Mitchell and Gobert on the rocks?

amarshal2

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View: https://twitter.com/bleacherreport/status/1248627503784030212?s=21



Donovan Mitchell reportedly is "reluctant" to fix his relationship with Rudy Gobert.

"It doesn't appear salvageable," a source told @ShamsCharania, @sam_amick and @Tjonesonthenba
“Reluctant” sounds like the type of thing that won’t last. They’ll figure it out.

But what if they don’t? Is the, “Who do you keep Mitchell or Gobert?” Even a discussion? It’s Mitchell, right?

So if they’re going to move Gobert, where would he go? Would the Celtics be interested? Would Hayward S&T, Time Lord, Romeo, and Memphis pick be good for both?

Some of you have to be as desperate for a discussion like this as I am.
 

BigSoxFan

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I bet they figure it out but I would absolutely pounce on Gobert if he were made available. Hayward/Romeo/TL/picks seems fair given Gobert’s contract status.
 

Cellar-Door

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You keep Mitchell bcause he's 23 and on a rookie deal with RFA rights, even though Gobert is the better player.

As to your trade, the answer to that is a hard no. The Jazz probably don't even take a call that doesn't involve Brown. MAYBE you could package Smart, Hayward, Theis, MEM 1 and multiple other 1sts for Gobert and eating Conley's salary? Doubt it though. There will be a team offerring a top young pl;ayer

Gordon Hayward, even if he opts in isn't a real asset, none of those young guys are real assets. The MEM pick isn't even in the lottery if the season ends now.

You aren't getting a top player for salary fill and mid-1sts/equivalents.
 

BigSoxFan

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You keep Mitchell bcause he's 23 and on a rookie deal with RFA rights, even though Gobert is the better player.

As to your trade, the answer to that is a hard no. The Jazz probably don't even take a call that doesn't involve Brown. MAYBE you could package Smart, Hayward, Theis, MEM 1 and multiple other 1sts for Gobert and eating Conley's salary? Doubt it though. There will be a team offerring a top young pl;ayer

Gordon Hayward, even if he opts in isn't a real asset, none of those young guys are real assets. The MEM pick isn't even in the lottery if the season ends now.

You aren't getting a top player for salary fill and mid-1sts/equivalents.
Who is offering a top young player for 1 year of control with Gobert? What guys are you thinking of? I think the Celtics package would have to be amplified but I also thinking that Langford is a real asset due to his defense.
 

the moops

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You don't even think about trading Jaylen Brown for Rudy Gobert. Nor will there be any other really good young player, especially a wing, traded for him. Gobert is awesome, but he is also a free agent after next year and is looking at a max deal. Something like Romeo/MEM/salary filler seems about right to me
 

Cellar-Door

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Who is offering a top young player for 1 year of control with Gobert? What guys are you thinking of? I think the Celtics package would have to be amplified but I also thinking that Langford is a real asset due to his defense.
Ah, I'm misreading his contract. I was showing 2 years left.

Maybe it takes less. I do think that none of those Celtics pieces are going to be considered particularly valuable. I think any top 5 or top 7 lotto protected pick by itself is more valuable.
 

nighthob

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You don't even think about trading Jaylen Brown for Rudy Gobert. Nor will there be any other really good young player, especially a wing, traded for him. Gobert is awesome, but he is also a free agent after next year and is looking at a max deal. Something like Romeo/MEM/salary filler seems about right to me
This and then some.
 

Cellar-Door

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To be clear, I would obviously not trade Brown for Gobert, even if he had 2 years like I thought. However, the Celtics have a bit of a problem right now in looking to trade for a top player. They don't have any top pieces, and the pupu platter approach rarely works. The MEM pick has minimal value, Hayward can opt out, and even if he didn't his contract probably makes him not much of an asset. Smart is an asset. The young guys are all not leading pieces, they are closer to flyers than top prospects.

The Celtics team you see is likely the one you get in terms of top 3 players, likely Kemba/Tatum/Brown is your Big 3 and you just try and see if that is enough to win.
 

RedOctober3829

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I posted this earlier in the 20-21 thread. Just imagining a crunch time lineup of Kemba, Smart, Tatum, Brown, and Gobert makes me happy. Hayward+ would be a reasonable offer. I'd much rather be in a situation to sign Gobert using Bird rights than Hayward.
 

Cellar-Door

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I posted this earlier in the 20-21 thread. Just imagining a crunch time lineup of Kemba, Smart, Tatum, Brown, and Gobert makes me happy. Hayward+ would be a reasonable offer. I'd much rather be in a situation to sign Gobert using Bird rights than Hayward.
I think this is looking purely from the Celtics side though, why would Utah want Hayward.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think this is looking purely from the Celtics side though, why would Utah want Hayward.
Why not? On a short contract and still young enough to have value when it expires. He’s still a pretty good player and they obviously have history. His skill set also plays well with Mitchell. The pupu platter is almost always what teams with stars get when they are dealt on short deals.
 

Kliq

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If the Jazz were to trade Gobert, it would only be because there are irreconcilable differences between Gobert and Mitchell, and perhaps other members of the team. Utah wouldn't really be in a position to try and get fair value for Gobert, they need to get him off the team for personal reasons, as opposed to a team looking to launch a rebuild. Other teams will know this, so in this case I think the pu-pu platter would work because teams know that Utah can't hold onto Gobert if they don't get a fair offer.
 

Cellar-Door

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Moving away from the Celtics. This is a deal I think makes sense for both teams if Utah HAS to trade Gobert:

UTA trades
Rudy Gobert

POR trade
Jusuf Nurkic
Trevor Ariza (non-guaranteed deal)
Nassir Little
Top 7 protected 2020 pick

Might need to futz it a little, but Nurkic is also expiring, Ariza is just filler. POR might be able to hold out on making the pick and Little an either/or, or getting top 10 protection, but generally the outline of it makes sense. Portland doesn't have a lot of ways to add interior defense, and they BADLY need it. Whiteside was the last try and failed (because he's actually not that good of a defender)
 

RedOctober3829

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I think this is looking purely from the Celtics side though, why would Utah want Hayward.
If Gobert/Mitchell is not going to work, then Gobert is the guy to go. They have no leverage because everyone knows there's friction and combined with just the 1 year left on Gobert's deal they won't get a huge haul. Gobert isn't AD so don't expect a Ball/Ingram type return. The market for Gobert isn't going to be that big either. I don't believe any rebuilding teams would go after him.

Milwaukee--not giving up Middleton. Bledsoe/Lopez works money wise, but why would MIL break up this team?
Philly--unless it was Embiid for Gobert, it doesn't fit.
Toronto--they have so many big cap holds that they'd have to renounce Ibaka, VanVleet, and Gasol to get underneath the cap. No tradeable salaries unless you include Siakim.
Miami--they have Adebayo much cheaper.
Indiana--they have Sabonis and Turner so they could trade one of those back with filler and picks.
Brooklyn--KD and Kyrie's buddy DAJ will be the starter.
Denver-they have Jokic.
GS-Would they trade Draymond and filler? To me, no. Plus they will have the #1 pick and the opportunity to draft James Wiseman or Anthony Edwards.
Houston--they'd have to give up both Eric Gordon and Robert Covington to match salary. Not sure Gordon meshes well with Mitchell.
LAC--to match salary they'd have to do PatBev, McGruder, and either Zubac or Green. Not sure Clippers would do this.
LAL--they will have AD.
Dallas--Would a deal of Kleber, Powell, and Curry interest Utah?
San Antonio--DeRozan for Gobert straight up would work salary wise. Can Aldridge and Gobert co-exist? Can DeRozan and Mitchell co-exist?

I see Indiana and San Antonio as the other logical landing spots for Gobert besides Boston unless Philly does not want Embiid anymore.
 

nighthob

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I posted this earlier in the 20-21 thread. Just imagining a crunch time lineup of Kemba, Smart, Tatum, Brown, and Gobert makes me happy. Hayward+ would be a reasonable offer. I'd much rather be in a situation to sign Gobert using Bird rights than Hayward.
The Celtics aren’t going full frontal Thunder. They aren’t going to field a team of three max guys, one 90% max guy, and then Smart and others. Acquiring Gobert requires losing one of Hayward or Brown and Marcus. That’s a thank you no for me. For that price I want prime Shaq, not just a defensive anchor.
 

jacklamabe65

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Not to highjack, but I was Donovan Mitchell's baseball coach throughout his middle school years. He had a tremendous fastball and a great off-speed pitch. His Dad, who was a hitting coach for the Mets, helped him along the way. Donovan could have easily played in the minors with a shot in the majors if everything broke his way. By the way, Donnie LOVED baseball - and still does.
 

TrapperAB

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Not to highjack, but I was Donovan Mitchell's baseball coach throughout his middle school years. He had a tremendous fastball and a great off-speed pitch. His Dad, who was a hitting coach for the Mets, helped him along the way. Donovan could have easily played in the minors with a shot in the majors if everything broke his way. By the way, Donnie LOVED baseball - and still does.
Very cool. Did you know Marek Beck, by any chance? He's mentioned having taught Mitchell during his middle or high school years. (Marek was the Head of Upper School at Renbrook, where I teach right now -- although he has since moved on.)
 

lovegtm

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The Celtics aren’t going full frontal Thunder. They aren’t going to field a team of three max guys, one 90% max guy, and then Smart and others. Acquiring Gobert requires losing one of Hayward or Brown and Marcus. That’s a thank you no for me. For that price I want prime Shaq, not just a defensive anchor.
Yeah, I tried to work through a lot of permutations, but there just isn’t anything that really works. Kemba for Gobert would be interesting if Gobert’s contract were a year longer, but it’s not. Kemba would be perfect in Utah if they didn’t have Conley to pay, but they do.

A Tatum team is going to be better served by just continually stocking up on Baynes/Lopez/Theis/Favors/Kanter/Poeltl types (to name a variety of what ends up out there) every year. They cost 3-8M a pop, the Celtics system is easy for 5s with a wide range of skills to play in, and you keep whomever sticks.

I still would like to see the Celtics turn Kemba into a better-fitting piece, but this layoff is the absolute best thing that could have happened for his career imo, so maybe they get through the contract.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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This pic is so wonderfully youth baseball, from the kid in the background, to the ump who is barely paying attention, to the ragedyy mound, to the look on Mitchell's face.
Love it! Makes me even sadder about not being at one of my son's baseball games today...
Great description. Might be a coach getting signs from the dugout but your points stand
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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As much as I love Gobert's skills, I wonder what the inside story is on him as a teammate. I have no links or concrete evidence and not even including the microphone touching incident, it feels like there is some smoke around him being a high maintenance type of player.

The true tell will be how hard the Celtics pursue him if he is made available. He is a good fit for the team though more in a luxury sense than must-have. But I can also see Ainge staying away if there is even a whiff of "malcontent" around him given the club's recent experience.

On the other hand, its also too soon to rule out the idea that, Lamabe-education/coaching aside - Mitchell himself might be difficult.
 

benhogan

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A Tatum team is going to be better served by just continually stocking up on Baynes/Lopez/Theis/Favors/Kanter/Poeltl types (to name a variety of what ends up out there) every year. They cost 3-8M a pop, the Celtics system is easy for 5s with a wide range of skills to play in, and you keep whomever sticks.

I still would like to see the Celtics turn Kemba into a better-fitting piece, but this layoff is the absolute best thing that could have happened for his career imo, so maybe they get through the contract.
100% agree with the bolded.

Danny/Brad just have to sit back and watch the Jay's marinate.
 

InstaFace

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the craziest thing in this thread is the suggestion that we need to upgrade from Kemba. He's won SO many games this year when one or both of the Jays just didn't have it that night. Not to mention that you couldn't ask for a better chemistry/glue guy or public-facing personality.
 

lovegtm

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the craziest thing in this thread is the suggestion that we need to upgrade from Kemba. He's won SO many games this year when one or both of the Jays just didn't have it that night. Not to mention that you couldn't ask for a better chemistry/glue guy or public-facing personality.
In a world where the luxury tax didn't exist, you'd be right, and it would be crazy.

It's a lot less crazy when you start thinking about how to maximize salary slots and the surplus value from Tatum's offensive improvement.

Do they "need" to trade Kemba? No. Should they absolutely be looking at options to use that slot better if something comes up? Yes.
 

benhogan

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the craziest thing in this thread is the suggestion that we need to upgrade from Kemba. He's won SO many games this year when one or both of the Jays just didn't have it that night. Not to mention that you couldn't ask for a better chemistry/glue guy or public-facing personality.
Agreed, a healthy Kemba is a good fit for all the reasons you listed. Although age, health and team construction should be considered

The craziest thing I read here was the suggestion that Jaylen Brown would have to be dangled for a max center on a 1yr or even 2yr deal.

Gobert isn't worth the 2nd package either (Smart, Hayward, Theis, MEM 1 and multiple other 1sts for Gobert) plus eating Conley's salary

Adding salary while the Salary Cap will be dropping is nuts, plus the market for good/decent centers will be light.
 

lovegtm

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Agreed, a healthy Kemba is a good fit for all the reasons you listed. Although age, health and team construction should be considered

The craziest thing I read here was the suggestion that Jaylen Brown would have to be dangled for a max center on a 1yr or even 2yr deal.

Gobert isn't worth the 2nd package either (Smart, Hayward, Theis, MEM 1 and multiple other 1sts for Gobert) plus eating Conley's salary

Adding salary while the Salary Cap will be dropping is nuts, plus the market for good/decent centers will be light.
Not to mention the fact that after another year of lifting, Jaylen Brown will probably be able to guard most NBA centers, physically speaking (obv the banging is another matter).

Tatum and Brown are basically a team-building cheat code in terms of how easy they are to fit stuff around. If either Grant or Romeo develops into a starter-level player, things get even more ridiculous in that regard.