Michael Sam could be the first openly gay NFL player
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This is different. If Cooper was a special teamer and Maclin doesn't get hurt do you really think he wouldn't have been cut? The guy is a homophobe in the eyes of society now, right or wrong. I think Sam was just overjoyed from being drafted and was lost in the moment. I would be shocked if he plays in the NFL again and he's certainly going to have to attend sensitivity training and release and apology.Mystic Merlin said:
While the SEC Defensive Player of the Year has been drafted highly pretty much every year, the SEC sack leader hasn't necessarily. In fact, twice in the last ten years the sack leader has gone undrafted - Auburn's Antonio Coleman in 2009 and Mississippi State's Willie Evans in 2005. Both guys were, like Sam, shorter (6'2") players who weren't impressive in the Combine drills. I suspect Sam was drafted so late for the same reason those guys were undrafted, and very little if anything to do with his sexuality.
I love that for some reason (nudge nudge) Michael Sam is
- more likely to "go Jonathan Martin" when hazed
- is causing a distraction for all his tunnel-vision professional coaches, players and front office personnel by KISSING SOMEONE IN HIS OWN HOUSE
- (and that's his fault, not their's)
- more likely to "break" in the harrowing pit of NFL job competition, as fellow players will now be able to use his past transgressions (which feature not at all in the backstories of his straight teammates) on him to "break" him
- dumb enough not to realize this was waiting for him in the National Football League and kissed his boyfriend with such great career naivete
- deserving of scornful advising from HRB, but not the Men of the National Football League who would drive nails in the coffin of a player for being gay
Bang up series of posts, HRB.
- more likely to "go Jonathan Martin" when hazed
- is causing a distraction for all his tunnel-vision professional coaches, players and front office personnel by KISSING SOMEONE IN HIS OWN HOUSE
- (and that's his fault, not their's)
- more likely to "break" in the harrowing pit of NFL job competition, as fellow players will now be able to use his past transgressions (which feature not at all in the backstories of his straight teammates) on him to "break" him
- dumb enough not to realize this was waiting for him in the National Football League and kissed his boyfriend with such great career naivete
- deserving of scornful advising from HRB, but not the Men of the National Football League who would drive nails in the coffin of a player for being gay
Bang up series of posts, HRB.
Hey I'm only trying to help the kid make it in the league that I don't feel is ready for a rookie to bring into an NFL locker room. As I also said (which you failed to include) was that it did work for Jason Collins because he already had established himself which is why the odds are heavily stacked against Sam. In a perfect world the kiss wouldn't have mattered at all......this is unchartered waters Sam is entering and I feel he made it more difficult for himself. That's my opinion and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone in how I framed it (but I'm sure I did and apologize if so).JohntheBaptist said:
No no and no! This is a marginal player we're talking about.....if his presence in that locker room is an issue it is his career that will suffer not those closedminded players and coaches. I'm talking about his career here.....these guys would be out to get him as a 7th round pick looking to take their paycheck anyway!Devizier said:
Who is there who is likely to engage in homophobic bullying because he kissed his boyfriend in his own home, who wasn't going to bully the kid anyway? I have a really hard time imagining the kind of NFL player who'll be like "I was gonna be totally cool with it, but kissing that dude was too much, man."HomeRunBaker said:
HomeRunBaker said:
No you arent. Look at the post this comment is on and understand that you have painted a picture that Michael Sam is either a) Weaker because he is a homosexual or b) is going to get hazed harder because of his homosexuality. What makes you think Sam hasnt been through that already in college? Its not like a college football locker room is the bastion of tolerance and acceptance.
Presumably they'd be out to get him as a 7th round pick looking to take their paycheck gay or straight? You're worried that he's going to hear things he doesn't want to hear? Probably, but in your scenario every rookie would. You're saying he should act like your classic close-minded asshole thinks he should because it might give him a scintilla of less-bad will on his arrival as a rookie? Instead of being himself and playing as hard and well as he can on the field?
Again, your advice to this kid is to find the bigoted jerk and act like he thinks you should act, just because maybe he'll take it slightly easier on you and you can have a career.
If that's your best "advice" for him, your advice kind of sucks.
Again, your advice to this kid is to find the bigoted jerk and act like he thinks you should act, just because maybe he'll take it slightly easier on you and you can have a career.
If that's your best "advice" for him, your advice kind of sucks.
None of this controls for context anyway.
Two players on the Dolphins have already shat upon themselves over this, as I understand it, and he's not even going to their team. On the flip side, does anyone not think that if he went to the Patriots, eny player who thought about tweeting about it wouldn't fist think, "Wait, is Coach B gonna beat my ass over this?"
I dunno what the Rams locker room is like, but in the right hands, a thing like this is the kind of thing that can bring a team together. I mean, don't you people watch movies?
Two players on the Dolphins have already shat upon themselves over this, as I understand it, and he's not even going to their team. On the flip side, does anyone not think that if he went to the Patriots, eny player who thought about tweeting about it wouldn't fist think, "Wait, is Coach B gonna beat my ass over this?"
I dunno what the Rams locker room is like, but in the right hands, a thing like this is the kind of thing that can bring a team together. I mean, don't you people watch movies?
Tyrone Biggums said:
I totally see where you're coming from but I disagree. I don't mean to go V&N here but the solution here is love, not hate. Jones fucked up but he should get a second chance before hanging a label around his neck. Like Riley Cooper, people need to be given a chance to soberly consider their words/actions, issue an apology and act differently in the future. I don't think Jones is a homophobe based on his poor use of twitter. I think if he follows it up with actions that demonstrate tolerance, he should play in the NFL again (whatever that means) and be forgiven.
Tim Hardaway is a great example of what you're talking about: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/dave_zirin/08/22/tim.hardaway/soxfan121 said:
And as much as I hate to admit it, so is Kobe Bryant: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21687251/kobe-bryant-tells-fan-on-twitter-that-gay-shouldnt-be-used-as-derogative
He still raped that girl so we can hate him for that. And even worse, he plays for the Lakers.Reverend said:
To be clear: IF EVEN HISTORY'S WORST MONSTER KOBE BRYANT can be made to understand that being gay doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else and that gay people should be treated with respect and slurs against them should be avoided and condemned, what does that say about people who don't eat babies for breakfast, punch grandmothers in the afternoon, and steal souls for Satan himself at night?
I have watched quite a few NBA drafts but not NFL drafts. It is very common for an NBA draftee to kiss his s/o. Is that not the case, or generally frowned upon, at the NFL draft? If so, what's the reasoning?
No one cares unless the s/o is:
a) unnatractive
b) very attractive; or
c) a dude
Then they pretend they don't care by posting about it a lot and adding 'this shouldn't be an issue' to their issue.
a) unnatractive
b) very attractive; or
c) a dude
Then they pretend they don't care by posting about it a lot and adding 'this shouldn't be an issue' to their issue.
Do we have a word for this yet? It feels like it should be some variation of "humblebrag". Maybe "humbleshame". Or "humblepreach" if we want to add some irony to it.SydneySox said:
I knew I recognized that name.
Lobbyist drafts bill to ban gays from NFL.
He was full of shit then, and is likely full of shit now.
Lobbyist drafts bill to ban gays from NFL.
He was full of shit then, and is likely full of shit now.
You guys can criticize all you want but Sam continues doing everything wrong if this is about making a football team which in fairness to him is coming into question with him signing with Oprah. Now one teammate has spoken questioning Sam's motives and that it's already become an issue among players and a distraction. And so it begins.Reverend said:
http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=10937348
HomeRunBaker said:
So now a reality show--which the NFL actually has rules to force one team to do each year, while they're on the job--makes him a distraction and, in your eyes, questionable as someone who wants to play football.
If I brought a big shiny light to an NFL locker room would it be a big issue? Would everyone wig out and start running into each other or something? These guys seem very easily distracted. And for a group of "tough guys," readily willing to put the blame for their lack of ability to focus on others.
Also, concern trolling.
The NFL forces 7th round draft picks to sign lucrative deals with Oprah?JohntheBaptist said:
Concern trolling? Lol. I pointed out he will be a distraction and within 3 days a player openly questions Sam and how the rest of the team is split about him. So I was correct by my assertion that he will be a distraction or will you be defensive about that too?
Stop being so close minded.....and "defensive trolling".....and recognize the criticism Sam is already receiving for the Oprah charade.
One unnamed player characterizes the "rest of the team" as "split about him" based on interactions we have no information about....and you're already claiming the field?
If I find an unnamed player who says 'no one gives a shit, it's all about what you bring on the field', do I get to be right?
By the way, here's the actual quote: "The player also isn't certain if teammates are truly embracing Sam's presence or just being politically correct when it comes to accepting the NFL's first openly gay player.
"Clearly I'm not sure how everyone feels, but from what I can tell so far I think it's a little bit of both, honestly," he said."
Yeah, pretty definitive statement.
If I find an unnamed player who says 'no one gives a shit, it's all about what you bring on the field', do I get to be right?
By the way, here's the actual quote: "The player also isn't certain if teammates are truly embracing Sam's presence or just being politically correct when it comes to accepting the NFL's first openly gay player.
"Clearly I'm not sure how everyone feels, but from what I can tell so far I think it's a little bit of both, honestly," he said."
Yeah, pretty definitive statement.
HomeRunBaker said:
On one hand, Sam is trying to make a football team, and he has said numerous times that he wants to be recognized as a football player and not a gay football player. To the best of my knowledge, no other rookie is having is own documentary team follow him around for OWN. In a league where little things can be the difference between making a team and unemployment, this seems like a strange route to go.
Touching on what JohntheBaptist said, yes the NFL has "Hard Knocks", but isn't it true that last year, like a dozen teams turned it down because nobody likes appearing in reality shows during training camp. Hard Knocks and whatever Sam's thing is going to be are likely different, but still, the guy hasn't put a St. Louis helmet on and he already isn't necessarily enlightening himself to his teammates.
On the other hand, Sam could feel like he owes it to a lot of people to be a role model. If Sam has this show and he makes the team and does well, it could potentially be a really big positive in the lives of a lot of people. However, couldn't he accomplish something similar while also not being such a distraction? Couldn't he just have like, a web series or something and not a TV network producing the spectacle?
HomeRunBaker said:
No, it forces entire teams to participate in a reality show while they're doing their job, which if you stopped and thought about it for a second, kind of renders complaints that a player is doing one on his own to be a "DISTRACTION!!" a bit moot.
The NFL also allows for the participant athletes to seek endorsement deals and any avenue they may desire to enhance their financial and cultural "portfolio," neither of which appears to have distracted too many league members too terribly when straight players were doing it. So, Gatorade and SNL and Nike, etc--all OK, but Oprah--"distraction."
You were absolutely not correct in your assertion that he is a distraction--you've just found him to be a distraction yourself, and I'm telling you the reasons you and the player who spoke up are fucking idiots for thinking so.
You don't get that you're doing the work for these faceless distractees, characterizing everything he does as against the culture of the NFL when it really represents a bunch of closed-minded hypocrisy you're passing off as "football knowledge."
No one has been distracted by this man's sexuality or mere presence in the league, nor by his seeking to make the most of his career while he's there. If they're claiming that's so, that is entirely their problem and not Sam or the NFL's. I think the NFL gets this, and you don't. And please--if you've got a problem with the guy and his being in the NFL, just fucking say it already and stop with these assumption-loaded "predictions."
Why didn't you highlight "but from what I can tell so far I think it's a little bit of both?"Mystic Merlin said:
Definitive? No.
Clearly indicating that he knows some are bothered? Absolutely.
If Sam wanted this to be about football he'd be studying his playbook and preparing for training camp to maybe improve on his dreadful combine numbers rather than spend his time becoming a reality tv star.
HomeRunBaker said:
It indicates about as much as you want it to, judging from your string of posts on this topic.
The fact we don't know what the reporter asked the player, and in what way, much less what the player in question actually thinks about it himself is not bolstering the report's credibility or value.
The implication I see in that quote is that some are not committing to their true heartfelt opinion on Michael Sam due to the pressures to be politically correct. In other words, without the pressure to publicly accept a gay man, they would be condemning his lifestyle.
Short of openly having sex with a woman in the locker room, I don't think anything Michael Sam does will placate those "teammates." The "outcry" (if you can even use the term for this anonymous teammate's comments) against Sam would happen regardless of what he does and I am hardly surprised HomeRunBaker is using this as another means to trumpet the "he's got another agenda" canard.
The very same article HRB linked, explicitly states
This is only a distraction if you choose to make it one.
Short of openly having sex with a woman in the locker room, I don't think anything Michael Sam does will placate those "teammates." The "outcry" (if you can even use the term for this anonymous teammate's comments) against Sam would happen regardless of what he does and I am hardly surprised HomeRunBaker is using this as another means to trumpet the "he's got another agenda" canard.
The very same article HRB linked, explicitly states
This is only a distraction if you choose to make it one.
1. A documentary is not a reality show. Two different things. It does remain to be seen what this IS, exactly, but I'll bet it less Kardashians and more 30 for 30. And it sounds like there won't be cameras at practices or in the locker room, aside from normal media availability, making this less "intrusion" and more "same shit, more cameras".
2. I wonder if the NFL is going to assign the Rams to Hard Knocks. And I really wonder, if that happens, just how pissed is Oprah that NFL Films gets inside access and a similar amount of sit-down interview time with Sam? Because the Rams on Hard Knocks really does seem like the biggest no brainer in the history of earth.
3. I think that any endorsement deals (and really, this is like a Nike contract only its an Oprah contract) will matter less to Sam's relationships with fellow Rams players than his actual effort in practices and in the locker room. Sure, some will have a preconceived idea about who he is but it'll matter much more to most of them whether he's busting his ass to make the team.
4. It is certainly a possibility that Sam doesn't make the team. I am 99.99% sure that if he doesn't, it won't be because of Oprah. Jeff Fisher is many things - mustache aficionado, rules committee toadie, former player, one of the coaches with the most seniority in the league, employer of Gregg Williams, clock mis-manager - but I don't think he's going to care about much other than "can this guy help the team win?" That is the only standard that matters.
5. The Rams will have the most "unnamed player" quotes in the history of journalism this season. At least half of them will be pure, unadulterated BS. This one seems genuine because it's so vague and indeterminate. I really don't see anything here that suggests Sam is in any more danger of being cut today than he was yesterday.
The magnitude of this media coverage is going to be unprecedented. They are going to go hog wild covering every tiny, ridiculous aspect of this story. We're gonna eventually hear from the assistant equipment manager for his Pop Warner team and everyone in between. The amount of signal (i.e. his ability to play football/make the team) is going to be overwhelmed by the noise (i.e. everything else, including unnamed player quotes).
2. I wonder if the NFL is going to assign the Rams to Hard Knocks. And I really wonder, if that happens, just how pissed is Oprah that NFL Films gets inside access and a similar amount of sit-down interview time with Sam? Because the Rams on Hard Knocks really does seem like the biggest no brainer in the history of earth.
3. I think that any endorsement deals (and really, this is like a Nike contract only its an Oprah contract) will matter less to Sam's relationships with fellow Rams players than his actual effort in practices and in the locker room. Sure, some will have a preconceived idea about who he is but it'll matter much more to most of them whether he's busting his ass to make the team.
4. It is certainly a possibility that Sam doesn't make the team. I am 99.99% sure that if he doesn't, it won't be because of Oprah. Jeff Fisher is many things - mustache aficionado, rules committee toadie, former player, one of the coaches with the most seniority in the league, employer of Gregg Williams, clock mis-manager - but I don't think he's going to care about much other than "can this guy help the team win?" That is the only standard that matters.
5. The Rams will have the most "unnamed player" quotes in the history of journalism this season. At least half of them will be pure, unadulterated BS. This one seems genuine because it's so vague and indeterminate. I really don't see anything here that suggests Sam is in any more danger of being cut today than he was yesterday.
The magnitude of this media coverage is going to be unprecedented. They are going to go hog wild covering every tiny, ridiculous aspect of this story. We're gonna eventually hear from the assistant equipment manager for his Pop Warner team and everyone in between. The amount of signal (i.e. his ability to play football/make the team) is going to be overwhelmed by the noise (i.e. everything else, including unnamed player quotes).
If the players choose to make it one, which time will tell and is what I expect, then it IS a distraction no matter how hard people pound the table screaming, "No! It's NOT a distraction the problem is with THEM!" I agree the problem would be with the players......it still makes it a distraction to the team, it's preparation and ultimately Sam's ability to make the team.bradmahn said:
I agree with this 100%. Wouldn't this be the very definition of a "distraction" to a team, coaches and players working to prepare for the regular season?soxfan121 said:
If this is the case, which we both agree, wouldn't this then play a factor in Sam's ability to make the roster as Fisher will do what is in the best interest of the team?
HomeRunBaker said:
If they're creating their own distraction -- that's on them, not Sam, so you're making an issue of the documentary is irrelevant.
I'm not sure it's the greatest idea to be filmed for a documentary (not a reality show as you repeatedly -- and sensationally -- wrote...it's exaggerations like that which imply an agenda) since I do think even downtime during a 7th rounder's first training camp is probably best spent w/out distractions. But even if not a great idea, it's certainly a minor, minor distraction for Sam and none at all for the team.
In other words: non-issue for Sam. If some Rams' players have an issue (which, again, your quote hardly affirms -- another case of exaggeration), then that's no one's problem but their own.
I love that now YOU'RE (HRB) using scare quotes for "distraction."
What you still can't get through your head is that if players/ coaches/ whatever have problems doing their jobs for the reasons you're outlining, that is their problem, not his, and in the long run if they act on that impulse, it will be more their problem than his. If he can play in the NFL and Jeff Fisher decides that's too distracting, he will find someone to play him. Period.
What you still can't get through your head is that if players/ coaches/ whatever have problems doing their jobs for the reasons you're outlining, that is their problem, not his, and in the long run if they act on that impulse, it will be more their problem than his. If he can play in the NFL and Jeff Fisher decides that's too distracting, he will find someone to play him. Period.
Yeah, but, Sam isn't helping himself by....flaunting it. He's not giving the other players any choice, they totally want to be cool with it.
HomeRunBaker said:
I'm not quite sure how the
for God's sakes man, they're professionals with cameras in their face all the time, the idea that this should be a distraction is silly.
You can refuse to engage with the drivel HRB has posted here, but also think doing a documentary with Oprah is bad for Michael Sam's football career.
There are QBs with less talent than Tim Tebow who are still playing in the NFL. The reason Tebow is out of the game is because of the media circus he engendered, amplified by the perception that he courted at least some of that attention. Unlike Tebow, Sam can't do much about the media attention. He could, however, go out of his way to do his work quietly, as most late-round picks do. Announcing the OWN documentary is a step in the other direction.
Don't get me wrong -- Sam isn't doing anything wrong. He isn't the gay Jackie Robinson, with the fate of a generation of gay athletes hinging on his success; society has come far enough that the next gay man with the requisite talent will get his chance, no matter what happens to Sam. So, he's entitled to do what's best for himself. Profiting from his 15 minutes of fame may well be Sam's best move -- heaven knows he won't be the only one who profits from it. But if making an NFL roster and going as far as his work ethic and (limited) talent will carry him are his sole objective, then doing this documentary probably is at odds with that objective.
Edit: I'd say the same about A.J. McCarron, except that he's less marginal talent-wise (he's a lock to make the 53-man roster), so he can worry less about how a minor decision like this will be perceived.
There are QBs with less talent than Tim Tebow who are still playing in the NFL. The reason Tebow is out of the game is because of the media circus he engendered, amplified by the perception that he courted at least some of that attention. Unlike Tebow, Sam can't do much about the media attention. He could, however, go out of his way to do his work quietly, as most late-round picks do. Announcing the OWN documentary is a step in the other direction.
Don't get me wrong -- Sam isn't doing anything wrong. He isn't the gay Jackie Robinson, with the fate of a generation of gay athletes hinging on his success; society has come far enough that the next gay man with the requisite talent will get his chance, no matter what happens to Sam. So, he's entitled to do what's best for himself. Profiting from his 15 minutes of fame may well be Sam's best move -- heaven knows he won't be the only one who profits from it. But if making an NFL roster and going as far as his work ethic and (limited) talent will carry him are his sole objective, then doing this documentary probably is at odds with that objective.
Edit: I'd say the same about A.J. McCarron, except that he's less marginal talent-wise (he's a lock to make the 53-man roster), so he can worry less about how a minor decision like this will be perceived.
URI said:
I will admit that I was unaware of McCarron's thing, but looking into it, it doesn't seem comparable at all to Sam. McCarron's thing is something that A) He has declared he is not really going to be involved in it, and it is Webb's thing. B) Isn't about someone making it in the NFL, its about two famous people getting married and C) From what I can find, doesn't seem to have a network behind it and may not even be broadcasted.
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