It's the Robert Chambers Defense, but with texts. 30 years later, and here we are.
MLB suspends Trevor Bauer for 2 years with no pay
- Thread starter ThePrideofShiner
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I'm not sure if that's directed toward me because you think I'm defending TB. I think the anal and punching factors are more than enough to incriminate TB. I am, however, surprised that she's inviting to be choked unconscious and more messages like that could certainly help support Bauer's defense.
Not really directed at you and I know this is a super-charged topic so I'll leave it at this.
Those texts have been out for a while now and in and of themselves probably don't move the needle much given the allegations. It's not going to affect the restraining order hearing on July 27 and IMO the most likely path is that there are guilty pleas/settlement that keep this case from ever going to tal.
Obviously, we can all imagine facts that would make this a lot worse for Bauer and I suppose the same might be true with respect to the victim but as Joe Dokes mentioned, Bauer's attorneys are currently running with the idea that just because the victim is into kink and willingly walked into Bauer's house a second time, Bauer was entitled to do whatever he wanted.
Hopefully this case can be an object lesson on what consent really means.
edit: it's interesting to me that Bauer texted the victim that he "would never do anything to hurt anyone. That includes you" - as if he didn't hurt her.
I'll also post this article on Bauer and consent, which has a more exhaustive discussion of the topic: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2021/7/2/22559260/trevor-bauer-sexual-assault-allegations-flirtation-text-messages-and-consent
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I have a question that's been bugging me about this situation, and I hope it isn't viewed as a digression. It's regarding the choking scenarios described in the texts and other materials related to the case. To me (someone who has no experience with either choking someone, or being choked), it seems like a serious high-wire act. I can only imagine that to choke someone to a specific degree, to some sort of target zone between consciousness and death, could go wrong in so many foreseeable ways.
Depending on the relative strength of the participants, there would seem to be a thin line where just a slight mistake could cause permanent injury or death. It's not like giving consent to a licensed anesthesiologist. Is there any way that anyone should be allowed to either ask for or give consent to something that seemingly dangerous?
Also, I've always had a "live and let live" outlook on the almost infinite ingredients people put into their private sex lives in order to pursue as much pleasure or intimacy as possible, but always with the caveat " as long as you don't hurt anybody". There has to be a point where the pursuit of pleasure gets so entangled with violence that many people would at least seem to be better served to seek therapy as opposed to going on an app to find someone to hurt them. There's no shortage of people like Bauer who are OK with hurting women. A good therapist (and please don't trot out "Kink-shaming!" here, as I don't believe there should be any shame attached to mental health treatment) may take longer, and be harder to find, but would at least be trying to help a potential victim instead of hurting them.
Depending on the relative strength of the participants, there would seem to be a thin line where just a slight mistake could cause permanent injury or death. It's not like giving consent to a licensed anesthesiologist. Is there any way that anyone should be allowed to either ask for or give consent to something that seemingly dangerous?
Also, I've always had a "live and let live" outlook on the almost infinite ingredients people put into their private sex lives in order to pursue as much pleasure or intimacy as possible, but always with the caveat " as long as you don't hurt anybody". There has to be a point where the pursuit of pleasure gets so entangled with violence that many people would at least seem to be better served to seek therapy as opposed to going on an app to find someone to hurt them. There's no shortage of people like Bauer who are OK with hurting women. A good therapist (and please don't trot out "Kink-shaming!" here, as I don't believe there should be any shame attached to mental health treatment) may take longer, and be harder to find, but would at least be trying to help a potential victim instead of hurting them.
You are not wrong. Choking someone to the point of unconsciousness can absolutely lead to death or permanent damage because the people involved usually aren’t medical professionals and can make mistakes. It’s called autoerotic asphyxiation and it’s very risky.
The legal process is not waiting. In terms of the RO, the hearing is on a docket. Short of Bauer taking action to justify further adjudication against him, that hearing won't be moved up or changed. There are alleged crimes in CA other than Bauer's and they all get their day in court. There are also open investigations into his conduct. The purpose of those is not to jump at a charge the second one seems possible, but rather to build an investigative case that can be leveraged for prosecution. Those take time.
It has been a week since the RO was filed. The timing of the follow-up hearing seems reasonable, and the investigations have started. I trust the professionals who are investigating.
I have some knowledge of this in a different context; it’s probably less dangerous than you are imagining but not without risk.
No, it's not. Autoerotic Asphyxiation is when you choke yourself and masturbate.
Having someone else choke you is completely different.
First, just wanted to point out that while RO was filed a week ago, the victim went to the police in May and had a call monitored by the police on May 21. As mentioned upthread, police spokesperson said that the investigation is "bigger than [the police] thought," which could obviously cut in a lot of different ways, but the investigations have been going on longer than the RO filing.
Also, curious to know what you meant by "There are alleged crimes in CA other than Bauer's and they all get their day in court." Was this a typo? If not, what other crimes other than Bauer's are you referring to?
The whole consent defense is stupid because you cannot consent to a battery of the kind that would result in fucking skull fractures (or honestly even being choked unconscious).
For serious bodily harm, consent is not something the legal system just accepts generally without question.
And personally - I’m OK with that. Harms outweigh the benefits and I don’t think there’s an epidemic of “doms” getting prosecuted despite actually getting consent.
For serious bodily harm, consent is not something the legal system just accepts generally without question.
And personally - I’m OK with that. Harms outweigh the benefits and I don’t think there’s an epidemic of “doms” getting prosecuted despite actually getting consent.
I think the point McDrew was making is with regard to scheduling. The Bauer case isn't moving faster because there are loads of other cases the courts (and law enforcement) are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. Nothing specific, just that it's not a matter of the judge or the prosecutor dragging his or her feet.
Jorge Castillo
@jorgecastillo
I asked Dave Roberts if he expects Trevor Bauer to return to the Dodgers by the end of the week. Roberts: "I don't see it happening." Bauer was placed on seven-day paid administrative leave Friday. MLB would need approval from the union to extend it.
@jorgecastillo
I asked Dave Roberts if he expects Trevor Bauer to return to the Dodgers by the end of the week. Roberts: "I don't see it happening." Bauer was placed on seven-day paid administrative leave Friday. MLB would need approval from the union to extend it.
That makes sense, thanks for clarifying.
If anyone is interested, the CA DV Prevention Act can be found here: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=FAM&division=10.&title=&part=4.&chapter=2.&article=1.
With regards to the restraining order full hearings, the statute provides that it should be not less than 21 days (25 days if good cause is shown) from the date of an ex parte order.
Are you speaking as a lawyer here or just a person on the internet?
Let's create a hypothetical. You and I are best friends and I say hey "I bet you can't punch me and knock me out. I give you permission to try" You punch me and then I press charges, get a restraining order, and sue you for punching and fracturing my skull. Thoughts?
This is not the same as TB and the victim, but I'm challenging your point on consent and the law, which I think is more grey than you're assuming.
In Washington state you can consent to mutual combat (don’t know if this changed but I know it used to be true). There were some funny videos of guys yelling mutual combat before fighting and cops watching.
Edit:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_combat
Notable examplesEdit
In 2012, MMA fighter Phoenix Jones hit the headlines for engaging in mutual combat.[5] A video of the fight went viral.[6] The Seattle Police Department later defended their officers for not intervening.[3] The Seattle Municipal Code 12A.06.025 states that "It is unlawful for any person to intentionally fight with another person in a public place and thereby create a substantial risk of: 1. Injury to a person who is not actively participating in the fight; or 2. Damage to the property of a person who is not actively participating in the fight."[7] Thus since the fight did not injure a third party or damage property, it was allowed by this law.
Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?
I'm not going to break down your hypothetical because I'd need to know a lot more about whether you have a case. Generally speaking, a restraining order wouldn't be available because you weren't in a dating relationship. You could press charges but I doubt your friend would be arrested without a great deal of more information. Finally, you could file a civil suit but just on your facts, there would be no damages so no reason to pursue it. Plus, you'd lose your best friend.
And I mention that last part because generally speaking - the relationship is an integral part of consent.
I mean let's turn it around. A complete stranger walks up to you and says, "Go ahead punch me as hard as you can." He says this to you a bunch of times. You even have it on videotape. And you hit him so hard he ends up having to go to the ER. Think you'd be able to argue consent?
As I understand it, when she first got examined, someone said that they suspected a skull fracture but the MRI apparently did not find one.
https://breakinggrips.com/mutual-combat-law-washington/ talks about why that interpretation is likely wrong. https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/how-far-will--mutual-combat--hold-up-in-court--if--1132222.html has a Washington attorney's opinion that “There is no exception at law for Mutual Combat.”
https://rhodeslegalgroup.com/criminal-law/mutual-combat/ also points out that who's charging you matters: just because it's not against Seattle municipal code doesn't mean you can't be charged in Washington state (or federal) courts. It also notes that mutual combat is never a way out of civil liability. Also, just because it doesn't violate the public fighting law doesn't mean it doesn't violate other laws (e.g. battery).
Mutual combat is technically illegal in most (all?) states, but in many areas the cops won't actually charge the participants unless one is grievously injured (in part because if both participants take the 5th, proving anything is difficult, and in part because if nobody was hurt too badly then there are bigger fish to fry).
Consent to battery is complex, but it's unlikely to apply here. The details vary by state, but typically the ability to consent to battery is narrowly construed (these laws are mostly written to allow contact sports and the like) and requires that:
https://www.justia.com/criminal/defenses/consent/
Exceeding the bounds of what was consented to brings battery back into play, as well (e.g. a hard tackle in soccer is probably protected, but tripping someone on the sidelines during a game isn't).
I have a question Re: the texts. Couldn't her telling him that she wanted him to choke her unconscious be the lingo that they used? Like, if she texted "I want you to choke the shit out of me"...I doubt that she would want him to take her literally?
There are a lot of reasons why Trevor messed up. I can't see confusion of the terminology being one of them. Especially as she articulated that the literal "going out" part was the turn on and "never been so turned on in my life." Hard to argue it meant anything else.
So, apparently Bauer's camp sent unredacted medical records of the victim out to media agencies in an attempt to exonerate him. Cool cool.
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2021/7/6/22563919/trevor-bauer-domestic-abuse-medical-records
https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2021/7/6/22563919/trevor-bauer-domestic-abuse-medical-records
Otherwise known as the Kobe defense. If you can’t defend yourself, just start accidentally on purpose giving out the survivor’s information and let the mob do the rest. Oops.
Phoenix Jones is also a crazy person who is a self-styled Superhero, dressing up and performing vigilante crime-fighting.
(he has since been busted for selling drugs, so I guess he lived long enough to see himself become the villain)
I know I'm way out over my skis here, but there is something about this whole issue of consent to potentially dangerous/deadly sexual behavior that I've been wondering about. Suppose for a moment their kink was gun fantasies, I'm sure that fetish must exist. Similar texts are discovered along with any other evidence describing that sexual aspect of the relationship. There is some sort of previous activity where a gun was place to either of their heads, threats made and then eventually the harmless "click" or series of clicks as the chamber empties. Lets say the gun had been used since the last encounter for target practice and thought to have been emptied before the next tryst, except one bullet was in advertently left in the chamber. Obviously you see where I'm going with this. Negligent homicide? Apples to oranges in some respects I'm sure, but my point is there have to be responsibilities and consequences to certain things that are deemed "mutual"
yeah, I mean any of these can go terribly wrong and without notice one participant can take things beyond what may have been agreed to as mutual. I mean the idea being I would think that if X is amazing, what if we took it to Y or Z?
Or worse. It could be made to look like an accident.
It's an old article but the rough sex excuse is being used a lot more.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/10/rough-sex-excuse-in-womens-deaths-is-variation-of-of-passion-study
Wow, what a terrifying story. And I'm not talking about Bauer's.
Thanks for posting.
Just to play devils advocate, txt screenshots can easily be faked. So unless the police already have the originals from the cell provider, they might just be mere red herrings.
Edit; Forgot to mention, I'm sure they already do have the records.
Edit; Forgot to mention, I'm sure they already do have the records.
Not a lawyer, but a law school grad studying for the bar. It varies by jurisdiction but I remember being assigned some old cases during Crim regarding BDSM-esque activity and consent. Some of them were a bit old (I remember a 1960s one in CA called People v. Samuels?) but the main takeaway was (1) that Courts are generally skeptical of the notion of consent to bodily harm and (2) many jurisdiction‘s statutes nowadays explicitly limit consent to harm to harm that is not serious.
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/07/07/dodgers-cancel-trevor-bauer-bobblehead-night-remove-merchandise-from-team-store/
Well, there's this.
Well, there's this.
Seems like the Dodgers are distancing themselves from Bauer.
August 19th, ehh. Doesn't sound like this is going to be a case of two adults having "brief and wholly consensual sexual relationship."
Even if that is some how what is decided, I think Bauer is beyond being celebrated.
@bnightengale: Trevor Bauer's administrative leave has been extended 7 days.
No big shocker here.
I'm surprised and not that there was an article for this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_domestic_violence
Closest precedent is probably Odubel Herrera. Day 5 of the 2nd week of administrative was when it was announced that he was suspended, retroactive to the start of the suspension, and forward through the end of the year. Herrera was arrested and charged, but the charges were dropped on day 3 of week 2. He was still given a "rest of the season" suspension.
Roberto Osuna was arrested for assault and immediately put on the Commisioner's list in 2018. Vic left the country and did not return, but a protective order was put in place. 75 game suspension was given approximately a month later.
Julio Urias was placed on leave on May 14 2019, but was not extended for the second week. Later, he was suspended for 20 games after an investigation.
Domingo German was added to the list during the first week of investigation in 2019. The incident involved a team party and other team members, so that might have affected punishment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_domestic_violence
Closest precedent is probably Odubel Herrera. Day 5 of the 2nd week of administrative was when it was announced that he was suspended, retroactive to the start of the suspension, and forward through the end of the year. Herrera was arrested and charged, but the charges were dropped on day 3 of week 2. He was still given a "rest of the season" suspension.
Roberto Osuna was arrested for assault and immediately put on the Commisioner's list in 2018. Vic left the country and did not return, but a protective order was put in place. 75 game suspension was given approximately a month later.
Julio Urias was placed on leave on May 14 2019, but was not extended for the second week. Later, he was suspended for 20 games after an investigation.
Domingo German was added to the list during the first week of investigation in 2019. The incident involved a team party and other team members, so that might have affected punishment.
Yeah, there were witnesses within MLB (I think teammates but maybe also MLB officials), so he was suspended very quickly.
Administrative leave extended for a third time to August 6. The restraining order civil hearings are next Monday and Tuesday.
On top of that, it looks like his own teammates don’t want him back. Things aren’t going particularly well for him
Ya, I heard this too when I watched this video
View: https://youtu.be/B_fNeEqX_gw
Not sure how much stock, if any, that I put into this video
I think it's more that teammates were told not to comment, so they aren't commenting and planning to just keep going without him. If he's back, he's back, if not, you still have to play
this reference means more to me than you, but this reminds me of what happened with the Syracuse lacrosse team this year
once the team turned on him, you knew it was serious, that the team (who usually will defend teammates at all cost)had heard enough to believe it was true, and that he will never wear the uniform again
There are 3 hearing days scheduled - Aug 2, 3, and 19. https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2021-07-23/trevor-bauer-restraining-order-hearing
Bauer is going to contest making the temporary order permanent but can't actually testify himself because ongoing criminal investigation.
I would assume that defense attorney will put accuser on the stand to get her story to "stand still" - this is basically free discovery if the criminal action goes anywhere.
Probably just a quirk of scheduling. EIther that or the judge is really encouraging the parties to finish up the hearing in 2 days.
If anyone is interested, here's a lengthy article by an attorney on CA's law regarding invoking the 5th Amdt in a civil hearing: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2021/7/27/22594800/trevor-bauer-hearing-strategy-is-a-trial-in-the-court-of-public-opinion
Just came out that he has done this before. It’s just as bad as the other case.
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/mollyhc/status/1426560421490741249
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/mollyhc/status/1426560421490741249