Only very stupid people think combine numbers are the sole measure of athletic ability.phragle said:
Michael Sam could be the first openly gay NFL player
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Sam had a fine season but probably wasn't even the best defensive lineman on his own team. I give the writers credit for not mindlessly giving the award to Clowney, but there were better choices than Sam for DPoY. (C.J. Mosley would have gotten my vote.)Rough Carrigan said:
Shelterdog said:
Haha ok.
You're going on ignore. Congrats, you're the first.
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I had a feeling he'd fall down boards so when the news broke I posted some of his CBS rankings http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/81766-michael-sam-could-be-the-first-openly-gay-nfl-player/page-3#entry5253564 but that was early in the scouting process. I think the attention made people watch the film, which was bad IMO, and then he failed the combine. It could have affected his stock, but I don't think it was the main reason.
phragle said:
I think you've listed the reasons he fell so far. You may disagree with someone about those reasons, but it ain't me.
I stand by my wrong statement up thread: had he not been drafted, as the reigning SEC PoY - given that award's history - it would have been bad for the NFL.
dbn said:
In the absence of data, the SEC PoY list was about to be Exhibit A in a news cycle gorging that would ultimately annoy millions. Sam going undrafted would not have been "good" in many, many ways. Now that he has been drafted, we've avoided a totally avoidable media kerfluffle and it gives Sam a shot at making a team that had one of the strongest statements of support issued when he came out.
Whether he's slow, unathletic, terrible in the 3-cone or not strong enough will determine whether he sticks in the league. Not his announcement. And that's the real point.
Someone asked Belichick about Michael Sam. His answer was... "mumble mumble Rams." "248 guys drafted mumble mumble, worrying about our guys."
You can't help but feel good for the guy.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/watch-the-amazing-espn-video-of-michael-sam-s-reaction-to-being-drafted-233535045.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/watch-the-amazing-espn-video-of-michael-sam-s-reaction-to-being-drafted-233535045.html
soxfan121 said:
Is there a big difference between him going 8th to last in the draft and not being drafted?
Sure, but the reason the rule is there is that no team wants to do it and Goodell is picking who to force to do it with the help of HBO.DrewDawg said:
The Browns fall under the new coach thing....no first year coach would want that intrusion.DrewDawg said:
bosockboy said:
Yeah. Again, I get they technically aren't eligible because of the new coach. I just said they be interesting because of Manziel.
Let's move on it's not going to be them anyway. Even aside from the new coach, I don't think they'd want that distraction--but I would be fascinated.
Dan Bernstein @dan_bernstein 1h
Per source w/#NFL merchandising: Avalanche of Rams "Sam" jersey orders has them scrambling. Calls quantity "ridiculous." @YouCanPlayTeam
Per source w/#NFL merchandising: Avalanche of Rams "Sam" jersey orders has them scrambling. Calls quantity "ridiculous." @YouCanPlayTeam
Yes and PFT had a piece last week with sources saying multiple teams were volunteering and trying to get the gig this year.DrewDawg said:
I know a bunch of us had this discussion on Sam earlier in the year in the Draft threads. The knocks on him were around pre his announcement. Like Dukesox said a lot of college awards don't mean much. If He is an trophy winners don't get drafted don't you think that applies to defensive players of the year (granted sec players of the year typically are monsters)? He put up some big numbers on a good D. But his tape isn't particularly impressive. Just YouTube it. There are plenty of highlights and games out there. He's number 52. I want Sam to succeed.
Or they just want to have something to commemorate and support the first out gay NFL player.axx said:
People bought Tebow jersey's by the truck-load even after it became clear he was a terrible football player, it wasn't about his football skill, it was about who he was.
More likely, a lot of people view the pick as important even if Sam never makes the team.axx said:
phragle said:
Glad to be a trailblazer.Good luck in your efforts to be draft guy when when your analysis of athletic ability doesn't include coordination, flexibility, reflexes, body control, endurance, or hand eye coordination.
Monbo Jumbo said:
Agree - but I think he'll get other marketing opportunities outside of official NFL channels.
Also, I've seen some of the usual vitriol against Sam & 'the kiss' but honestly it hasn't been as bad as I feared. Still a long way to go, but things have really come a long way.
He's mentioned several times that he's been described as stiff in coverage and lacking agility to read and react to plays, primarily through scouting reports and Senior Bowl coverage, which covers at least four of the above criteria. He has a high motor so I bet his endurance is relatively solid and I have no idea how to determine hand eye coordination but would like to hear what you think of his ability in that area.Shelterdog said:
kenneycb said:
Don't bother. Shelterdog used to be a good poster but now he's just a troll that goes back an edits posts after they've been responded to.
FWIW I edited the post before I saw your response. I don't think adding the word sole changed the meaning much. And I'm not trolling: I believe what I'm saying.phragle said:
Now it's Sam unathletic? I'm not sure. I haven't watched him carefully enough to make up my own mind. And I doubt think you can reasonably determine how athletic he is without carefully watching him
And I think Phragle, along with 3 or 4 of us, did just that. We watched him. We've been watching him. We take what we know and add that to his combine numbers. I'm not a big combine guy but there's a correlation between combine numbers and performance for D especially for pass rushers. It's not the end of the story but he's not explosive on his tape either.
Pertinent to Michael Sam, I quickly drew up a distribution of Pro-football-reference's "approximate value" averaged out per season for the NFL drafts 2008-2010. This is not a hugely representative sample, and the "approximate" in the number should be heavily emphasized, but it can give you a sense of what to expect from players at given points in the draft. Note the huge accumulation of zeroes that starts in the second round and builds up into the seventh.
The black line is a simple linear regression. Basically, NFL teams shouldn't expect to get anything from their seventh rounders.
The red line is the "Gholston line", self-explanatory.
The black line is a simple linear regression. Basically, NFL teams shouldn't expect to get anything from their seventh rounders.
The red line is the "Gholston line", self-explanatory.
I think the avalanche of jersey sales is for a variety of reasons, both to support Sam himself and to send a message to the NFL using the type of signal they understand, money. I'm sure a lot of people bought jerseys just to effectively have a memento for a small but historic event, and you'll surely see some of his jerseys in pride marches moving forward and rightly so.
The NFL itself has to be happy he was drafted, and the avalanche of jersey sales is a strong signal from the public they're happy he was drafted as well. Whether neophytes who know squat about the game voting with their wallets or more experienced viewers who can read the reports and know his odds are long and buying anyway. That sort of signal reinforces to the NFL and broadcasts to other sports what the public feels about openly gay players in "manly" sports.
Sam's jersey drawing big sales probably adds to his Q rating, making it more likely that marketing types seriously consider signing him up for endorsements. That's both good and bad, because his actual football talent may not be enough, so there's a real risk of that becoming a circus.
At the end of the day I think his route to a roster spot remains where it was pegged weeks ago, be a special teams demon, work hard, be smart. The depth at his position and his poor measurables at the combine just reinforces that.
The NFL itself has to be happy he was drafted, and the avalanche of jersey sales is a strong signal from the public they're happy he was drafted as well. Whether neophytes who know squat about the game voting with their wallets or more experienced viewers who can read the reports and know his odds are long and buying anyway. That sort of signal reinforces to the NFL and broadcasts to other sports what the public feels about openly gay players in "manly" sports.
Sam's jersey drawing big sales probably adds to his Q rating, making it more likely that marketing types seriously consider signing him up for endorsements. That's both good and bad, because his actual football talent may not be enough, so there's a real risk of that becoming a circus.
At the end of the day I think his route to a roster spot remains where it was pegged weeks ago, be a special teams demon, work hard, be smart. The depth at his position and his poor measurables at the combine just reinforces that.
I was at Mizzou (my alma mater) two weeks ago and heard from a good source within the athletic department that Sam has already agreed to a book deal worth 750k-1m. I think he'll have plenty of opportunities to do quite well for the next couple years even if he never makes a roster.SeoulSoxFan said:
Dehere said:
If Sam's story (and inevitable book/movie) end up as good as Invincible or Blind Side, I will be happy for him. I'd love to see him display great effort, ethic and find a way to succeed like Papale, even if it is only for a short time.
God knows no one ever saw my name on the back of a Pro game jersey.
In re awards not mattering, I think that's true for some (Heisman -- goes to RBs and QBs who benefit from a system) and not others...among those others SEC d player of the year. Just to throw one more positive out there on Sam, during last year's draft another well known guy who dropped and was getting killed by those who focus on measureables was Tyrann Mathieu. If memory serves he was a 3rd rounder and some thought that was high for him -- not fast enough, not tall enough, etc. Worked out pretty well.
Oh, and in re awards, Mathieu's Bednarik for best D player was similarly dismissed.
Just saying.....time will tell on this one.
Oh, and in re awards, Mathieu's Bednarik for best D player was similarly dismissed.
Just saying.....time will tell on this one.
It would be very awkward if Sam were to have your name on the back of his jersey considering his story.HurstSoGood said:
Judging by Don Jones tweet I would be stunned if he ever played another down in the NFL. Whether he really is homophobic or was just stunned to see two men kiss he is now a homophobe in the eyes of America. The dolphins can't keep anyone off of twitter apparently
It was questionable at best in my eyes for the NFL to be ready for Sam (personal opinion is that they aren't) however there is no question in my mind the the league, players and coaches were not ready to witness "the kiss." Too soon Michael.....too soon. Frankly I was shocked that he wouldn't recognize this if his goal truly is to have a career in the NFL (which it may not be).Tyrone Biggums said:
One of the things that always struck me about "The Brady Six" was how years later, multiple Super Bowls under his belt, Brady still bawled talking about the moment he was drafted.
Given everything Sam had gone through, I cannot imagine what he was thinking at that moment. So I can't hold his reaction against him.
Given everything Sam had gone through, I cannot imagine what he was thinking at that moment. So I can't hold his reaction against him.
HomeRunBaker said:
I'm glad this event didn't wait around for the Algonquin Roundtable that is the NFL to feel "comfortable" with it.
I really hope that this is exceptionally painful to live through for all those you're describing. Find it funny that lack of "comfort" is Michael Sam's fault as far as you're concerned though.
I was only referencing what I feel is in his best interest at a career in the National Football League. He took the first step by coming out.......I can't help but feel he overstepped what players/coaches would be comfortable with that "could" be the nail in his career coffin.JohntheBaptist said:
Like it or not, the reality is that a great deal of Sam's chance at success is for him to not be a distraction to his teammates and coaching staff.......the kiss didn't do him any favors in this regard is all I'm saying.
I doubt Michael Sam gives a shit, and if his teammates or coaches act up the public outcry will be enough for them to be seeking further employment. The public is not on the side of muscle headed troglodytes.
If he's good, the kiss is a non-factor. If he's not, it might get cited, but it won't be the real reason.
By existing, he's overstepped the line of what a lot of people are comfortable with. Tough shit. If they're comfortable with him being a gay man, but not with showing it, they're not actually comfortable with him being a gay man.
By existing, he's overstepped the line of what a lot of people are comfortable with. Tough shit. If they're comfortable with him being a gay man, but not with showing it, they're not actually comfortable with him being a gay man.
Don't be so naive. It's tough enough for a rookie to enter and NFL training camp and earn respect from their peers. What happens when hazing occurs to Sam......will that be viewed as stuff that all rookies go through or will Sam go Jonathan Martin?Spacemans Bong said:
People look at Jason Collins as a comp and think all will be fine......I hope for Sam's sake he recognizes the vast differences. Collins was a 12-year veteran who was already well respected and had a ton of friends in the leagues circle.......Sam will have every single player in his group looking for any way possible to break him as they are fighting for jobs. The NFL is a brutal and cut throat business.
Maybe it didn't and maybe it did, but the larger issue is how you framed it- "too soon"- demonstrates a frankly old-fashioned mentality to how integration happens. It's not Sam's responsibility to give a shit. It's a camera in his house at an emotional moment. You can pound sand with your idea that doing himself Gay-acceptance-favors should have been anywhere on his mind right then.HomeRunBaker said:
Put another way, anyone for whom that kiss didn't do Sam any favors with aren't people from whom favors were expected anyways or will be particularly needed. They're the ones who need to on hyper-alert right now, because there are about a million axes ready to fall on them.
HomeRunBaker said:
Says who? This reads like concern trolling to me. Nails in his career coffin? If he or his team becomes distracted, it won't be Michael Sam's sexuality, it will be the people whining about it. That's the distraction. You're starting from the assumption that "of course this is a distraction." That's not Michael Sam, it's comments like yours.
He should be himself, and the kiss was a great start. That's how you normalize it for the few that might hop on Twitter and further the fratty/ macho vibe NFL cultivates.
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