MVP of 2004 Postseason

Who was the Red Sox' 2004 postseason MVP?

  • Keith Foulke

    Votes: 102 35.1%
  • David Ortiz

    Votes: 183 62.9%
  • Curt Schilling

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Manny Ramirez

    Votes: 2 0.7%

  • Total voters
    291

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Just because we still have weeks to go before baseball actually returns....

Which player, do you think, was the MVP of the overall 2004 Red Sox postseason?

Foulke: 11 g, 14.0 ip, 7 h, 1 r, 1 er, 8 bb, 19 k, 0.64 era, 1.07 whip, 12.2 k/9, 1-0, 3 sv, 1 bs, enormously huge innings pitched
Ortiz: 14 g, 13 r, 5 hr, 19 rbi, .400/.515/.754/1.278, two walk-off hits in the ALCS
Schilling: 4 g, 22.2 ip, 23 h, 11 r, 9 er, 5 bb, 13 k, 3.57 era, 1.24 whip, 5.2 k/9, 3-1 record, pitched with a surgically-repaired ankle
Ramirez: 14 g, 8 r, 2 hr, 11 rbi, .350/.423/.500/.923, several nice defensive plays

I'm pretty sure that Ramirez would be fourth on this list. Schilling probably third, though he had some amazing performances during that postseason. To me it comes down to Ortiz and Foulke.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Foulke
Ortiz
Ramirez
Schilling

I think Schilling gets a bit too much credit due to the ankle thing. Yeah, it was heroic to come back with a damaged ankle and pitch well. If he's healthy for all that, and pitches just as well, I don't think he's elevated quite as much. Pedro was just as good as he was in that post-season but doesn't get the same shine. Basically, fuck Schilling.
 

Kliq

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I couldn't choose, my mouse hovered over all four options and I broke into a sweat and just clicked on "view results." All deserving options.
 

RG33

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I went with Foulke. As great as Papi was, I feel like Foulke had more high pressure moments and thus a bigger overall impact over the whole run. I would still flip his burgers any day, any week, any place.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I wanted to go Foulke, but had to go Ortiz.

8 of Foulkes 14 innings came in the ALDS and WS. The ALCS was really the world series that year. And, even though he was fucking lights out in his 6 ALCS innings...it was still only 6 of 71(!?) ALCS innings.

I'm not sure if they win in 2004 without Foulke. I KNOW they dont win in 2004 without Ortiz.

Gotta be Ortiz.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Ortiz hit five homeruns. Two were game winners, two gave the Red Sox the lead, and one got them within a run. The team was 5-0 when he homered. Foulke, Manny and Schilling had their moments, but nobody was as critical to the team’s success in all three rounds than Ortiz.
 

Mooch

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I wanted to go Foulke, but had to go Ortiz.

8 of Foulkes 14 innings came in the ALDS and WS. The ALCS was really the world series that year. And, even though he was fucking lights out in his 6 ALCS innings...it was still only 6 of 71(!?) ALCS innings.

I'm not sure if they win in 2004 without Foulke. I KNOW they dont win in 2004 without Ortiz.

Gotta be Ortiz.
Agreed. I'll also argue that Ortiz's dominance in the ALDS against the Angels saved two key arms that ended up being critical in the ALCS: Foulke and Lowe only pitched a combined 4 innings before the long Yankees series. If Papi doesn't send the Angels home in 3, they most likely would have pitched more in that round and who knows how effective they are later in the playoffs.
 

Ale Xander

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Lowe was the winning pitcher of the clinching game in each series. He should be an option, more deserving than bloody sock blowhard
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Lowe was the winning pitcher of the clinching game in each series. He should be an option, more deserving than bloody sock blowhard
He should be on the list, but lets not let our current bias of Schilling discolor what he did in 2004. That blood sock game was fucking nuts.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Yeah I should have added Lowe.

19.1 ip, 11 h, 4 r, 4 er, 3 bb, 10 k, 1.86 era, 0.78 whip, 4.7 k/9, 3-0 record (all three series-clinching games)

Pedro was solid but not good enough to be on this list. And Kenny F'ing Powers is right. Schilling's character isn't the question here....it's his performance during the 2004 postseason run, which was unbelievable.
 

johnmd20

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Yeah I should have added Lowe.

19.1 ip, 11 h, 4 r, 4 er, 3 bb, 10 k, 1.86 era, 0.78 whip, 4.7 k/9, 3-0 record (all three series-clinching games)

Pedro was solid but not good enough to be on this list. And Kenny F'ing Powers is right. Schilling's character isn't the question here....it's his performance during the 2004 postseason run, which was unbelievable.
Just by the numbers, Lowe blows Curt out of the water.

But it's Papi. Without him, this team doesn't win. You can't replace all those humongous hits.
 

slamminsammya

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My instinct was Foulke, then I looked up Ortiz's numbers and remembered all the big moments he had. I don't know why I thought it would be Foulke.

As a side note, what a fall from grace for Schilling. I can't think of anything like it for an athlete.
 

tims4wins

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I changed my vote to Papi.

You know what might have been the most important play of the ALCS? His homer off Gordon in game 5
 

Import78

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My instinct was Foulke, then I looked up Ortiz's numbers and remembered all the big moments he had. I don't know why I thought it would be Foulke.

As a side note, what a fall from grace for Schilling. I can't think of anything like it for an athlete.
Lance Armstrong?

I go Ortiz for the poll. My first though when I saw the title was how is it not Papi? Obviously its a team game and no one can do it alone, there were plenty of contributors. Papi was the man.
 

InstaFace

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(didn't look at opening post, wanted to consider it fresh)

2004 Postseason WPA:

Schilling: 0.41 (including 0.00 net for the ALCS)
Manny: 0.47
Foulke: 0.88
Papi: 1.87 (!)

Primary stat lines:

Schilling: 4 G, 22.2 IP, 11 R, 9 ER, 5 BB, 13 K, 3.57 ERA, .720 OPS-A, aLI 0.79
Foulke: 11 G, 14.0 IP, 1 R, 1 ER, 8 BB, 19 K, 0.64 ERA, .531 OPS-A, aLI 1.80 (!)
Manny: 71 PA, 21/60, 11 RBI, 2 HR, 9 BB, .350 / .423 / .500 / .923, aLI 0.98
Papi: 68 PA, 22/55, 19 RBI, 5 HR, 13 BB, .400 / .515 / .764 / 1.278, aLI 1.17

My instinct going in was Manny because he had big moments in each series, but looking at the totals and remembering how things played out, it's really between Foulke and Papi. Foulke's case begins with his utter consistency, his Value Over Replacement Closer (especially given our postseason history with closers), and his big shining season-saving moment throwing 3 scoreless in ALCS Game 4 to hold the line. Papi's stats were fantastic and of course he had 4 decisive blows (ALDS gm3 to win it, ALCS Game 4 walk-off, ALCS Game 5 blast off Gordon in the 8th to bring it within 1, and his 1st inning HR vs Kevin Brown in Game 7). We surely would have lost the ALCS if missing either of them, but I think Foulke's impact was felt much more in the WS, while Ortiz cooled off some (1.050 OPS).

Remembering back to SoSH discussions at the time, I think the consensus was that Ortiz was the ALCS MVP and Manny was the WS MVP, but Foulke was the Postseason MVP, the "Conn Smythe". I think I'm going to stick with that, despite how close it was and is.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Changed my vote from Folke to Papi. It's somehow just stuck in my head that that's what to expect out of Ortiz... so it doesn't seem as much of an achievement. Par for the fucking course for that guy....!!!!
After those two, I'm going with Lowe over Schilling. Out of the pending FA's that year, Lowe was the one I wanted back (was Varitek a FA too? Well if so, then good call.....) even though he terribly struggled through the season. I felt like it was likely a blip and he was a horse. That his net positive was > Pedro's due to health.... as Pedro plus his replacements for 10-12 games missed were going to be worse than Lowe. Probably the best to let them both go though.....
 

Minneapolis Millers

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For a franchise that needed to win the decisive game 7 for the ALCS (hell, for LIFE) to have any meaning, Derek Lowe went out there on two freakin’ days rest and gave us 6 awesome innings. Lowe over Schilling, who is also deserving of consideration.

But Papi over Foulke for the prize, for reasons others have stated.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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For a franchise that needed to win the decisive game 7 for the ALCS (hell, for LIFE) to have any meaning, Derek Lowe went out there on two freakin’ days rest and gave us 6 awesome innings. Lowe over Schilling, who is also deserving of consideration.
Interesting call.... best performance:

1. Schilling game 6, bullpen totally spent, Schilling on a just operated on ankle, putting up 7 innings of 4 hit, 1 run ball in a tight 4-2 win.
2. Lowe game 7, pitching on two days' rest, putting up 6 innings of 1 hit, 1 run ball as the Sox cruised.
3. Foulke game 6, pitching for the third straight night, after throwing 50 and 22 pitches the two previous nights, closing out the game with two on, striking out Clark to end it. (28 pitches, making it 100 pitches over three straight nights)
 

Bergs

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Papi got us to game 5, got us to game 6, and his HR in the first inning of game 7 after Damon got thrown out was huge. We wouldn't have won without any of these guys, but Papi stands tallest.
 

InstaFace

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8 of Foulkes 14 innings came in the ALDS and WS. The ALCS was really the world series that year. ...
This bit always bugs me. Say what you will about the 2013 Cardinals, who came in looking more like pretenders, the 2004 Cardinals won 105 games and were a stacked roster top to bottom, led by one of the few hitters in baseball who was clearly better than anyone in our lineup. National predictions going into the WS were close to 50-50. Our team proved to be a juggernaut and they left no doubt, but that was down to the amazing performance of the Sox more than some underlying weakness of our opponents. We'd gotten to the Series before and come up short, so let's not discount the major contributors to our success in that round, just because we managed to not fuck up and lose some games and made it look easy.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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This bit always bugs me. Say what you will about the 2013 Cardinals, who came in looking more like pretenders, the 2004 Cardinals won 105 games and were a stacked roster top to bottom, led by one of the few hitters in baseball who was clearly better than anyone in our lineup. National predictions going into the WS were close to 50-50. Our team proved to be a juggernaut and they left no doubt, but that was down to the amazing performance of the Sox more than some underlying weakness of our opponents. We'd gotten to the Series before and come up short, so let's not discount the major contributors to our success in that round, just because we managed to not fuck up and lose some games and made it look easy.
I mean, I think we were all concerned walking into that series. But the sox were +400 to win the WS at the start of the season. The Cardinals were +1500. The cards were +125 in the WS, the Sox were -145. Of course if they didnt finish the thing off, none of this matters.

Hindsight what it was, the sox had marginally better advanced hitting and pitching stats. They had Reggie Sanders at DH, we had David Ortiz. And the Sox were rolling after that Yankees series. It just felt like destiny.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I mean, I think we were all concerned walking into that series. But the sox were +400 to win the WS at the start of the season. The Cardinals were +1500. The cards were +125 in the WS, the Sox were -145. Of course if they didnt finish the thing off, none of this matters.

Hindsight what it was, the sox had marginally better advanced hitting and pitching stats. They had Reggie Sanders at DH, we had David Ortiz. And the Sox were rolling after that Yankees series. It just felt like destiny.
Yeah, I don't think saying the ALCS was the real WS is a knock on the Cardinals, it's just an assessment of the relative importance and drama of the two series as experienced by fans in the moment. Getting past the Yankees in the way we did made everything else feel like an epilogue. Of course if we had lost the WS it wouldn't have felt that way. But since we didn't, it did, and does. Irrational perhaps, but true.

As for the thread question: Foulke was utterly amazing. But Papi was the Moses who brought us through the wilderness. Those walkoffs were the centerpiece of the whole thing.
 

bosockboy

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Yeah, I don't think saying the ALCS was the real WS is a knock on the Cardinals, it's just an assessment of the relative importance and drama of the two series as experienced by fans in the moment. Getting past the Yankees in the way we did made everything else feel like an epilogue. Of course if we had lost the WS it wouldn't have felt that way. But since we didn't, it did, and does. Irrational perhaps, but true.

As for the thread question: Foulke was utterly amazing. But Papi was the Moses who brought us through the wilderness. Those walkoffs were the centerpiece of the whole thing.
He came through like Yaz and many before him never could in those spots.
 

Bergs

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This bit always bugs me. Say what you will about the 2013 Cardinals, who came in looking more like pretenders, the 2004 Cardinals won 105 games and were a stacked roster top to bottom, led by one of the few hitters in baseball who was clearly better than anyone in our lineup. National predictions going into the WS were close to 50-50. Our team proved to be a juggernaut and they left no doubt, but that was down to the amazing performance of the Sox more than some underlying weakness of our opponents. We'd gotten to the Series before and come up short, so let's not discount the major contributors to our success in that round, just because we managed to not fuck up and lose some games and made it look easy.
Taken a step further, if we didn't sweep them, we could have easily lost the series. Our pitching was in absolute tatters.
 

Wallball Tingle

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All right fine, I changed it from Foulke to Ortiz, but I feel like destroying your career (or your manager destroying it) in successful pursuit of your ultimate professional goal and saving millions from baseball damnation warrants an honorable mention anyway. Ortiz can't get the walkoffs and they possibly can't shut the door on ALCS 6 without Foulke.

But it's Papi.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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This bit always bugs me. Say what you will about the 2013 Cardinals, who came in looking more like pretenders, the 2004 Cardinals won 105 games and were a stacked roster top to bottom, led by one of the few hitters in baseball who was clearly better than anyone in our lineup. National predictions going into the WS were close to 50-50. Our team proved to be a juggernaut and they left no doubt, but that was down to the amazing performance of the Sox more than some underlying weakness of our opponents. We'd gotten to the Series before and come up short, so let's not discount the major contributors to our success in that round, just because we managed to not fuck up and lose some games and made it look easy.
Our pitching after game 1 was lights out, and far better than St.L.’s. But remember, Carpenter was their best SP (Won the CYA the next season) and he missed the series. Not saying that made the difference, but it certainly helped.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Our pitching after game 1 was lights out, and far better than St.L.’s. But remember, Carpenter was their best SP (Won the CYA the next season) and he missed the series. Not saying that made the difference, but it certainly helped.
Not sure about the '13 Cardinals being pushovers though..... I don't have time to look it up right now, but even though they had a bad regular season, they had some incredible talent on that team in the starting pitching department. Ortiz was insane that series.... the rest of the offense was sort of flat. Lackey and Lester just fucking shredded... but the Cardinals IIRC were a team that seemed to finally put all their talent together late in the season and were a juggernaut through the playoffs.
Still felt that Detroit was the best team... and possibly 2nd to the Yankees '04 ALCS victory may have been the most exciting Sox playoff series victory for me (anyone want to make another poll.... most exciting/best Red Sox playoff series victories?)
 

BaseballJones

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Those Cardinals had:

Pujols: .331/.415/.667/1.072, 173 ops+, 46 hr, 123 rbi
Rolen: .314/.409/.598/1.007, 158 ops+, 34 hr, 124 rbi
Edmonds: .301/.418/.643/1.061, 171 ops+, 42 hr, 111 rbi

Those three went a combined 6-45, with 0 hr and 2 rbi...

Pujols: 5-15, 0 hr, 1 rbi
Rolen: 0-15, 0 hr, 1 rbi
Edmonds: 1-15, 0 hr, 0 rbi

Sox pitching just completely shut those guys down.
 

SocrManiac

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It’s Ortiz.

I love Foulke for giving up his career for the Sox. I do think that there were other closers (even Fruitbat) that could have been plugged in and the Sox still win.

There is no player I have ever seen in MLB that could or would do what Ortiz did that postseason. He was absolutely irreplaceable.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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It’s Papi, but I’ll say that I’ll NEVER have the feeling in my life again that I did before and after this pitch. Ever. I was convulsing.

View: https://youtu.be/Bg6PNoVCfO0
The fun part is, Clark lives the next town over, and I see him at our regional HS back to school nights, and track meets, and other events.....
 

InstaFace

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Taken a step further, if we didn't sweep them, we could have easily lost the series. Our pitching was in absolute tatters.
That's an interesting hypothetical. Pedro looked pretty good in Game 3, I think he'd have done fine (by his 2004 standards) in another start of a game 6 or 7. Lowe somehow sacked up to give us 7 innings in Game 4, he looked magnificent but everyone knew he was on fumes. Could Schilling have made another start? My impression was that doing the operation a second time was pretty medically ill-advised as it was, and I vaguely recall him saying he couldn't have pulled it off again, but maybe they'd figure it out? Schill's Game 2, 6-4-1-0-1-4, was nearly as good as Lowe's outing. It was Wakefield who was a huge question mark performance-wise, and Arroyo was relegated to relief duty but could do long-relief if needed. So who would go? If he's available, I guess you'd want Schilling gm 5, Pedro gm 6, Lowe / kitchen sink gm 7. If Schilling's not available, you probably have to chance another Wakefield start in game 5, and odds are he's lit up like a christmas tree.

In the bullpen, Embree, Timlin and Foulke had like one good ligament between them by the end of WS game 4. Those 3 (plus Arroyo in long relief for G1 and short relief for G4) were the ONLY relievers to see the field that entire series. Playoff Tito did not fuck around. So yeah, I guess my biggest concerns would be "is a blowup coming for one of our overworked Bullpen Three", and "if it happens, who can we run out there?". Curtis Leskanic's career was already over, Mike Myers had had his clock strike midnight, Mendoza was left off the WS roster, and there were literally no other pitchers. Basically you run Arroyo out there and hope for the best.
 

Bergs

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That's an interesting hypothetical. Pedro looked pretty good in Game 3, I think he'd have done fine (by his 2004 standards) in another start of a game 6 or 7. Lowe somehow sacked up to give us 7 innings in Game 4, he looked magnificent but everyone knew he was on fumes. Could Schilling have made another start? My impression was that doing the operation a second time was pretty medically ill-advised as it was, and I vaguely recall him saying he couldn't have pulled it off again, but maybe they'd figure it out? Schill's Game 2, 6-4-1-0-1-4, was nearly as good as Lowe's outing. It was Wakefield who was a huge question mark performance-wise, and Arroyo was relegated to relief duty but could do long-relief if needed. So who would go? If he's available, I guess you'd want Schilling gm 5, Pedro gm 6, Lowe / kitchen sink gm 7. If Schilling's not available, you probably have to chance another Wakefield start in game 5, and odds are he's lit up like a christmas tree.

In the bullpen, Embree, Timlin and Foulke had like one good ligament between them by the end of WS game 4. Those 3 (plus Arroyo in long relief for G1 and short relief for G4) were the ONLY relievers to see the field that entire series. Playoff Tito did not fuck around. So yeah, I guess my biggest concerns would be "is a blowup coming for one of our overworked Bullpen Three", and "if it happens, who can we run out there?". Curtis Leskanic's career was already over, Mike Myers had had his clock strike midnight, Mendoza was left off the WS roster, and there were literally no other pitchers. Basically you run Arroyo out there and hope for the best.
Schilling was done. He has said as much. So yeah...it gets dicey.
 

mikeford

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Foulke literally sacrificed the rest of his career on the altar of the Curse to make 2004 happen. I think that has to be HEAVILY weighted when you talk about this.

Foulke got my vote.
 

Bozo Texino

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Quick shoutout to Mark Bellhorn. Between Game 6 of the ALCS and Game 1 of the World Series: 4-9, 3 HR, 6 RBI.
BONG

Those Cardinals had:

Pujols: .331/.415/.667/1.072, 173 ops+, 46 hr, 123 rbi
Rolen: .314/.409/.598/1.007, 158 ops+, 34 hr, 124 rbi
Edmonds: .301/.418/.643/1.061, 171 ops+, 42 hr, 111 rbi

Those three went a combined 6-45, with 0 hr and 2 rbi...

Pujols: 5-15, 0 hr, 1 rbi
Rolen: 0-15, 0 hr, 1 rbi
Edmonds: 1-15, 0 hr, 0 rbi

Sox pitching just completely shut those guys down.
They also had Larry Walker.
 

greek_gawd_of_walks

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It's Ortiz for me, because he was the proverbial straw that stirred the 04 (and all consequent chanpionships) drink.

But, the darkhorse is Lowe. Banished to the bullpen, he didn't quit on the team or himself after a pretty dismal season. He stayed ready and was the winner in all clinchers. And his stats during the run speak for themselves.

I go:

Ortiz
Lowe
Foulke
Schilling

Granted, it's a razor's edge for the last three in regards to the pecking order.
 
Last edited:

Red(s)HawksFan

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Taken a step further, if we didn't sweep them, we could have easily lost the series. Our pitching was in absolute tatters.
I reluctantly agree with this. The Sox-Yankees series overshadowed how outstanding the NLCS was between the Cards and Astros. The Cards were just as gassed as the Sox were at the start of that World Series, as evidenced by how sloppy everyone looked in Game 1. I think if the Cards pull that game out, the whole series goes differently. Their pitching was at least lined up for the series.
 

threecy

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Ortiz, Ramirez, Pedro, and Lowe were huge. The 2003 team was great, but it needed a little bit more to push it over the top. Schilling and Folke were they key ingredients.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Pujols: 5-15, 0 hr, 1 rbi
Rolen: 0-15, 0 hr, 1 rbi
Edmonds: 1-15, 0 hr, 0 rbi

Sox pitching just completely shut those guys down.
And that was really all they had to do, because that was surely one of the most lopsided lineups ever to make it to the WS. Their 3-5 guys were even better than ours, but that was basically all she wrote. They only had three batting order slots with an OPS over .825; the Sox only had three with an OPS below that.
 

BaseballJones

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And that was really all they had to do, because that was surely one of the most lopsided lineups ever to make it to the WS. Their 3-5 guys were even better than ours, but that was basically all she wrote. They only had three batting order slots with an OPS over .825; the Sox only had three with an OPS below that.
They had Sanders, who had 22 homers and a 103 ops+. They had Walker, who had 11 homers in just 150 ab and a 144 ops+. They had Mabry, who had 13 homers in 240 ab and a 123 ops+. They had Lankford, who had a 100 ops+. And even Womack (.307 avg) and Renteria (.287 avg) gave them something. But Lankford was out for the WS, and Mabry only had 4 ab in the WS.

They led the NL in runs scored with 855. They were a terrific offensive team.
 

amRadio

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The bloody sock game was the most clutch pitching performance of my lifetime. Pitched by a blowhard garbage bigot who I have not a shred of respect for as a human. Still, at that point in Sox history, against that Yankees team down 3-2? I can't think of any greater moment for a Red Sox SP in the playoffs. I'll give him a vote because I'm assuming I'll be the only one.

E: I was the second, which only means that fat boy still lurks here. Neato.