resistance or supporters that they encountered from some of their earlier targets. I can't decide if it's to their credit or embarrassment that the RBL Fans have aggressively embraced it, but the supporters do a "Rasen-Ballsport" call-and-response during the games and proudly use that term. The fans don't seem to mind calling attention to the way that their team has gotten ahead at all. Which, in conjunction with a lack of history, songs, fan traditions, etc., helps to keep the team separate from the others. Union Berlin is culturally extremely different from RBL. I've talked a lot about the history of Union Berlin and how the club was essentially kept afloat by its supporters during some difficult times, to the point of donating blood to raise money and literally building the stadium, etc....well it feels a little like orphan from a bad public school in the city, stayed out of trouble without having any positive influences around, worked his way into and through college, washing dishes all night before going to class in the morning studying during every free second, graduating with debt and comparing him to the kid who just had his dad donate a building to his Ivy League school and had all the connections for internships. They both are qualified for the job, but one clearly had some advantages that the other didn't. In that kind of example, I guess Bayern is the rich kid who worked hard whose family made sure he worked in the mailroom first, didn't give him any special favors, but still started from privilege.
There's probably still more to it. And there is most definitely an element of jealousy as well. But RBL's approach is offensive to most Germans in particular, and even more so among supporters of some clubs in particular. Hope that helps expand on it a bit. And to be clear, I agree that the general German reaction to RBL is overdone, but I get it better now after having discussed it. with them.
@Dummy Hoy it definitely wasn’t an East thing specifically. Leipzig, of course, is in the East, and some of their biggest critics are in the West—though the club culture between Union and RBL is as different as can be, which adds to the enmity from Union. It kind of boils down to a few things.
1) Corporate Money: Red Bull searched Germany for the right spot to pick up a team on the cheap and run it up the pyramid as quickly as possible. They tried with several other more established clubs (including FC St. Pauli, an attempt which should tell you how little they considered fan reaction at the start of this process because that was NEVER going to happen) until eventually settling on a bankrupt, 5th tier team that nobody cared about, because nobody else's supporters would allow it. They had financial and sporting advantages that were far beyond what any other clubs at that level could dream of, and naturally moved up more or less directly. The way that German professional football is organized means that the clubs are primarily owned by the fans through the 50+1 Rule. In fact, up until 1998, any private ownership of clubs was not permitted (which helps explain why ticket/concession prices are so low, but clearly has disadvantages when trying to compete in UEFA competitions). Even Bayern is 82% owned by its fans. RBL were in the Regionalliga and had a former Bundesliga head coach (Ralf Ranganick - who pioneered the model with Hoffenheim a few years before, to much consternation) and started running away with their competitions at that level. By 2014, they were in the 2. Bundesliga and spending more than most 1. Bundesliga clubs. There is a pretty pervasive anti-corporate culture in Germany, particularly in Berlin, so this kind of underscores the distaste for RBL here.
2) Bending the Rules: First, keep in mind that Germans will yell at you for jaywalking. There is a huge cultural pressure to follow the rules, and the motivation to watch and make sure that your neighbor does so as well. RBL's financial advantages were combined with a management strategy that bent rules and ignored historical norms. When RBL was formed, instead of votes of tens of thousands of members, their membership started with just 9 Red Bull employees ("Salzuburgers become Leipzigers" from the sign). Their 'partnerships' with other Red Bull teams (Salzburg, NY, Ghana and Brazil) have helped them shuttle players around in ways not available to other clubs. The transfer and loan arrangements among supposedly independent teams have raised eyebrows, as I'm sure you all know. The "RB" in RB Leipzig infamously stands for "Rasen Ballsport" (lawn ball sport) since corporate sponsors are not allowed in DFL team names. RBL is doing things like that and manipulating sponsorship deals, transfers, etc. to comply with the letter of DFL laws, while flaunting them at the same time. It's the same sort of complaints with other mega-clubs in Europe/UK, but it's particularly glaring in the Bundesliga because there are fewer examples (and the ones that are there aren't as 'in your face' about it). There were still only a handful of club members as recently as 2014. This has been opened up, but is still costly (70-1000 euros!) and comes with no voting rights. My membership at Union, for example, is 10e/month and I have voting rights, can attend annual meetings, etc.
3) Fan Culture/Lack Thereof: All of these things are very much intertwined. Because there was no fan base to speak of when Red Bull acquired the club, they could do pretty much what they wanted without any of the resistance or supporters that they encountered from some of their earlier targets. I can't decide if it's to their credit or embarrassment that the RBL Fans have aggressively embraced it, but the supporters do a "Rasen-Ballsport" call-and-response during the games and proudly use that term. The fans don't seem to mind calling attention to the way that their team has gotten ahead at all. Which, in conjunction with a lack of history, songs, fan traditions, etc., helps to keep the team separate from the others. Union Berlin is culturally extremely different from RBL. I've talked a lot about the history of Union Berlin and how the club was essentially kept afloat by its supporters during some difficult times, to the point of donating blood to raise money and literally building the stadium, etc....well it feels a little like orphan from a bad public school in the city, stayed out of trouble without having any positive influences around, worked his way into and through college, washing dishes all night before going to class in the morning studying during every free second, graduating with debt and comparing him to the kid who just had his dad donate a building to his Ivy League school and had all the connections for internships. They both are qualified for the job, but one clearly had some advantages that the other didn't. In that kind of example, I guess Bayern is the rich kid who worked hard whose family made sure he worked in the mailroom first, didn't give him any special favors, but still started from privilege.
There's probably still more to it. And there is most definitely an element of jealousy as well. But RBL's approach is offensive to most Germans in particular, and even more so among supporters of some clubs in particular. Hope that helps expand on it a bit. And to be clear, I agree that the general German reaction to RBL is overdone, but I get it better now after having discussed it. with them.
Wide open entertaining start to the Chelsea - Leeds match. I still don’t understand how Tuchel is coaching this game after his red card last week. I guess it adds a layer to his poorly dressed Bond villain persona.
Holy crap that Giggs story. They spent 90 minutes in court the other day reading poetry and other assorted lurid correspondence.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11126543/Ryan-Giggs-arrives-day-ten-assault-trial-court-heard-love-poems-ex.html#amp_tf=From %1$s&aoh=16610882494069&referrer=https://www.google.com&share=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11126543/Ryan-Giggs-arrives-day-ten-assault-trial-court-heard-love-poems-ex.html
Mercifully the judge enforced at least a measure of decorum:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11126543/Ryan-Giggs-arrives-day-ten-assault-trial-court-heard-love-poems-ex.html#amp_tf=From %1$s&aoh=16610882494069&referrer=https://www.google.com&share=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11126543/Ryan-Giggs-arrives-day-ten-assault-trial-court-heard-love-poems-ex.html
Mercifully the judge enforced at least a measure of decorum:
Another lively start for Brighton, on the front foot most of the first half.
Chelsea players yelling at each other leaving the pitch at the half. They don't look like they were prepared for the high press.
Which seems like a failure of game planning because there’s no chance Leeds was doing anything other than this.
Leeds have been absolutely flying. Crowd is bonkers. James, Cucurella, Sterling have occasional flashes of quality and you can't count them out of course, but they can't sustain anything before Leeds are on the ball like dogs on a piece of meat.
Arronson, Adams and Pulisic all on the field at the same time. Is this the most Americans playing in an individual PL game?
Injuries withstanding, the Leeds/Fulham game will give us four in a couple of months.
Leeds looked at how the games were being called and adjusted to harder hitting, more contact and keeping the other team off balance by physical play.
It gives the smaller teams without the talent a chance against the bigger fish.
It may lead to more injuries but for now the smaller teams should all take this approach.
Great to see Adams walking the pitch wrapped in an American flag, crowd roaring.
It gives the smaller teams without the talent a chance against the bigger fish.
It may lead to more injuries but for now the smaller teams should all take this approach.
Great to see Adams walking the pitch wrapped in an American flag, crowd roaring.
Jesse should have held that shake and demanded eye contact
how come they never gave Pulisic or Bob Bradley these post-match interviews? here comes NBC jamming Leeds down our throats. they'll push big 6 10am matches over to CNBC or Peacock. Leeds will be featured on USA!
Pulisic got all this love from NBC and more when he was playing and scoring. When Tuchel keeps him stapled to the bench and he doesn’t make much impact in his sub appearances, not so much.