MLB investigating Padres Over Pomeranz Trade

[jon abbey]

Buster Olney just posted an Insider column with the thesis of "Recent trades by the San Diego Padres are drawing scrutiny within the industry over the question of whether they properly shared relevant medical information in trades executed with the Boston Red Sox and the Miami Marlins, according to league sources."

We know about the partially rescinded Rea trade with Miami, but I believe this is new info and relevant here:

"Last month, the Boston Red Sox swapped star pitching prospect Anderson Espinoza for Drew Pomeranz, a left-hander named to the National League All-Star team earlier this year. According to sources, the Red Sox have become aware of medical information with Pomeranz that they believe was not properly disclosed during the trade talks."

That's all he writes.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

Super psyched for MLB to overturn the compensation we gave up. Henry Owens-for Pomeranz. Make it so, universe!

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Cue the "let's get Espinoza back" posts in 3....2....1...

 

[johnnywayback]

Olney notes that "the Red Sox are not seeking remedy or an alteration of their deal for Pomeranz."

 

[jon abbey]

Olney notes that "the Red Sox are not seeking remedy or an alteration of their deal for Pomeranz."

Missed that, sorry.

 

[heavyde050]

Olney notes that "the Red Sox are not seeking remedy or an alteration of their deal for Pomeranz."

Maybe they shouldn't be asking for Espinoza back (don't even want to bring up that topic) but the Sox should sure as anything be asking for some type of remedy.

After the penalties the organization has paid in International signings for not playing by the rules; they should definitely seek some form of retribution from the Padres if there was any underhand dealings in the trade.

Would they be able to get a draft pick or more slot money. The Sox gave up their top pitching prospect. If the Padres withheld info intentionally and Drew is damaged goods the Sox better try to get something out of it.

This should not be a case of no harm no foul if the Padres were at fault.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Maybe they shouldn't be asking for Espinoza back (don't even want to bring up that topic) but the Sox should sure as anything be asking for some type of remedy.

After the penalties the organization has paid in International signings for not playing by the rules; they should definitely seek some form of retribution from the Padres if there was any underhand dealings in the trade.

Would they be able to get a draft pick or more slot money. The Sox gave up their top pitching prospect. If the Padres withheld info intentionally and Drew is damaged goods the Sox better try to get something out of it.

This should not be a case of no harm no foul if the Padres were at fault.

There should be an altered deal if SD did not disclose things on purpose. SD should have to send more to Boston as compensation.

 

[heavyde050]

There should be an altered deal if SD did not disclose things on purpose. SD should have to send more to Boston as compensation.

I agree 100%.

I was more posting that if there were some shenanigans in the disclosure of medical info, the Red Sox should not elect not to seek some type of remedy.

The article made it sound like the Red Sox were okay as is.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Buster Olney just posted an Insider column with the thesis of "Recent trades by the San Diego Padres are drawing scrutiny within the industry over the question of whether they properly shared relevant medical information in trades executed with the Boston Red Sox and the Miami Marlins, according to league sources."

We know about the partially rescinded Rea trade with Miami, but I believe this is new info and relevant here:

"Last month, the Boston Red Sox swapped star pitching prospect Anderson Espinoza for Drew Pomeranz, a left-hander named to the National League All-Star team earlier this year. According to sources, the Red Sox have become aware of medical information with Pomeranz that they believe was not properly disclosed during the trade talks."

That's all he writes.

"Not seeking a remedy" seriously? So DD willingly is getting gamed by Preller?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

"Not seeking a remedy" seriously? So DD willingly is getting gamed by Preller?

Or whatever they didn't disclose about Pomeranz could be minor enough that it isn't worth spending the time to re-hash the deal. I have to think that if it was something for which the Sox could actually extract more value out of the Pads, Dombrowski would pursue it.

 

[johnnywayback]

Or whatever they didn't disclose about Pomeranz could be minor enough that it isn't worth spending the time to re-hash the deal. I have to think that if it was something for which the Sox could actually extract more value out of the Pads, Dombrowski would pursue it.

[ducking] That hasn't been his history with them. [/ducking]

Seriously, though, the issue with Rea was that his elbow blew, and then he told the Marlins staff he had had the problem with San Diego, which was news to the Marlins. If what they left out of Pomeranz's report was, say, a sprained ankle in spring training that he's totally healed from, it would be a violation but maybe not worth blowing up the deal over? I guess?

 

[heavyde050]

[ducking] That hasn't been his history with them. [/ducking]

Seriously, though, the issue with Rea was that his elbow blew, and then he told the Marlins staff he had had the problem with San Diego, which was news to the Marlins. If what they left out of Pomeranz's report was, say, a sprained ankle in spring training that he's totally healed from, it would be a violation but maybe not worth blowing up the deal over? I guess?

I don't know why the Red Sox would even have been included in the report if it was something like the "sprained ankle in spring training".

I am only saying if something medical came up and it was serious enough to cause some type of concern on the Red Sox side, they should try for some type of remedy.

I know the NL West and the AL East are night and day, but some type of injury would go a long way to explaining Drew's mixed results.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

There should be an altered deal if SD did not disclose things on purpose. SD should have to send more to Boston as compensation.

Yeah, DDski should try to get a young hard-thrower in A-ball, at least.

 

[soxfan121]

"Not seeking a remedy" seriously? So DD willingly is getting gamed by Preller?

The Red Sox had several days in which to conduct any medical checks or reviews on Pomeranz before the trade became "official" - it happened weeks before the deadline and Pomeranz did not appear in a Red Sox uniform for at least a week after that. There is nothing at all in the report above suggesting the Red Sox were "gamed" and no reason to think a veteran GM like Dombrowski would forgo "remedy" if he thought he was entitled to it. Much more likely, he is a professional and knows that teams don't willingly disclose every bump or bruise - the rules do not specify what type of medical information is required, and given Dombrowski's long history, he's probably traded a guy with a minor medical issue that he (DD) hasn't disclosed.

Baseball and the unwritten rules - it's FAN-tastic!

Given the Red Sox medical staff cleared Pomeranz - regardless of what the Padres did or did not tell them - the Red Sox medical staff would be to blame for anything the Red Sox medical staff did not find in their examination of Pomeranz and his medical records. If we (fans) are mad at anyone, it is the Red Sox medical staff.

 

[PokeyReesesPieces]

The Red Sox had several days in which to conduct any medical checks or reviews on Pomeranz before the trade became "official" - it happened weeks before the deadline and Pomeranz did not appear in a Red Sox uniform for at least a week after that. There is nothing at all in the report above suggesting the Red Sox were "gamed" and no reason to think a veteran GM like Dombrowski would forgo "remedy" if he thought he was entitled to it. Much more likely, he is a professional and knows that teams don't willingly disclose every bump or bruise - the rules do not specify what type of medical information is required, and given Dombrowski's long history, he's probably traded a guy with a minor medical issue that he (DD) hasn't disclosed.

Baseball and the unwritten rules - it's FAN-tastic!

Given the Red Sox medical staff cleared Pomeranz - regardless of what the Padres did or did not tell them - the Red Sox medical staff would be to blame for anything the Red Sox medical staff did not find in their examination of Pomeranz and his medical records. If we (fans) are mad at anyone, it is the Red Sox medical staff.

lol, this is an extremely naive viewpoint.

 

[soxfan121]

lol, this is an extremely naive viewpoint.

Perhaps you could educate me on why you think that. TIA.

 

[jtn46]

If nothing is physically wrong with Pomeranz to the degree that he isn't on the DL or isn't pitching with a long-term issue like Tanaka's partially torn elbow tendon, I don't see a big reason to seek extra compensation. The Red Sox will negotiate with the Padres in the future about other trades, so this probably isn't worth burning that bridge over, particularly for Dombrowski who I think teams like to trade with because he makes a lot of even trades.

 

[scotian1]

So Padres didn't reveal all medical issues surrounding him., yet Sox don't plan on trying to get trade cancelled.
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/08/05/report-mlb-investigating-whether-padres-shared-all-medicals-with-red-sox-during-drew-pomeranz-trade/

 

[DJnVa]

There's every chance that the info that wasn't disclosed would not have changed the calculus. That doesn't mean that the Sox shouldn't complain.

 

[Dogman]

lol, this is an extremely naive viewpoint.

Your two posts in this thread don't meet the standard of "not sucking". Posts such as "hmmmm" and what I quoted above would be fine if you provided commentary, explanation for your viewpoint, or some kind of intellectual rebuttal to go along with your laziness.

Please do better.

 

[RedOctober3829]

If a player is taking certain medications for an ailment it would be good to know up front. It could sway a team's thinking into the possibility that a small problem could turn bigger in the future.

 

[Dogman]

Moved posts discussing Pomeranz medicals to this thread. New threads are good.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Well .. The fact that the Red Sox appeared to disclose this to Olney would seem to indicate it wasn't completely trivial .. Just not worth kicking up a stink over.

 

[PokeyReesesPieces]

Perhaps you could educate me on why you think that. TIA.

Because you're putting a bunch of blame on the Sox medical staff. Having an accurate medical history is one of the most important and crucial aspects to making a diagnosis. Body is full of wear and tear and varying degrees of injuries, imaging and other methods aren't nearly as clear cut as people think.

If you've ever spent time in a hospital, or say an ICU, you would realize how incredibly important accurate medical histories are.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Well .. The fact that the Red Sox appeared to disclose this to Olney would seem to indicate it wasn't completely trivial .. Just not worth kicking up a stink over.

I'm not seeing why you assume it was the Red Sox that disclosed this to Olney. I mean it's possible. But it's also possible that Olney did some digging in the league office after the Rea debacle. Or a league source contacted him directly. In fact I think the Red Sox being the source are probably lowest on the list of possibilities - if he wasn't going to seek compensation for it, it makes very little sense for DD to leak this and sour relations with Preller.

As to why, there's not really any options. The Rea deal might have been that simple because when it was made it was specifically Rea for Castillo and you just undue that part. If DD blows it up and demands Espinoza back, the Sox are again short a SP and he deadline is gone by. if he demands a different prospect to go the SD, the league can't force SD to accept someone they don't see as valuable and refused the first time. So it drags out like the Theo negotiations and what happens to the players involved during that? Do they still play and risk injury? Force them to sit?

I'm confident that if DD isn't making a stink it's not a serious thing, he's probably done it himself as have most GMs and it's probably something that happens more often than we know. If his arm falls off sharpen your pitch forks. Meantime, the guy that's been doing this quite successfully for a long time probably deserves the benefit of the doubt, as much as people don't want to give it to him for some godforsaken reason.

 

[#1GreenwellFan]

I know the NL West and the AL East are night and day, but some type of injury would go a long way to explaining Drew's mixed results.

Or, more likely (at least IMO) is Drew just has nothing left in the tank. If there's really an injury issue, this won't blow over as easily as Olney has implied.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Or, more likely (at least IMO) is Drew just has nothing left in the tank. If there's really an injury issue, this won't blow over as easily as Olney has implied.

Or maybe players aren't robots and for some of them, being traded to the opposite coast to a new league and assimilating into a new clubhouse in the middle of a pennant race might take something of an adjustment period.

 

[Van Everyman]

Everybody's doing it:

 

[Average Reds]

Or, more likely (at least IMO) is Drew just has nothing left in the tank. If there's really an injury issue, this won't blow over as easily as Olney has implied.

How do you conclude that it is "more likely" that a 27 year old pitcher with 400 MLB innings on him has "nothing left in the tank?" That seems to be an incredibly unlikely explanation for anything.

The most likely explanation is that if DD isn't asking to unwind the trade or adjust the terms, he's making a complaint on principle and what we've seen is a very small sample size. My guess is that the pitcher we saw in his last start is the pitcher we thought we were getting.

 

[soxfan121]

Because you're putting a bunch of blame on the Sox medical staff. Having an accurate medical history is one of the most important and crucial aspects to making a diagnosis. Body is full of wear and tear and varying degrees of injuries, imaging and other methods aren't nearly as clear cut as people think.

If you've ever spent time in a hospital, or say an ICU, you would realize how incredibly important accurate medical histories are.

Indeed, medical history is important. Drew Pomeranz is not a dog, though. If you need to know about his medical history, you can ask him. The team can request his medical records from every physician he has seen or treated by. If he cannot recall the name or provider, that information is available in a host of formats and systems - all requiring the authorization of Drew Pomeranz - not the San Diego Padres. In 2016, with several weeks of time in which to investigate and examine the player, there is absolutely nothing the Padres know that Pomeranz does not.

So, perhaps the blame for not discovering whatever this ailment is (if it even exists) also lies with Pomeranz for not disclosing his full and accurate medical history to the Red Sox medical staff. If Pomeranz had an MRI because of a "sore elbow" that he didn't disclose when examined by the Red Sox medical staff - who's to "blame"? Certainly not the Padres, or their general manager.

If there is an injury, and any "blame" to be dispensed, the Red Sox medical staff stands at the front of the line. They are supposedly experts in discovering and diagnosing the medical problems of baseball players.

The idea the Padres, or their general manager, is somehow to "blame" for information not disclosed by Pomeranz, or his medical records, is ludicrous. The very stupid notion that the Padres "gamed" the Red Sox by withholding medical information - makes less than zero sense in 2016. If the Red Sox medical staff did not have Pomeranz's entire medical record or did not thoroughly investigate Pomeranz's arm (etc.) given the weeks of time they had before he actually took the field in a Red Sox uniform - the Red Sox medical staff would deserve any anger, not the San Diego Padres or their general manager.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

"Not seeking a remedy" seriously? So DD willingly is getting gamed by Preller?

Around here we call it the Kraft Gambit. I expect the penalties to the Pads to be the same as the penalties the Cards paid for their computer shenanigans.

 

[Devizier]

Dave Dombrowski clearly has a reputation of being a good faith negotiator who doesn't try to fleece his partners in every trade. This, in turn, makes it easier for him to facilitate trades. Seeking remediation for prior trades -- even when they are entitled to them -- damages that reputation and makes future trades more difficult. That means that any remedy that the Red Sox could receive might not be worth it (clearly, Dombrowski has made this calculation).

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Or, more likely (at least IMO) is Drew just has nothing left in the tank. If there's really an injury issue, this won't blow over as easily as Olney has implied.

Your opinion is that a 27-year old baseball pitcher in the midst of a career season has burned through all of his physical and mental ability to ever be effective again? That opinion kinda sucks. How did you feel about Jamie Moyer being a reliable starter for the Phillies in his mid-40's after throwing nearly 4000 innings in 20+ ML seasons?

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Around here we call it the Kraft Gambit. I expect the penalties to the Pads to be the same as the penalties the Cards paid for their computer shenanigans.

And what penalties would those be? As far as I know nothing has been announced as yet. The ones mooted were extremely severe .. Loss of multiple first round picks and giving the Astros multiple players off the Cardinal's 40 roster.
.

 

[joe dokes]

Maybe we should wait before we just assume that Pomeranz has UCL Ebola and that the Sox got "gamed" or "fleeced." Nahhh, fuck that. Get the casket ready.

I'm confident that if DD isn't making a stink it's not a serious thing, he's probably done it himself as have most GMs and it's probably something that happens more often than we know. If his arm falls off sharpen your pitch forks. Meantime, the guy that's been doing this quite successfully for a long time probably deserves the benefit of the doubt, as much as people don't want to give it to him for some godforsaken reason.

You're wrong. And his name is Dumbrowkski for a reason.

 

[#1GreenwellFan]

How do you conclude that it is "more likely" that a 27 year old pitcher with 400 MLB innings on him has "nothing left in the tank?" That seems to be an incredibly unlikely explanation for anything.

The most likely explanation is that if DD isn't asking to unwind the trade or adjust the terms, he's making a complaint on principle and what we've seen is a very small sample size. My guess is that the pitcher we saw in his last start is the pitcher we thought we were getting.

I didn't say he was done forever but teams generally increase a developing pitcher's workload gradually, by 15-20 innings per year. He's already increased his workload over his previous high, which was years ago, by way more than even an aggressive organization does it. He's not a developing pitcher but there's no way he can be expected to have a ton left. It's possible but it isn't the most likely scenario. It's also possible that he is just slumping or having some trouble adjusting and the fatigue issue could come later but there's no doubt he will hit a wall at some point.

 

[Unbearable Lightness]

Indeed, medical history is important. Drew Pomeranz is not a dog, though. If you need to know about his medical history, you can ask him. The team can request his medical records from every physician he has seen or treated by. If he cannot recall the name or provider, that information is available in a host of formats and systems - all requiring the authorization of Drew Pomeranz - not the San Diego Padres. In 2016, with several weeks of time in which to investigate and examine the player, there is absolutely nothing the Padres know that Pomeranz does not.

Is that realistic? Red Sox would have to do this with every single player they may have interest in a trade?

 

[doc]

Medical records are HIPPA protected requiring the players consent to obtain and would often take days to weeks to obtain, they are not "available in a host of formats and systems".

 

[Harry Hooper]

It's HIPAA, not HIPPA. Also, pro athletes typically sign waivers concerning the privacy of their health and medical treatments.

From McChrystal:

concerning professional athletes in Major League Baseball (MLB), the National Basketball Association (NBA), the National Hockey League (NHL), and the NFL. The available evidence with respect to these leagues leads to some unsurprising conclusions: Players in these leagues bargain away most of the privacy protection provided by federal law, even though the incentives for players to conceal medical problems sometimes are strong. Teams have a strong interest in gaining comprehensive information about player health for economic and competition reasons, and they have mixed interests in sharing that information with their league and the public.

Perhaps the medical dossiers sent by the Padres to the other teams failed to include (intentionally or incompetently) the records from one of the orthopedists working with the Padres players? The missing info is a serious violation of protocol that matters to MLB, but didn't really mean much for Drew's health profile.

 

[nighthob]

Yeah, DDski should try to get a young hard-thrower in A-ball, at least.

Or San Diego take Sandoval as a throw-in.

 

[DisgruntledSoxFan77]

You're wrong. And his name is Dumbrowkski for a reason.

Seriously with this??

Or San Diego take Sandoval as a throw-in.

That's too cruel a punishment for anyone!

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Do psychological issues need to be disclosed?

I'm not suggesting Pomeranz had any psych issues, and I have no reason to suspect he does, but might it be possible this issue is not necessarily physical?

 

[Harry Hooper]

Do psychological issues need to be disclosed?

I'm not suggesting Pomeranz had any psych issues, and I have no reason to suspect he does, but might it be possible this issue is not necessarily physical?

See Post #11 by johnnywayback in this thread.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

See Post #11 by johnnywayback in this thread.

Apples and oranges in my opinion. A healed minor injury isn't really comparable to a potentially ongoing mental issue.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Apples and oranges in my opinion. A healed minor injury isn't really comparable to a potentially ongoing mental issue.

Another couple of posts and you'll have yourself convinced

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Another couple of posts and you'll have yourself convinced

Convince myself of what exactly? I asked a hypothetical question. I'm not trying to be argumentative about the mental condition of Drew Pomeranz, and even went as far to disclaim that in my first post.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Convince myself of what exactly? I asked a hypothetical question. I'm not trying to be argumentative about the mental condition of Drew Pomeranz, and even went as far to disclaim that in my first post.

Is there any evidence to suggest such a thing in the first place? No
Despite acknowledging no such evidence, did you raise the question anyway? Yes
Did you subsequently suggest that he might have a "potentially ongoing mental issue"? Yes

You keep repeating the insinuation, you're going to convince yourself it's a possibility. That's seantoo level crazy.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Did you miss this part?

I'm not suggesting Pomeranz had any psych issues, and I have no reason to suspect he does, but might it be possible this issue is not necessarily physical?

I'm not trying to convince myself of anything. It seems you're the one content on convincing yourself that I'm insinuating Pomeranz has some sort of psych issue, which I am clearly not.

I'll pose a different question. If the Brian Johnson carjacking story and subsequent PTSD never got out, and the Red Sox were trying to trade him, would they be required to disclose that information.

It's a yes or no question. It's not a suggestion or even speculation that Pomeranz has any sort of psych issue whatsoever.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Did you miss this part?



I'm not trying to convince myself of anything. It seems you're the one content on convincing yourself that I'm insinuating Pomeranz has some sort of psych issue, which I am clearly not.

I'll pose a different question. If the Brian Johnson carjacking story and subsequent PTSD never got out, and the Red Sox were trying to trade him, would they be required to disclose that information.

It's a yes or no question. It's not a suggestion or even speculation that Pomeranz has any sort of psych issue whatsoever.

Okay, I'll make it simple

STOP FUCKING TALKING ABOUT IT.

It's worse than suggesting without evidence that a guy is on PEDs.

YES, IT IS A FUCKING SUGGESTION THAT HE HAS A PSYCH ISSUE.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Okay, I'll make it simple

STOP FUCKING TALKING ABOUT IT.

It's worse than suggesting without evidence that a guy is on PEDs.

YES, IT IS A FUCKING SUGGESTION THAT HE HAS A PSYCH ISSUE.

Is this an example of "seantoo level crazy"? My hypothetical question stands, if an adult wants to answer it. I'm not sure how else I can put it in clear terms, but I'm not going to engage you anymore on the subject.