Mr. Chemistry

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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Ainge is no dummy. He had to realize by midseason last year that Mr. Chemistry was part of the problem, not part of the solution. I now wonder whether all those "talks" about him re-signing were mostly Ainge saying, "nahhh, not now," knowing full-well that it was really "never" from his side, regardless of what the player wanted.
 

Van Everyman

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I love Ainge but that’s maybe a bit 4D chess even for him. Kyrie wasn’t really like this in 2017-2018, or so it seemed anyway. My guess is that Ainge was really hoping Kyrie would pull it together last year and it just kept spiraling. Once it became obvious that wasn’t happening, I think the issue raised by some here—replacing Kyrie’s talent in case he left rather than asking whether we actually needed to—became Ainge’s main focus.

So far so good tho.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I love Ainge but that’s maybe a bit 4D chess even for him. Kyrie wasn’t really like this in 2017-2018, or so it seemed anyway. My guess is that Ainge was really hoping Kyrie would pull it together last year and it just kept spiraling. Once it became obvious that wasn’t happening, I think the issue raised by some here—replacing Kyrie’s talent in case he left rather than asking whether we actually needed to—became Ainge’s main focus.

So far so good tho.
I don't remember Kyrie harping on his teammates as much in 2017-18. Maybe that was because everyone was in shock because of GH's injury and there weren't many expectations at the time. Then at crunch time, Kyrie was unable to play and thus he was out of the equation.

Either that or maybe JB and JT were a bit more receptive but if it were me, it would probably be grating to hear Mr. Chemistry harping on precision, limiting mistakes, and paying attention to details when he can't be bothered to run the offense - particularly after JB and JT were a game away from advancing to the championship.
 

bigq

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You think a guy with an ego as big as him would sit out a game like this?
Remember how Rondo used to raise his level of play for nationally televised games? I’m expecting a similar dynamic for Kyrie for his first game against Boston. I think he will have a monster game but I don’t think he can beat this Celtics team by himself. Maybe my initial impulse is wrong and instead he will have 12 points while shooting 20% for the game along with 7 turnovers in a big loss.
 

Van Everyman

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I don’t think he can beat this Celtics team by himself.
I mean, he could do it for a game, probably. He didn't do it alone, but this is kind of what he brought in Game 1 against MIL last year. It's not that he can't be The Man on the court. It's that he can't be that guy in any kind of sustainable way. He lacks the size to drive consistently through traffic and bigs and absorb that kind of contact. He's doesn't have the defensive ability to impact the other end of the court -- the delta between him guarding Giannis in that series and Smarf last night is, like, Grand Canyon-esque. And, say what you will about Lebron, but his leadership qualities are significantly better than Kyrie's.

Again, it could still happen for a game -- and if it did, I'm sure it would mean a lot to him. But it wouldn't change anything in the grand scheme of things. What's going to be interesting is when Durant comes back next year and these guys who have spent the last 5 years being successful when they've been partnered with other All World talents think they have to be that All World talent for each other. Yikes.
 

nighthob

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Ainge is no dummy. He had to realize by midseason last year that Mr. Chemistry was part of the problem, not part of the solution. I now wonder whether all those "talks" about him re-signing were mostly Ainge saying, "nahhh, not now," knowing full-well that it was really "never" from his side, regardless of what the player wanted.
If Ainge knew Kyrie would have been shipped to the Knicks.
 

joe dokes

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I love Ainge but that’s maybe a bit 4D chess even for him. Kyrie wasn’t really like this in 2017-2018, or so it seemed anyway. My guess is that Ainge was really hoping Kyrie would pull it together last year and it just kept spiraling. Once it became obvious that wasn’t happening, I think the issue raised by some here—replacing Kyrie’s talent in case he left rather than asking whether we actually needed to—became Ainge’s main focus.

So far so good tho.
I agree. My theory was that it wasn't until last year that Ainge resolved to not sign him.


If Ainge knew Kyrie would have been shipped to the Knicks.
Could be. But at the same time, Ainge was also grappling with the "problem" of still trying to win last year, and it's not irrational to think both that: 1)we need him this year to have any chance; but 2) NFW I'm signing him long-term.
 

lexrageorge

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I do believe Ainge truly thought that he could add the right pieces around Kyrie and build a winning roster and convince Kyrie to stay. He probably thought that right up until April or so, at which point it probably became obvious that Kyrie would be gone.

Ainge thought he was getting AD.
Maybe. Or maybe he was just staying in the hunt just to keep the Lakers honest and not miss an opportunity.
 

allstonite

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I would pay anything to watch Marcus Smart do to Kyrie what he did to Giannis last night.
I have to think Jaylen will want the Kyrie assignment. It's been said before but imagine being an actually intelligent and thoughtful guy like him and having to put up with Kyrie's faux-intellectual BS night after night while at the same time Irving is inserting himself as option A on the floor for a team that already went to game 7 of a conference final the year before without him.
 

Red Averages

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I have to think Jaylen will want the Kyrie assignment. It's been said before but imagine being an actually intelligent and thoughtful guy like him and having to put up with Kyrie's faux-intellectual BS night after night while at the same time Irving is inserting himself as option A on the floor for a team that already went to game 7 of a conference final the year before without him.
Forget the games. Imagine flying all over the country, on airplanes, on the bus, at the hotel, at practice constantly stuck listening to it.
 

JCizzle

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I have to think Jaylen will want the Kyrie assignment. It's been said before but imagine being an actually intelligent and thoughtful guy like him and having to put up with Kyrie's faux-intellectual BS night after night while at the same time Irving is inserting himself as option A on the floor for a team that already went to game 7 of a conference final the year before without him.
Agree with all of this!
 

tims4wins

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I need to go back to the OP, and this quote. I'm no basketball expert, but isn't trading baskets, like 90% of the game?

In the NBA, it’s hard to manage a game when you’re trading baskets. Like, it’s one of the most difficult things to do in the game, when you go up by five, then you give up a three, a two, fouls, slowing the game down.
 

lars10

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Forget the games. Imagine flying all over the country, on airplanes, on the bus, at the hotel, at practice constantly stuck listening to it.
I imagine Tatum would love to play against him as well.. regardless they’re going to play team D on him.

one reason I’m happy he ended up in Brooklyn is because they’re a young team that was starting to put it together.. Kyrie has shown how well he integrates into a young team. Let’s see how he effects their development positively or negatively. The more I see him play the more he seems to just be worried about his numbers and if they lose it’s everyone else’s fault.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Nets are 1-3, but Mr. Chemistry is lighting it up with 35.3/6.3/6.0 averages through 4 games. Maybe this is what he always wanted?
 

Imbricus

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"Kenny Atkinson on Nets offense: “We’re not really running anything.. we’ve kinda lost a little bit of our structure and organization.”
This is exactly what happened with the Celtics last year. Irving wanted to play outside of the system. His idea of running a play in the final seconds was just get him the ball and let him see what he could do. Then he showed he wasn't afraid of chewing you out in front of everyone if he didn't get the last shot ... good riddance indeed.
 

reggiecleveland

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The Nets hoped, or are still hoping they would get a honeymoon year or two before Kyrie started Kyrieing. I thought Kyrie may be what we call a "three teamer" a stubborn guy with attitude problems that, by the his third team figures out some of it, at least is him. Most guys get it the 2nd team. Really common in college. where guys accept their role after transferring, but it is tough to accept it where you were first recruited.
 

Reverend

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The Nets hoped, or are still hoping they would get a honeymoon year or two before Kyrie started Kyrieing. I thought Kyrie may be what we call a "three teamer" a stubborn guy with attitude problems that, by the his third team figures out some of it, at least is him. Most guys get it the 2nd team. Really common in college. where guys accept their role after transferring, but it is tough to accept it where you were first recruited.
Interesting take. I can see it.

Now that you mention it, he fairly screams Ruined By Early Success too, doesn’t he?
 

DJnVa

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Up on Houston in the 3rd---6 turnovers so far. Outside shot at a quadruple double if this keeps up.
 

Euclis20

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Nets blow a 14 point second half lead to a terminally mediocre Detroit team. Mr. Chemistry puts up 20 points on 21 shots, although he was the only starter with a positive +/-.
 

luckiestman

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I feel like we have incubated Mr Chemistry here long enough and we should unleash it on social media
 
Sep 13, 2013
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Nets-Pistons was the first I've seen of Mr C. this season. Granted, it was a back to back on the road, but he did not pretend to give any defensive effort. None of the Nets did, just low effort, low energy all around. The O/U is 43.5 but they look like a 30 win team.
What is the O/U on how many games till Atkinson is fired?
 

lovegtm

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Nets-Pistons was the first I've seen of Mr C. this season. Granted, it was a back to back on the road, but he did not pretend to give any defensive effort. None of the Nets did, just low effort, low energy all around. The O/U is 43.5 but they look like a 30 win team.
What is the O/U on how many games till Atkinson is fired?
Only happening if Durant wants it. Kyrie doesn't have firing and hiring power imo.
 

tims4wins

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Any good post game quotes? This thread needs quotes from Mr C after each loss, especially when they blow a 14 point lead
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Any good post game quotes? This thread needs quotes from Mr C after each loss, especially when they blow a 14 point lead
There's a new interview by Joe Vardon in the Athletic. I don't have a subscription, but here's one summary:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-kyrie-irving-kenny-atkinson-spencer-dinwiddie-20191102-t3kmsbimpjdq3mm4czxwvkz7sq-story.html
Like this quote:
“I think at this point in my career, it’s just about doing whatever is needed,” Irving said. “I understand how special I am with the basketball in my hands and being at the top tier of scoring, and I think that I am capable of doing so. I don’t mind showing it for the rest of the season. It’s not even so much an individual goal, it’s something that James [Harden] is asked to do for his team and it’s something I’m going to be asked to do for my team this year.
“If [Kevin Durant] was playing and on the court, it would probably be a little bit different. But you just understand that whatever the game needs, you just give it.”
Irving of course has apologized for his lapses in leadership while in Boston. The experience seems to have made him more thoughtful about the challenge.
“I think it’s just the realization that I’m going to be one of the leaders, regardless (of) whether I want to come out and say it or not,” Irving said. “That’s part of the responsibility of being one of the best players on the team, is really taking responsibility for gearing up the guys, or utilizing your experience, or utilizing your talent, not just for your own scoring or not just for defense, but for rallying the guys. It’s just, when you come out and say it, you put a lot more emphasis on it.”
 

DJnVa

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Nets blow a 14 point second half lead to a terminally mediocre Detroit team. Mr. Chemistry puts up 20 points on 21 shots, although he was the only starter with a positive +/-.
I'm not sure what the problem is. Mr. C had a triple double.
 

Van Everyman

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There's a new interview by Joe Vardon in the Athletic. I don't have a subscription, but here's one summary:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-kyrie-irving-kenny-atkinson-spencer-dinwiddie-20191102-t3kmsbimpjdq3mm4czxwvkz7sq-story.html
Like this quote:
“I think at this point in my career, it’s just about doing whatever is needed,” Irving said. “I understand how special I am with the basketball in my hands and being at the top tier of scoring, and I think that I am capable of doing so. I don’t mind showing it for the rest of the season. It’s not even so much an individual goal, it’s something that James [Harden] is asked to do for his team and it’s something I’m going to be asked to do for my team this year.
“If [Kevin Durant] was playing and on the court, it would probably be a little bit different. But you just understand that whatever the game needs, you just give it.”
Irving of course has apologized for his lapses in leadership while in Boston. The experience seems to have made him more thoughtful about the challenge.
“I think it’s just the realization that I’m going to be one of the leaders, regardless (of) whether I want to come out and say it or not,” Irving said. “That’s part of the responsibility of being one of the best players on the team, is really taking responsibility for gearing up the guys, or utilizing your experience, or utilizing your talent, not just for your own scoring or not just for defense, but for rallying the guys. It’s just, when you come out and say it, you put a lot more emphasis on it.”
Forget the lack of self awareness. These quotes are meaningless, circular garbage.
 

benhogan

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Nets-Pistons was the first I've seen of Mr C. this season. Granted, it was a back to back on the road, but he did not pretend to give any defensive effort. None of the Nets did, just low effort, low energy all around. The O/U is 43.5 but they look like a 30 win team.
What is the O/U on how many games till Atkinson is fired?
If Atkinson gets fired, David Griffin would be outside his door with a job offer the next day

As far as defense, Kyrie feels like he can turn it on/off whenever he likes. Modern defense is predicated on switching, rotating, helping, and positioning, your weakest link can destroy defensive efficiency. Furthermore, if one guy is bad or inconsistent on D it can destroy the overall effort from all. This needs to be part of Kyrie versus Kemba comparison equation. AND why I scoff at the concept of Kyrie being significantly better/more talented then Kemba. Attitude, effort and consistency count.

A team's defense is only as strong as its weakest defender.
 
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chilidawg

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If Atkinson gets fired, David Griffin would be outside his door with a job offer the next day

As far as defense, Kyrie feels like he can turn it on/off whenever he likes. Modern defense is predicated on switching, rotating, helping, and positioning, your weakest link just destroys the defensive effort of the other 4. If one guy is bad or inconsistent on D it can furthermore destroy the overall effort from all. This needs to be part of Kyrie versus Kemba comparison equation. AND why I scoff at the concept of Kyrie being significantly better/more talented then Kemba. Attitude, effort and consistency count.

A team's defense is only as strong as its weakest defender.
That's a lovely little homily, but is it actually true? The C's teams with IT were pretty good defensively, and he was about as weak (not for lack of effort though) a defender as I can remember.
 

Smokey Joe

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That's a lovely little homily, but is it actually true? The C's teams with IT were pretty good defensively, and he was about as weak (not for lack of effort though) a defender as I can remember.
I think the key term there is inconsistent. The IT Celtics knew exactly what they had from IT all the time. If you have someone who gives variable effort, does that throw the whole defensive scheme off? Can you adjust to “sometimes he’s going to show up and sometimes not.” How many times can you make that adjustment before you go “Fuck it. If he’s not going to try, why should I cover for him.”
 

Phil Plantier

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Jay Williams on Zack Lowe's podcast this week. Williams said he watched Kyrie during timeouts in one game, and that Kyrie was often talking to KD and not talking to the coach.
 

benhogan

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That's a lovely little homily, but is it actually true? The C's teams with IT were pretty good defensively, and he was about as weak (not for lack of effort though) a defender as I can remember.
It's more of an effort/consistency thing I was getting at. Kyrie basically told reporters all last season in postgame interviews, after losses, that he'd turn it on in the playoffs.

Plus Brad is pretty good at hiding players' flaws (IT's defense). Kyrie had/has zero interest in being coached, he's Kenny's problem (defensive effort) now.

^what Smokey Joe said^
 
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chilidawg

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I think the key term there is inconsistent. The IT Celtics knew exactly what they had from IT all the time. If you have someone who gives variable effort, does that throw the whole defensive scheme off? Can you adjust to “sometimes he’s going to show up and sometimes not.” How many times can you make that adjustment before you go “Fuck it. If he’s not going to try, why should I cover for him.”
Good point.
 

djbayko

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There's a new interview by Joe Vardon in the Athletic. I don't have a subscription, but here's one summary:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-kyrie-irving-kenny-atkinson-spencer-dinwiddie-20191102-t3kmsbimpjdq3mm4czxwvkz7sq-story.html
Like this quote:
“I think at this point in my career, it’s just about doing whatever is needed,” Irving said. “I understand how special I am with the basketball in my hands and being at the top tier of scoring, and I think that I am capable of doing so. I don’t mind showing it for the rest of the season. It’s not even so much an individual goal, it’s something that James [Harden] is asked to do for his team and it’s something I’m going to be asked to do for my team this year.
“If [Kevin Durant] was playing and on the court, it would probably be a little bit different. But you just understand that whatever the game needs, you just give it.”
Irving of course has apologized for his lapses in leadership while in Boston. The experience seems to have made him more thoughtful about the challenge.
“I think it’s just the realization that I’m going to be one of the leaders, regardless (of) whether I want to come out and say it or not,” Irving said. “That’s part of the responsibility of being one of the best players on the team, is really taking responsibility for gearing up the guys, or utilizing your experience, or utilizing your talent, not just for your own scoring or not just for defense, but for rallying the guys. It’s just, when you come out and say it, you put a lot more emphasis on it.”
King of the humble brag. Reading this makes me want to gouge my eyes out,
 

lovegtm

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That's a lovely little homily, but is it actually true? The C's teams with IT were pretty good defensively, and he was about as weak (not for lack of effort though) a defender as I can remember.
IT was nearly unplayable in the playoffs due to D, when teams started hunting him. Brad had to change the rotations in the Wizards series to match him up against benches as much as possible.

The Celtics finished 13th in net rating in 2016-2017, and 2nd (by a hair) in 2017-2018 once IT was gone. In last year's trashfire season, they were 7th.