Misremembered Greatness on the Red Sox

semsox

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My first thought when opening this thread was Frank Castillo, who I remembered as a Yankee Killer. But, unlikely as that sounds, turns out it was accurate. He went 16-24 over 300 IP with a 4.68 ERA in 01/02, but managed 3-1 with a 1.91 ERA over 37.1 IP in that same time frame against the Yankees.
 

dirtynine

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I remember when Romine walked the Sox off against the Royals one July Saturday during the 88 Morgan Magic run. I remember thinking, “we have Greenwell, Burks and Benzinger. Where is Romine going to play?”
Shared memory, down to the sentiment.

Benzinger himself is a good example. Carlos Quintana. Spike Owen. Scott Cooper (all star). I think Tom Bolton was a Donruss Rated Rookie, as was Quintana. That was the mark, to me: if you achieved RR status you were forevermore somebody who “should” be good.

ed - Tom, not Tim
 
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zenax

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How about Ted Cox (3B,LF) drafted number 17 in the 1st round of the 1973 draft and got base hits in his first 6 ABs after the Sox called him up in Fall of 1977, then traded the following March, Hit had a slash line in his 13 games with Boston of .362/.393/.500/.893. But Eckersley was one of the players thee got for him.
 

brs3

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Ha, that's how I felt about Jody Reed.

I have not turned into an MLB decision maker.
Jody Reed was also a favorite of mine. I will still wear #3 in his honor. His career choices playing a part in Pedro eventually landing in Boston only reinforces my feeling that Jody Reed should be in the Red Sox Hall of Fame
 

Van Everyman

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The exact opposite of this was Jose Canseco. I remembered him as being useless with the Red Sox, but he was still a great hitter when he was on the field. He had OPS+ marks of 137 and 146 in 1995 and 1996.
Along the same lines, we all remember the Bagwell trade as a disaster but a few years ango I checked his numbers during our playoff run that year and Larry Anderson was quite good for us down the stretch that year, pitching 22 innings in 15 appearances, striking out 29 percent of hitters with a walk rate of only 3.5 percent, and a 1.23 ERA. Tho he stank in the playoffs so maybe I am misremembering his greatness?

Edit: or as @lexrageorge said
 
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Mooch

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My memories of Jose Offerman before he went completely insane was that he had a great first season for the Sox before it all fell apart. Looking back, I was kind of surprised to see that he only posted a 108 OPS+ in 1999 and was a horribly inefficient base stealer.
 

lexrageorge

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Along the same lines, we all remember the Bageell trade as a disaster but Larry Anderson was quite good for us down the stretch that year.
But he was useless in the playoffs, and then left as a free agent.

Around the same time, I recalled Rob Murphy as being a decent bullpen arm. I was half right: he was good in 1989, but was awful in 1990 (0-6, 4.93 FIP, 65 ERA+).
 

tims4wins

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My memories of Jose Offerman before he went completely insane was that he had a great first season for the Sox before it all fell apart. Looking back, I was kind of surprised to see that he only posted a 108 OPS+ in 1999 and was a horribly inefficient base stealer.
He had a ridiculously awesome first month (368 / 453 / 590 / 1.043 as of May 8), then slumped for about 3 months into early August (232 / 331 / 341 / 672) before finishing strong (337 / 435 / 477 / 912). Good season though.
 

Mooch

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He had a ridiculously awesome first month (368 / 453 / 590 / 1.043 as of May 8), then slumped for about 3 months into early August (232 / 331 / 341 / 672) before finishing strong (337 / 435 / 477 / 912). Good season though.
Right, good but not great. I think my memory of that year is somewhat clouded by his excellent postseason.
 

RG33

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Shared memory, down to the sentiment.

Benzinger himself is a good example. Carlos Quintana. Spike Owen. Scott Cooper (all star). I think Tom Bolton was a Donruss Rated Rookie, as was Quintana. That was the mark, to me: if you achieved RR status you were forevermore somebody who “should” be good.

ed - Tom, not Tim
I have about 20,000 cards still in my garage, with about 6 thick binders with them all laid out, and there are SO MANY “rated rookies” that I saved because they were supposed to be good. I have so many Kevin Seitzers and Gregg Jeffries because they were going to obviously break Pete Rose’s record.
 
Feb 9, 2024
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Kevin Morton. I remember him being a great young lefty starting pitcher who had a solid 1/2 year with the Sox. Really, he had 1 good game.
Also, one of my favorites was Tim Naehring. I wouldn't say he was bad, but he wasn't as great as I remember. However, I stand by my feelings that if he could have stayed healthy, Naehring would have been a very good hitting middle infielder.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I remember Nate Minchey pitching a complete game for a win in his rookie year here and thought maybe we really had something in him.

He did indeed to go on to a very good, long career....in Japan.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Kevin Morton. I remember him being a great young lefty starting pitcher who had a solid 1/2 year with the Sox. Really, he had 1 good game.
Also, one of my favorites was Tim Naehring. I wouldn't say he was bad, but he wasn't as great as I remember. However, I stand by my feelings that if he could have stayed healthy, Naehring would have been a very good hitting middle infielder.
One great game, with the only exception being that moon shot Cecil Fielder hit off him, right? Wasn’t Morton relatively local too, from CT?
 

Tony Pena's Gas Cloud

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Kevin Morton. I remember him being a great young lefty starting pitcher who had a solid 1/2 year with the Sox. Really, he had 1 good game.
Also, one of my favorites was Tim Naehring. I wouldn't say he was bad, but he wasn't as great as I remember. However, I stand by my feelings that if he could have stayed healthy, Naehring would have been a very good hitting middle infielder.
I always wondered why Morton never got another shot in Boston. As a 22 year old rookie lefty in '91, he had fifteen starts - seven good to decent, five meh, and three horrific. A second look now shows that he followed that with a 2-12 campaign in Pawtucket. But on the '92 team that was clearly going nowhere, wouldn't they be better served giving starts to youngsters rather than the ancient Danny Darwin and Joe Hesketh? Those Hobson teams were mismanaged in every possible way.
 

EP Sox Fan

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Wade Boggs was my favorite Red Sox player growing up. (I tried to emulate his batting stance in Little League to little effect). When he left and went to the MFY, I was pretty devastated. Then the Sox put Tim Naehring at the hot corner and I remember being really excited about him. I was puzzled when he fizzled out. Turns out he wasn't nearly as good as I thought.

Mike Greenwell.
 

BuellMiller

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I remember Nate Minchey pitching a complete game for a win in his rookie year here and thought maybe we really had something in him.

He did indeed to go on to a very good, long career....in Japan.
He was also among the 3 or 4 young-ish prospects who each got 5-8 bad starts in 1994 before the strike, along with Gar Finnvold, Chris Nabholz, and Tim Van Egmond. (I'm guessing Gammons probably hyped them up like a new generation of young pitchers in the spirit of Clemens/Hurst/Boyd if not better).
Then Vaughn Eshelman broke onto the scene in early 1995, I remember listening to that game against the Yankees on a radio with poor reception, and thinking that Van Egmond was getting another shot and making the most of it.
 

changer591

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So many of these names and quips are sending me back to my teens and remembering all that I had was WTIC 1080 in Connecticut to follow the Red Sox since I didn't get them on TV at all. If I recall correctly, the only baseball I could get over antenna were Mets games on channel 20?
And the Jose Offerman comment about going back on popups was gold.
 

lexrageorge

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Gammons wrote a weekly entry tracking Kevin Morton's progress once Morton was promoted to AA New Britain. What is surprising is that even his minor league stats in as levels as low as AA were never the same after his demotion at the conclusion of spring training in 1992.
 

Hank Scorpio

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Wade Boggs was my favorite Red Sox player growing up. (I tried to emulate his batting stance in Little League to little effect). When he left and went to the MFY, I was pretty devastated. Then the Sox put Tim Naehring at the hot corner and I remember being really excited about him. I was puzzled when he fizzled out. Turns out he wasn't nearly as good as I thought.

Mike Greenwell.
When I was young, I remember asking my cousin and uncle what made a good baseball player. Like how could I tell if they were good by looking at the back of their baseball card.

They both told me “if their batting average is over .280, they’re good… if it’s .290, they are very good, if it’s over .300, they’re an all star…”

I asked if anyone ever hit .400, and they said Ted Williams, but no one ever hits .400… if someone hit .400, they’d be the best hitter ever.

Fast forward to 10 year old me finding Scott Cooper’s 1992 baseball card which showed his .457 batting average the year before.

Scott Cooper, in my mind, was going to be a fucking legend.
 

TapeAndPosts

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My memories of Jose Offerman before he went completely insane was that he had a great first season for the Sox before it all fell apart. Looking back, I was kind of surprised to see that he only posted a 108 OPS+ in 1999 and was a horribly inefficient base stealer.
He's being dinged by OPS+ quite a bit for the 1999 offensive environment... a .391 OBP feels pretty good (ended up better than Mo Vaughn's!), and the .435 SLG doesn't seem bad for a middle infielder. But an .826 OPS was 85th in baseball in 1999... in 2024 it would have been tied for 25th.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Shared memory, down to the sentiment.

Benzinger himself is a good example. Carlos Quintana. Spike Owen. Scott Cooper (all star). I think Tom Bolton was a Donruss Rated Rookie, as was Quintana. That was the mark, to me: if you achieved RR status you were forevermore somebody who “should” be good.

ed - Tom, not Tim
Benzinger is famous in our house because he really LOOKED like a "Todd". I even showed my wife his baseball card, just his head, and asked her to guess his name and she guess Todd

89537
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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He's being dinged by OPS+ quite a bit for the 1999 offensive environment... a .391 OBP feels pretty good (ended up better than Mo Vaughn's!), and the .435 SLG doesn't seem bad for a middle infielder. But an .826 OPS was 85th in baseball in 1999... in 2024 it would have been tied for 25th.
Offerman was an All-Star in his first year as a Sox, no?
 

TapeAndPosts

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Offerman was an All-Star in his first year as a Sox, no?
He was. Besides having gotten off to a very good start with the Sox in 1999, he was coming off a genuinely great 1998 season with the Royals, which would turn out to be his career year (119 OPS+, 5.3 bWAR, 13 triples). Duke gambled that at age 30 he'd have a few more quality years left, but unfortunately he just had the one.
 

reggiecleveland

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I thought I was really smart becasue I read Bill James. I thought Scott Hatteberg was a really great hitter, but checking the stats he was ops+ of 102, 107, 100, 100 with the Sox before his injury, a perfectly average hitter.
 

Sox Pride

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There was this DH type player who tore up Pawtucket in the mid to late 80's. Put up a 1000+ OPS in half a season.
He got called up to the Sox - put up 900+ OPS - and I thought he was going to be a cornerstone piece going forward.
But he after that, he really turned into a AAAA type player. Sad

Can't remember his name though.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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There was this DH type player who tore up Pawtucket in the mid to late 80's. Put up a 1000+ OPS in half a season.
He got called up to the Sox - put up 900+ OPS - and I thought he was going to be a cornerstone piece going forward.
But he after that, he really turned into a AAAA type player. Sad

Can't remember his name though.
Oh you.
 

Humphrey

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He was also among the 3 or 4 young-ish prospects who each got 5-8 bad starts in 1994 before the strike, along with Gar Finnvold, Chris Nabholz, and Tim Van Egmond. (I'm guessing Gammons probably hyped them up like a new generation of young pitchers in the spirit of Clemens/Hurst/Boyd if not better).
Then Vaughn Eshelman broke onto the scene in early 1995, I remember listening to that game against the Yankees on a radio with poor reception, and thinking that Van Egmond was getting another shot and making the most of it.
I might be a little off on this, but what I remember about the week(s) before the strike was Duquette emptying out Pawtucket of anyone that had a major league contract because if they were in the majors they didn't have to get paid once the strike started.

One horrible (as in, he absolutely sucked for the Red Sox) example was the late (yeah, unfortunately he's dead, died at age 54) Todd Frowirth. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/frohwto01.shtml
 

tbrown_01923

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He's being dinged by OPS+ quite a bit for the 1999 offensive environment... a .391 OBP feels pretty good (ended up better than Mo Vaughn's!), and the .435 SLG doesn't seem bad for a middle infielder. But an .826 OPS was 85th in baseball in 1999... in 2024 it would have been tied for 25th.
Wasn't there a "Offerman will replace mo's obp" hot take (on that duquette statement) in the media at the time???
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Wasn’t really a hot take, it was Duquette’s argument. Offerman did have a 2.8 bWAR his first year with the Sox, which was lower than what Mo contributed his last year with the Sox (5.6), but higher than what he did with the Angels (1.8). In fact, Vaughn’s post Sox career provided less bWAR than Offerman’s first year with the Sox.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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Wasn’t really a hot take, it was Duquette’s argument. Offerman did have a 2.8 bWAR his first year with the Sox, which was lower than what Mo contributed his last year with the Sox (5.6), but higher than what he did with the Angels (1.8). In fact, Vaughn’s post Sox career provided less bWAR than Offerman’s first year with the Sox.
As simplistic as OBP is by today’s advanced metrics, it was pretty bold to hear Duquette cite something other than the classic counting stats when addressing this personnel move. I don’t personally recall hearing a GM cite even that before in the press. Duke had his flaws, but he was ahead of his time in a lot of ways by consulting with Mike Gimbel (as well as scouting for players in Asia more aggressively than most). I recall Duke took a lot of heat from old time baseball folks when it came out he was consulting with a statistician ever since his time in Montreal.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I think a lot of it was his personality; he didn’t come across as well as an Epstein, and could be kind of blunt and abrasive, which was more important back then, in terms of dealing with other GM’s and certainly the media.
 

TapeAndPosts

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Duquette was right not to re-sign Mo (though it made me sad at the time), right to say even if he wasn't replaced one-for-one we could replace the parts of his offensive production, and right to be aware of OBP as one of the key parts of offensive production. In that 1999 environment he got a lot of media and fan push-back, and it made me really root for the guy he brought in.

Unfortunately, Duke just wasn't right in his choice of Offerman, who was coming off a genuinely great year but was 30 and only had one decent year left. But I did really pull for the guy. I always find myself drawn to rooting for the guys I feel like the media and fandom gave a raw deal.
 

dynomite

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Juan Pena appear in an SI baseball preview as the Sox prospect to make an impact with team (think they selected one for each). This felt like the infancy of managing workload, especially for young pitchers. I knew a little about it, but not a ton. He proceeded to get injured at some point that year (maybe even in ST). Around that same time I purchased a bunch of baseball books and one of them pointed out Pena average 7 1/3rd innings per start as a 19 year-old in A ball (187.2 innings in 26 starts). That always stuck with me.
We saw one of Peña’s two starts in a sports bar in Providenciales, and were SO high on his potential. And then he disappeared.
I remembered Wilton Veras having a good first year before proving dissapointing, but he appears to have always been bad.

It's not really the same, but the Juan Pena what could have been has haunted me. Even without the injuries, he probably wouldn't have been much based on his minor league work.
Juan Pena is always my answer to a slightly different question, which is: who were you absolutely sure that, without injury, would have been a star.

You can't tell me anything when it comes to Pena. A wideout slider that made RHH look foolish. Dotting the zone upstairs and down. Changing speeds. Looking totally in control. If he'd stayed healthy, Pedro and Pena would have been double aces for the Sox. 2 starts, 13 IP, 15/3 K/BB ratio. I have a memory of Remy yelping "We may have found ouah new Pey-dro Mahtinez!"

Thanks to the magic of YouTube, his first start against the Angels -- called beautifully by Remy and Sean McD -- is available in its entirety. I watch it through rose colored glasses and refuse to see anything but greatness... even though his fastball isn't quite the dominant pitch I remember...

At ~41:10 look at him strike out Andy Sheets (remember him!?) to end the 3rd having given up 1 run and struck out 5 so far... and he grimaces and shakes his head as he's running to the dugout. Like Pedro or vintage Beckett or Sale. Dude was ANGRY that he had given up 1 ER and was mostly dominating a major league lineup. Then remember it was his FIRST MLB START at age, what, 21?!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84e8v2oUMp8&ab_channel=BrianFleming
 
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John Marzano Olympic Hero

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As simplistic as OBP is by today’s advanced metrics, it was pretty bold to hear Duquette cite something other than the classic counting stats when addressing this personnel move. I don’t personally recall hearing a GM cite even that before in the press. Duke had his flaws, but he was ahead of his time in a lot of ways by consulting with Mike Gimbel (as well as scouting for players in Asia more aggressively than most). I recall Duke took a lot of heat from old time baseball folks when it came out he was consulting with a statistician ever since his time in Montreal.
I recall that Gimbel was a water meter reader and the press thought that it was HILARIOUS that Duquette would talk to him. Shaughnessy and Glenn Ordway and the like used to kill him for that.

I remember thinking, “who gives a fuck what guy does with his life, if he has good information he has good information.”

The Boston media in the 90s were a collection of assholes. Just the absolute most pompous people.
 

jose melendez

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I recall that Gimbel was a water meter reader and the press thought that it was HILARIOUS that Duquette would talk to him. Shaughnessy and Glenn Ordway and the like used to kill him for that.

I remember thinking, “who gives a fuck what guy does with his life, if he has good information he has good information.”

The Boston media in the 90s were a collection of assholes. Just the absolute most pompous people.
Gimbel was also a a werido. Wasn't there keeping alligators or something? None of it invalidates his statistical work, of course. But it's not like we haven't used weirdness to knock a different Sox statistician, a sword-wielding one.