Milwaukee Bucks boycott Game 5 vs Orlando

kelpapa

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According to Shams, it seems like the Magic originally wanted to play and were on the floor at some point but returned to their locker rooms when the Bucks didn't come out. I'm sure there has to be some amount of division among the players as to how to proceed and I wonder if it will cause conflict within the bubble. I especially wonder about younger, less established players who are hurt the most by not playing.
How are younger and less established players hurt by this?
 

PC Drunken Friar

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For example, defunding the police - I don't know enough about it to know if it's the right answer or not, in many of the flavors it comes in. And I don't think anyone knows that it is the answer, yet it's often presented as if it's this tested, perfect solution and if you disagree with it, then you disagree with the entire goal of the movement. But what if we do that and the results are worse? Where's the evidence that it's a better solution than what we're doing now? Of course it sounds good but it's not actually rooted in any proof. The closest thing that I've seen is Camden, NJ, but what happened was that they ended up hiring more police, but the police were private instead of a part of the existing department.

Sorry for taking much of this OT - having lived in dangerous, impoverished areas of Brooklyn in the past and seeing how my neighbors in those communities wished that there was better policing (and more of it) rather than some of the solutions being posed in the current climate impacts the way I think about it.
Please show your work where the bolded statement has been presented by anyone of real influence. Would you agree that there is a problem in this country regarding how police treat PoC? What we have done is not working. Why not have a discussion if police need military grade vehicles/weapons/technology in cities and the suburbs?

Your neighbors are right to desire better policing... because what we are doing now (and have been doing for however many years) simply isn't working!
 

Light-Tower-Power

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How are younger and less established players hurt by this?
The playoffs are an opportunity for less established players to showcase their skills in the national spotlight. Take Terry Rozier for example - young, relatively unknown guy (just ask Eric Bledsoe) that basically played himself into a $56M contract on the back of one great playoff run. Without these games those types of guys won't have that opportunity.
 

oumbi

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Seconded!

Yes, there are tens of millions of people who feel this way. And not one of them has ever been pulled over for Driving While Black. So you and they would be wrong. Whites have unseen but universally accepted privileges/advantages that BIPOC don’t. And that’s a big part of the problem.
An excellent book by Beverly Daniel Tatum to read on this exact topic, and it is updated, is titled: Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria: And Other Conversations About Race?

Here is an excerpt from it:

"“Are you saying all Whites are racist?” When asked this question, I again remember that White teacher’s response, and I am conscious that perhaps the question I am really being asked is, “Are you saying all Whites are bad people?” The answer to that question is of course not. However, all White people, intentionally or unintentionally, do benefit from racism.

A more relevant question is, “What are White people as individuals doing to interrupt racism?” For many White people, the image of a racist is a hood-wearing Klan member or a name-calling Archie Bunker figure. These images represent what might be called active racism, blatant, intentional acts of racial bigotry and discrimination.

Passive racism is more subtle and can be seen in the collusion of laughing when a racist joke is told, letting exclusionary hiring practices go unchallenged, accepting as appropriate the omissions of people of color from the curriculum, and avoiding difficult race-related issues. Because racism is so ingrained in the fabric of American institutions, it is easily self-perpetuating. 6 All that is required to maintain it is to go about business as usual."

― from "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?: And Other Conversations About Race"
 

PC Drunken Friar

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The playoffs are an opportunity for less established players to showcase their skills in the national spotlight. Take Terry Rozier for example - young, relatively unknown guy that basically played himself into a $56M contract on the back of one great playoff run. Without these games those types of guys won't have that opportunity.
And maybe they realize that if something drastic isn't done, the next Terry Rozier (perhaps his son) will be killed by the systemtic racism that this country has had since before it's inception.
 

mauf

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According to Shams, it seems like the Magic originally wanted to play and were on the floor at some point but returned to their locker rooms when the Bucks didn't come out. I'm sure there has to be some amount of division among the players as to how to proceed and I wonder if it will cause conflict within the bubble. I especially wonder about younger, less established players who are hurt the most by not playing.
If there was less than complete alignment on how to handle today, then I’m assuming there is no shared vision at all of what the long-term strategy. Not that that’s a problem — consensus-building takes time. The key takeaway is that anyone who claims to know what’s next is full of shit.


How are younger and less established players hurt by this?
It’s self-evident that players who haven’t amassed generational wealth playing basketball, and may not have a contract for next season, stand to lose more than players who are already wealthy and/or have guaranteed contracts for the next 2-3 seasons. I don’t get the impression that younger players are less committed to the cause than established veterans, but they are unquestionably risking more.
 

kelpapa

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The playoffs are an opportunity for less established players to showcase their skills in the national spotlight. Take Terry Rozier for example - young, relatively unknown guy (just ask Eric Bledsoe) that basically played himself into a $56M contract on the back of one great playoff run. Without these games those types of guys won't have that opportunity.
And how does not playing tonight change any of that?
 

Light-Tower-Power

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And how does not playing tonight change any of that?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to the scenario that the majority of players decide to leave the bubble and the playoffs are canceled. I wonder how the younger and less established guys feel about proceeding in that way because it certainly seems to be on the table.
 

ManicCompression

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Please show your work where the bolded statement has been presented by anyone of real influence. Would you agree that there is a problem in this country regarding how police treat PoC? What we have done is not working. Why not have a discussion if police need military grade vehicles/weapons/technology in cities and the suburbs?

Your neighbors are right to desire better policing... because what we are doing now (and have been doing for however many years) simply isn't working!
There's a petition on the BLM website to defund the police. Being that BLM is prominently featured in the NBA right now as an organization, it's fair to wonder whether this is the change the players are trying to drive by boycotting.

And yes, my neighbors should get better policing - but what if that means getting MORE funds to the police for better training, more officers, higher paying jobs in order to attract higher-caliber officers, etc? That's my point - it's not cut and dry and it shouldn't be presumed that I'm not empathetic simply because I think we should be thoughtful about the changes we make.
 

lexrageorge

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The NBA players made a strong statement today. However, put me down as the players agreeing to cancel the season will not have the desired affect. People can go on about their business without sports just as easily.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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So you view a basketball player who has made millions of dollars in his career, has millions of fans he can reach out to and a microphone to distribute his thoughts as being less powerful than someone mired in poverty just because of the color of his skin? I'm sorry that I don't agree, but that doesn't mean that I'm not horrified by police violence and inequality.
....
Where has that got Colin Kaepernick? He spoke out silently and peacefully and lost his career.

Money obviously has its privileges. But if you think wealthy blacks and wealthy whites are equal, well, I don’t know what to tell you. There are literally no statistics that back that up. To the contrary, Blacks driving a Mercedes are WAAAAAYY more likely to get pulled over than whites. And it’s because they’re driving the Mercedes.
 

scottyno

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How are younger and less established players hurt by this?
If it's just tonight they aren't. If they choose the nuclear option and cancel the season the young players potentially lose tens of millions down the line
 

Light-Tower-Power

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And maybe they realize that if something drastic isn't done, the next Terry Rozier (perhaps his son) will be killed by the systemtic racism that this country has had since before it's inception.
I'm sure they do, but I'm sure they're concerned about their careers at the same time, and rightfully so. This has to be especially challenging for the Terry Roziers and the Lu Dorts of the NBA.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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There's a petition on the BLM website to defund the police. Being that BLM is prominently featured in the NBA right now as an organization, it's fair to wonder whether this is the change the players are trying to drive by boycotting.

And yes, my neighbors should get better policing - but what if that means getting MORE funds to the police for better training, more officers, higher paying jobs in order to attract higher-caliber officers, etc? That's my point - it's not cut and dry and it shouldn't be presumed that I'm not empathetic simply because I think we should be thoughtful about the changes we make.
Sweet. Stop with the military grade weapons. Hire professionals to deal with the domestic disputes, suicidal people, the mentally ill, etc. Let police do their jobs and build their reputation back to a trusted level. Use the weapon money to fund community outreach programs, children's programs, child care yada yada yada.

There may be more money to go around and hire good police. But saying that the police need MORE funding is a bit ridiculous.
 

ManicCompression

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Where has that got Colin Kaepernick? He spoke out silently and peacefully and lost his career.

Money obviously has its privileges. But if you think wealthy blacks and wealthy whites are equal, well, I don’t know what to tell you. There are literally no statistics that back that up. To the contrary, Blacks driving a Mercedes are WAAAAAYY more likely to get pulled over than whites. And it’s because they’re driving the Mercedes.
Dude - where did I ever say that? I specifically said impoverished like multiple times. There are lots and lots of non-wealthy people who are not as powerful as wealthy people and they come in all skin colors and genders. It's a pretty straightforward statement.

Sweet. Stop with the military grade weapons. Hire professionals to deal with the domestic disputes, suicidal people, the mentally ill, etc. Let police do their jobs and build their reputation back to a trusted level. Use the weapon money to fund community outreach programs, children's programs, child care yada yada yada.

There may be more money to go around and hire good police. But saying that the police need MORE funding is a bit ridiculous.
I agree with pretty much everything you say in your first graph. We can leave it at that.
 

scotian1

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Two other MLB games have been cancelled; Seattle vs San Diego and SF vs the Dodgers. Also how can a white guy with a rifle mow down several protesters last night and not be arrested?
 
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DannyDarwinism

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So you view a basketball player who has made millions of dollars in his career, has millions of fans he can reach out to and a microphone to distribute his thoughts as being less powerful than someone mired in poverty just because of the color of his skin? I'm sorry that I don't agree, but that doesn't mean that I'm not horrified by police violence and inequality.



For example, defunding the police - I don't know enough about it to know if it's the right answer or not, in many of the flavors it comes in. And I don't think anyone knows that it is the answer, yet it's often presented as if it's this tested, perfect solution and if you disagree with it, then you disagree with the entire goal of the movement. But what if we do that and the results are worse? Where's the evidence that it's a better solution than what we're doing now? Of course it sounds good but it's not actually rooted in any proof. The closest thing that I've seen is Camden, NJ, but what happened was that they ended up hiring more police, but the police were private instead of a part of the existing department.

Sorry for taking much of this OT - having lived in dangerous, impoverished areas of Brooklyn in the past and seeing how my neighbors in those communities wished that there was better policing (and more of it) rather than some of the solutions being posed in the current climate impacts the way I think about it.
You initially took offense to someone saying, in essence, “it’s not my place to criticize how these predominantly black men protest police brutality against black people”, because poor white people exists, and their thoughts have feelings too, and now you’re really citing the year you spent in a studio in Bushwick as your bona fides for your All Lives Matters shtick?

Whether a rich black man has more or less power than a poor white one is a straw man that you, for some reason, introduced in response to a pretty simple observation that perhaps we can give black people some latitude as they try to navigate how to meaningfully protest police violence against black people. What are you even doing here?
 

Soxy

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Two other MLB games have been cancelled; Seattle vs San Diego and SF vs the Dodgers.
Also, all of the WNBA games, 5 of 6 MLS games, and Naomi Osaka said she is sitting out her semifinals tennis match that was scheduled tomorrow in the Western & Southern Open.

I sense a trend.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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FYI, Woj is pretty much live-tweeting the players and coaches meeting happening now. Someone is feeding him a bunch of information. Sounds like we'll know the fate of the season by the end of the night.
 

BaseballJones

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Also, Defund the Police does not mean Disband the Police. Unfortunately, Americans live slogans and Divest the Monies Spent on the Police doesn't have the right wing to it
I agree with you, except that for some people who apparently have enough pull to get their views put in the New York Times, defund the police means precisely disband, or abolish, the police.


So, if the goal is understanding, when someone says "defund the police", it's helpful to ask what, exactly, does that person mean by that phrase. Because quite clearly for at least some fairly influential people in that movement, defund the police means abolishing it.

The term "defund the police" is problematic for another, related, reason: whenever else the term is used, it usually means "abolish". When policians talk about defunding planned parenthood, they generally mean take all federal funding away. And it is understood that if federal funding goes away, it cannot sustain itself, and thus will disappear. So defunding here has the goal of eliminating. Same idea if we are talking about defunding the department of education. When that is proposed, it usually means abolish. So the term itself almost invites confusion, which is why it's best to ask what a person means when they use it. Similarly, it's best if someone uses it to also give a little clarity as to what they mean.

If, of course, the goal is understanding, or to be understood. If the goal is just to shout or react to slogans without caring whether there's real understanding, well, that's different.
 

BaseballJones

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What's happening with these boycotts is amazing. I wish the Bruins had boycotted their game. Oh, looks like they kind of have.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I agree with you, except that for some people who apparently have enough pull to get their views put in the New York Times, defund the police means precisely disband, or abolish, the police.


So, if the goal is understanding, when someone says "defund the police", it's helpful to ask what, exactly, does that person mean by that phrase. Because quite clearly for at least some fairly influential people in that movement, defund the police means abolishing it.

The term "defund the police" is problematic for another, related, reason: whenever else the term is used, it usually means "abolish". When policians talk about defunding planned parenthood, they generally mean take all federal funding away. And it is understood that if federal funding goes away, it cannot sustain itself, and thus will disappear. So defunding here has the goal of eliminating. Same idea if we are talking about defunding the department of education. When that is proposed, it usually means abolish. So the term itself almost invites confusion, which is why it's best to ask what a person means when they use it. Similarly, it's best if someone uses it to also give a little clarity as to what they mean.

If, of course, the goal is understanding, or to be understood. If the goal is just to shout or react to slogans without caring whether there's real understanding, well, that's different.
Is she the official voice of BLM? That is what i was commenting on. BLM's official position is in the video I posted. What is unreasonable about that?
 

Leskanic's Thread

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Kenny Smith walked off the set tonight.
View: https://streamable.com/kxyo1z
Already been said, but: a powerful moment. I wonder what Shaq and Charles said afterwards.

Two other MLB games have been cancelled; Seattle vs San Diego and SF vs the Dodgers. Also how can a white guy with a rifle mow down several protesters last night and not be arrested?
We can check with the local sheriff earlier today:

View: https://twitter.com/TomNamako/status/1298699146065584136


Or we can check with him a couple years ago:

View: https://twitter.com/owillis/status/1298563557043445762
 

BaseballJones

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Is she the official voice of BLM? That is what i was commenting on. BLM's official position is in the video I posted. What is unreasonable about that?
I didn't say anything about anything being "unreasonable". I was just talking about how the term is used by different people differently. You didn't make it clear (at least to me) that you were ONLY talking about the official Black Lives Matter organization's formal position on this. There are, obviously, tons of prominent people in the #BLM movement who don't speak for the actual organization that use the term "defund the police".

Unless you're arguing that the #BLM movement is the same exact thing as the official BLM organization. I don't *think* you're arguing that, so you can see why clarity is needed.
 

ifmanis5

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Not sure what the owners can actually do here to appease but pretty crazy that NBA players want to take more action than Congress.
 

ManicCompression

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You initially took offense to someone saying, in essence, “it’s not my place to criticize how these predominantly black men protest police brutality against black people”, because poor white people exists, and their thoughts have feelings too, and now you’re really citing the year you spent in a studio in Bushwick as your bona fides for your All Lives Matters shtick?

Whether a rich black man has more or less power than a poor white one is a straw man that you, for some reason, introduced in response to a pretty simple observation that perhaps we can give black people some latitude as they try to navigate how to meaningfully protest police violence against black people. What are you even doing here?
- I didn't take offense with anything. I disagreed with the concept that identity had a relationship with opinion
- My point about poor white people was solely to say that power dynamics exist in a variety of areas beyond race
- I never said All Lives Matter... nor was I looking for bona fides
- I treated everyone with respect in this conversation. Why can't you do the same for me?

I probably vote with you on everything. I agree with you on most issues I'd imagine. My point was that we need to improve policing in this country and ideas for that are going to come from all sorts of people, some black, some white, some asian. Maybe some of those smart ideas will be antithetical to popular belief. I think it's better to open up that conversation, particularly because it impacts more than just one segment of people, and not be reactive.

The way we talk about this stuff sucks. It's the worst way to have this tremendously important conversation.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I didn't say anything about anything being "unreasonable". I was just talking about how the term is used by different people differently. You didn't make it clear (at least to me) that you were ONLY talking about the official Black Lives Matter organization's formal position on this. There are, obviously, tons of prominent people in the #BLM movement who don't speak for the actual organization that use the term "defund the police".

Unless you're arguing that the #BLM movement is the same exact thing as the official BLM organization. I don't *think* you're arguing that, so you can see why clarity is needed.
I was responding to ManicCompression saying that the BLM website/organization has a petition asking people to sign to Defund the Police. He was suggesting that this is the attitude that the NBA is co-opting and it may be the wrong stance. And I doubt that he watched the video before he posted those thoughts.
 

BaseballJones

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Not sure what the owners can actually do here to appease but pretty crazy that NBA players want to take more action than Congress.
They must think the owners can use their finances and influence to move the needle on this issue. If they think that the owners can magically change this, then obviously they're not reasonable people. So I suspect the former.
 

BroodsSexton

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What can the owners and/or the league do here? Seriously, I don't know.
The message from players: Try. Make us believe you’re putting the same effort into this as your precious basketball teams and businesses. Our lives are at stake, and, you know, they matter. Pretty loud and clear, to me.
 

BaseballJones

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I was responding to ManicCompression saying that the BLM website/organization has a petition asking people to sign to Defund the Police. He was suggesting that this is the attitude that the NBA is co-opting and it may be the wrong stance. And I doubt that he watched the video before he posted those thoughts.
Ok, so you were ONLY talking about the BLM organization's official position, not the general use of the term that a huge variety of people within the BLM movement employ with various meanings?

Ok, fair enough.

I'll just reiterate that the term is a poor one, because (a) it means many different things by many different people within the larger movement, and (b) it *usually* implies abolishing whatever it is you want to defund.

But hey, whatever.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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The message from players: Try. Make us believe you’re putting the same effort into this as your precious basketball teams and businesses. Our lives are at stake, and, you know, they matter.
I agree. I'm just legitimately unsure how the owners can show they're trying in a way that will appease the players within the next day or so. Perhaps specific demands will come out of the meeting and we don't know it yet.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I agree. I'm just legitimately unsure how the owners can show they're trying in a way that will appease the players within the next day or so. Perhaps specific demands will come out of the meeting and we don't know it yet.
The collective wealth, power, and connections of these people are astronomical. There is plenty they can do if they care to try. If LeBron can spin up an organization to help pay outstanding fees for Florida ex-felons and another to help staff polling locations while also being the best basketball player on the planet, I’m sure they can put something together.
 

BroodsSexton

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I agree. I'm just legitimately unsure how the owners can show they're trying in a way that will appease the players within the next day or so. Perhaps specific demands will come out of the meeting and we don't know it yet.
See, I would think that if there were some external universal condition — not directly related to basketball operations — that threatened to shut down the season, the owners could come up with a plan of action to address it in meaningful fashion in aid of preserving basketball. Try. Let’s see what Mr. Cuban can come up with.

And “appeasement” is an interesting choice of words.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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And “appeasement” is an interesting choice of words.
Well, at its core as far as the NBA owners are concerned, it's a labor dispute now and it seems like they're going to have to make some kind of concessions to the players if the players are going to finish the season. I'm using appeasement in the literal sense of the word here.
 
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BroodsSexton

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Well, at its core as far as the NBA owners are concerned, it's a labor dispute now and it seems like they're going to have to make some kind of concessions to the players if the players are going to finish the season.
Appeasement has the connotation of placating without addressing the underlying concerns.

And if you didn’t see the pandemic as a “labor problem,” then this isn’t a labor problem either. It turns out, actually, the players have a lot of unspent capital, apparently. The means of production, so to speak.

Question your assumptions. Players are throwing the system in reverse. Broke: playing as the “way out of the streets.” Woke: Addressing the streets is the way to get them to play. There’s a lot of value now, in that.
 

DannyDarwinism

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- I didn't take offense with anything. I disagreed with the concept that identity had a relationship with opinion
- My point about poor white people was solely to say that power dynamics exist in a variety of areas beyond race
- I never said All Lives Matter... nor was I looking for bona fides
- I treated everyone with respect in this conversation. Why can't you do the same for me?

I probably vote with you on everything. I agree with you on most issues I'd imagine. My point was that we need to improve policing in this country and ideas for that are going to come from all sorts of people, some black, some white, some asian. Maybe some of those smart ideas will be antithetical to popular belief. I think it's better to open up that conversation, particularly because it impacts more than just one segment of people, and not be reactive.

The way we talk about this stuff sucks. It's the worst way to have this tremendously important conversation.
But why even bring up the “power dynamic”? No one was contending that power dynamics exists outside race, and it wasn’t at issue in the post you responded to. If you want argue that “identity” (as a black person, to put a finer point on it), shouldn’t have a relationship to opinion (specifically, how to meaningfully protest police brutality against black people), then fine.I find this an inopportune place and time, but everyone has their hobby horses. Just understand that when you try to shift a conversation from “ maybe we should listen to black people about police brutality” to, “but there are poor white people too, and just because someone’s black doesn’t mean their opinion is good”, while undeniably true, is going to make people wonder what your end game is.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Question your assumptions. Players are throwing the system in reverse. Broke: playing as the “way out of the streets.” Woke: Addressing the streets is the way to get them to play. There’s a lot of value now, in that.
No, I agree with this and I'm sure the owners will come up with something. I'm cautiously optimistic as I head off to bed that this isn't the end of the season. Hopefully players' voices are heard and the league and owners make an effort.
 

BaseballJones

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But why even bring up the “power dynamic”? No one was contending that power dynamics exists outside race, and it wasn’t at issue in the post you responded to. If you want argue that “identity” (as a black person, to put a finer point on it), shouldn’t have a relationship to opinion (specifically, how to meaningfully protest police brutality against black people), then fine.I find this an inopportune place and time, but everyone has their hobby horses. Just understand that when you try to shift a conversation from “ maybe we should listen to black people about police brutality” to, “but there are poor white people too, and just because someone’s black doesn’t mean their opinion is good”, while undeniably true, is going to make people wonder what your end game is.
I know you're not talking to me, but they can always simply ask instead of just wondering or assuming, right?