Meet Brandan Wright

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,390
San Francisco
I thought we should have a thread dedicated to the supposed centerpiece of the Celtics' haul in the Rondo trade. It may be debatable as to whether Brandan Wright was the most important asset the Celtics received for Rondo, but there should be no argument that he is certainly the best player they got. So what type of player is Brandan Wright? I just spend a while scouring through some numbers and here are my impressions:
 
On Offense
 
This season Wright is posting some absurd efficiency numbers. He is your typical low-usage/high efficiency big man who uses his athleticism to take advantage of plays made largely by his teammates. His usage rate this season is 15% which is actually down from his career average of 17.4%. For some context this is in the ballpark of players like Ben McLemore, Joakim Noah, and Andrew Bogut this season. For some more context, Tyson Chandler's career usage rate is 13.8%.
 
When Wright uses a possession, he has been extraordinarily efficient, for three primary reasons which I list in no order:
 
1) He doesn't turn the ball over. His turnover rate this season is 7.7 TO/100 possessions. This places him in the upper echelon of Power Forward/Centers in this regard.
 
2) He takes good shots. A full 2/3's of his shot attempts this season have been either dunks (33% of his attempts) or layups (33% of his attempts). 
 
3) He converts the shots he takes at an elite level. He is currently leading the NBA in FG% on shots within 5 feet, converting at a whopping 80% rate.
 
Since we are only a quarter through the season, it makes some sense to ask how these factors stack up to his career averages. His turnover rate for his career is 7.9, so this has always been a strength of Wright's. The major changes have come in his shot selection and in his conversion rate: The percentage of his attempts within 3 feet has gone up 10% as compared with last season, and his FG% on such shots has increased 6% over last year.
 
But these are not drastic changes - Wright has always kept his offensive game close to the hoop, and his FG% on shots within 3 feet have been the following since he joined Dallas in 2011: 78%, 72%, 79%, 85%. These are all very good rates.
 
So what explains the uptick this season? I haven't watched many Mav's games, but I have to believe it is related to the fact that the Mavericks lineup switch out Vince Carter with Chandler Parsons.
 
I doubt that Wright will see as many easy layup and dunk opportunities on the Celtics - we have no one with the playmaking ability of Monta Ellis, nor do we have players who can distract defenses like Dirk or Parsons. To make the argument more statisical seeming, Wright has played all of his minutes with either Monta Ellis, Dirk Nowitzki, or Chandler Parsons on the floor, whose usage rates are respectively 29%, 27%, and 22%. For comparison, the Celtics' highest usage player is Jeff Green at 24%. Clearly the two teams have quite different distributions of responsibility offensively, and it will be interesting to see how Wright is integrated into a more egalitarian Celtics offense. He certainly adds a dimension of athleticism and finishing ability around the hoop that the Celtics have not had in a very long while.
 
Rebounding
 
Wright is a fascinating player when it comes to the glassware, as his offensive rebounding rate of 12.5% is nearly equal to his defensive rebounding rate - 13.2%. For context, defensive rebounds are gained at approximately a 70% rate, so the generic player's defensive rebounding rate ought to be nearly three times his defensive rebound rate (I am ignoring some subtleties here, but still).
 
The fact that these two rates are nearly equal for Wright speak to two things about wright: One is that he is a very good offensive rebounder who spends nearly all his time in the paint. For context, his ORR Is right around that of Demarcus Cousins and Zach Randolph. The other is that he is a disaster of a defensive rebounder, especially for someone who plays a lot of center for Dallas. I would bet that this is related to Wright's gaudy block numbers. At only 6'9 and 200 lbs, Wright generally uses his freakish athleticism rather than a massive frame to generate the volume of blocks that he does, but it probably comes at the cost of good rebounding positioning.
 
(Maybe someone else can look into this: Dallas rebounds 50% of Wright's blocks. Is this above average or below?)
 
For the Celtics this presents an interesting set of choices. Rondo was amazingly the best defensive rebounder on the team, and surely some of the responsibility will be picked up by the other big men, but if you are Brad Stevens which big man do you pair Wright with to ensure that the team you put out is getting defensive boards? Sullinger and Zeller are both pretty good on the defensive glass, but playing them with Wright would potentially clog the paint area. But if you play Wright with Olynyk it will be a disaster on the defensive glass, assuming they even get stops in the first place.
 
Defense
 
Brandan Wright is an elite shot blocker. He is currently tied for 6th in the NBA in Blocks per 100 possessions (among players who actually play a decent number of minutes), and this from a man who is three inches shorter than everyone else ahead of him. One might ask whether these blocks are "empty", as people have argued is the case for Deandre Jordan. The idea being, ok he gets a lot of blocks but are they actually making the defense better? In the case of Jordan, opponents still shoot an excellent percentage at the rim against him inspite of his gaudy block numbers, suggesting that Deandre Jordan is perhaps maybe not the defensive presence you might expect him to be.
 
In the case of Wright, it appears that he is genuinely a positive defensive influence around the rim. Opponents are shooting 53.7% on shots within 5 feet of the hoop on Wright this season, which puts him around players like Serge Ibaka, Samuel Dalembert, and Tiago Splitter, all of whom have pretty good defensive reputations. Furthermore, his foul rate is very low for a big man. 
 
On the other hand, looking at his plus minus numbers tell a different story. This season the Mavericks defense is nearly 6 points/100 possessions worse with Wright on the floor, and last season it was 2.5 points worse. But here context is crucial: Brandan Wright and Tyson Chandler almost never play together, having logged only 73 minutes together this season. Thus, the on/off numbers are in some sense isolating Wright's defense versus Chandler's defense, and it is no shame to be 6 points worse than the man widely regarded as the best rim-protector in the league (personally I would go for Bogut).
 
So what about last season? Here too the context is crucial. Wright usually came on for Samuel Dalembert, another defensive specialist. So it is no surprise that the defense suffered when it replaced the stout Dalembert with the 6'9 Wright.
 
Purely based on the numbers, I would tentatively say that Wright is a net positive defensive presence. The Maverick's defense has been fairly poor this season, but that is what you get when you are putting Dirk behind Wright.
 
In Sum
 
I am pretty pumped about Brandan Wright, which may seem strange considering the fact that he is averaging 8 points and 4 rebounds per game. But the stats love him: 82games, which primarily looks at on/off stuff, has him as the Mav's third best player each of the past two years. And over on APBR metrics they were saying that it was Wright, not Rondo, who was the best player in the deal. He certainly has a unique skillset and very definite limitations, but I am excited to see how Stevens puts him to use.
 
For the stats, I used a combination of basketballreference, nba.com, nbawowy!, and 82games.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,785
Thank you for this Wright write up. I have no idea what Brad Stevens is going to do and even less of an idea as to what Greg Stevens is going to do. I mentioned in a separate thread that Wright is listed as a top 10 PF by RPM. I'd like to see him out there with Sullinger. Sully can't get off the floor but he can box anyone out so that seems like it could be complimentary. Either way, I expect good things. 
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,797
Great job. Wright was a talented player who I thought the Celtics should have shown some interest in two summers ago when he was FA. I think he benefited from playing in a good system, and he benefited a lot from them getting Chandler back, as they have a similar offensive skillset and the team doesn't miss a beat when he comes into the game. I affectionately call him a rim-runner, a big man who sets screens on the outside but then cuts hard to the rim, not always because he is getting the ball, but to chase the offensive shot on pick and pops and corner threes and other outside shots that come off the screen. He cuts to the hoop and is long and a good enough athlete to get a lot of putback slams and easy baskets. While we don't have a playmaker like Ellis or Rondo on our team, we do have plenty of players that can brick jump shots.
 

Schnerres

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2009
1,554
Germany
Do you expect elite stuff from him? Hell no you don´t.
Do you think he will improve because he´ll get more minutes? I doubt this.
He will be another complementary piece, like so many other the Celtics have. I can only guess that it would probably be best that he keeps his bench role and the young Celts keep developping as starters. Probably Wrights minutes (18.7 so far this season) will go up to something between 20 and 25. His points could go down through him getting tougher (and less) shots and/or playing in a less prolific offensive system.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,390
San Francisco
Schnerres said:
Do you expect elite stuff from him? Hell no you don´t.
Do you think he will improve because he´ll get more minutes? I doubt this.
 
Depends on what you mean by elite. I think he is definitely elite at certain things: Shot blocking and offensive efficiency. It is definitely reasonable to expect his efficiency to decrease, maybe by a lot, without the creative players around him. Do you see Marcus Smart and Evan Turner driving and dishing as well as Monta Ellis or Devin Harris? Of course not. But he definitely has finishing ability. And I see no reason for the shot blocking to go down.
 
I am curious who will lose minutes. If it were me I would have Wright taking on Bass's role, since you want Olynyk, Sullinger, and Zeller to continue developing (both as players and as trade assets). But it is tough to see what the ripple effect will be on those lineups where Bass is featured - he is currently one of the highest usage players on the team, and taking Bass off for Wright means more creative responsibility for Evan Turner and Al Thornton. The idea makes me hurt inside.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,569
Somewhere
slamminsammya said:
I am curious who will lose minutes. If it were me I would have Wright taking on Bass's role, since you want Olynyk, Sullinger, and Zeller to continue developing (both as players and as trade assets). But it is tough to see what the ripple effect will be on those lineups where Bass is featured - he is currently one of the highest usage players on the team, and taking Bass off for Wright means more creative responsibility for Evan Turner and Al Thornton. The idea makes me hurt inside.
 
I would consider that, with the hopes that the Celtics can turn it around fast enough that Wright's skillset would be useful to them again. But I still think their best use of assets would be to turn him around for draft picks or a younger player with potential. 
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
63,942
Rotten Apple
With Varejao hurt I'd say Wright (or maybe Bass) might be headed there for their protected Memphis pick sooner than later.
 

Blacken

Robespierre in a Cape
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2007
12,152
Bass isn't big enough, he'd end up fighting Tristan Thompson for minutes. But I'll pack Wright's bags for him.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,663
Melrose, MA
Blacken said:
Bass isn't big enough, he'd end up fighting Tristan Thompson for minutes. But I'll pack Wright's bags for him.
Not that I want to see him gone, but I would be sort of amused by a deal of Zeller to the Cavs for a future first.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,704
Eddie Jurak said:
Not that I want to see him gone, but I would be sort of amused by a deal of Zeller to the Cavs for a future first.
Zeller can't go to the Cavs until a year past his trade date, I believe. I think a three team deal with Boston shipping out something for a C to go to the Cavs, and eating the matching salary for the Memphis lottery pick is a likely scenario, though (and likely with Brandan Wright going to Cleveland via their Bogans TPE).

EDIT: Spitballing say something like Green, the Cleveland #1, and the Philly second round picks to Denver, Mozgov, Afflalo, and Wright to Cleveland, and the Memphis pick, Thompson & Waiters to Boston?. Boston could throw in Sullinger to the Cavs to make them feel better about their frontcourt depth.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
Pretty sure Wright cant be traded for another 50 some days. One of the reasons Ainge pushed for the Robdo deal was so players acquired would be eligible for a trade by the deadline.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,640
Grin&MartyBarret said:
Pretty sure Wright cant be traded for another 50 some days. One of the reasons Ainge pushed for the Robdo deal was so players acquired would be eligible for a trade by the deadline.
He can be traded alone at any time, he can't be part of a package for about 50 days.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,704
Grin&MartyBarret said:
Pretty sure Wright cant be traded for another 50 some days. One of the reasons Ainge pushed for the Robdo deal was so players acquired would be eligible for a trade by the deadline.
He can be sent to the Cavs outright as he fits in their TPE and therefore doesn't need to be packaged with anyone else. Wright/Sullinger for the Memphis #1/filler is doable because it would technically be two separate trades.
 

RG33

Certain Class of Poster
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
7,223
CA
ifmanis5 said:
With Varejao hurt I'd say Wright (or maybe Bass) might be headed there for their protected Memphis pick sooner than later.
For the record, the Memphis pick that Cleveland owns is protected as follows:

"Selections 1-5 and 15-30 in 2015, then 15-30 in 2016, before loosening to just 1-5 in 2017 and 20018 (becoming unprotected in 2019)."

So, it would more than likely be a 2017 1st round pick unless Memphis collapsed next year.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,272
He never was imo which is why the trade was consummated at a time so he could be moved by the deadline as Ainge continues shuffling 9th-10th men on the roster. What's he worth a mid-2nd at best?
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,663
Melrose, MA
HomeRunBaker said:
He never was imo which is why the trade was consummated at a time so he could be moved by the deadline as Ainge continues shuffling 9th-10th men on the roster. What's he worth a mid-2nd at best?
Where would you slot him in with the other C's bigs?  (Olynyk, Zeller, Sullinger, Bass, Wright)
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
Eddie Jurak said:
Where would you slot him in with the other C's bigs?  (Olynyk, Zeller, Sullinger, Bass, Wright)
 
Both Wright and Zeller have value in the new NBA. Teams that aim to play at a fast pace will always be able to find a use for athletic, fast big men with good hands who can run the floor. Neither is ever likely to be a true starting Center, and both have limitations that are exposed anytime the game slows down, but they're useful guys who have long NBA careers ahead of them and will fetch a reasonable return if the right sort of team is looking for a big. The Wright to Cleveland talk from a couple of weeks ago always felt a bit misguided to me, as he doesn't really fit what Cleveland actually needs in a big, but somebody will certainly find a place for him.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,272
Eddie Jurak said:
Where would you slot him in with the other C's bigs?  (Olynyk, Zeller, Sullinger, Bass, Wright)
Flip a coin. None play more than 10-15 mpg on a contender. None have much upside to ever become more then this. None would return more than a 2nd rounder in return.

We have a roster loaded with 8th-9th men with only a couple exceptions.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
HomeRunBaker said:
Flip a coin. None play more than 10-15 mpg on a contender. None have much upside to ever become more then this. None would return more than a 2nd rounder in return.

We have a roster loaded with 8th-9th men with only a couple exceptions.
 
This is either hyperbole or you're grossly overestimating the depth of most NBA teams. 
 
Here are some of the 6th and 7th men (in terms of minutes played) of playoff teams in the NBA right now: Rasual Butler & Kris Humphries; Sefalosa & Schroder; Alan Anderson & Kevin Garnett; Shawne Williams & Shabazz Napier; Steve Blake & Chris Kaman; Jamal Crawford & Spencer Hawes; Tayshaun Prince & Beno Udrih; Richard Jefferson & Devin Harris (incidentally, their actual 6th and 7th men were just traded to the C's where they magically became. . .8th/9th men); Marcus Morris & Gerald Green.
 
And that's ignoring teams like the Knicks, T-Wolves, Detroit, Indiana, Orlando, Utah, the Lakers and others that aren't close to playoff contention and lack talent on their rosters. 
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,712
Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
This is either hyperbole or you're grossly overestimating the depth of most NBA teams. 
 
 
I'm not sure HRB is really that far off on the current talent level (though I think Sully/Olynyk with their contracts are worth more than just a 2nd round pick) .  Maybe more accurately the team is full of 6th through 9th players, but that's about it.  Who on this team is currently a starting caliber player on a good team?  Sure you can point to other crappy teams and say some of our roster could start for them, but that's just because they don't have 5 starting caliber players either.  
 
Sully on a team with a rim protector?  Zeller on a team that just needs a high efficiency 7 footer than can run up and down the court?  Jeff Green on a team that just needs…. I don't know what?  Marcus Smart or James Young in 2 or 3 years (maybe)? I think it's pretty easy to make the argument that even the best players on the Celtics are nothing more than situational bench players on a contender at the moment.  Maybe the good ones are more like 6th/7th men, while the others are more 8-10th men, but HRB's point overall is pretty true. The team has very little hierarchy right now. I don't know who I would bet on in a matchup of the starting 5 vs. the first 5 off the bench. 
 
As far as where Wright fits in with  the other bigs….I'm not really sure. We haven't seen him play enough.  I feel confident saying he should be in the top 4 until he proves otherwise though, and that Bass should be the odd man out. 
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,663
Melrose, MA
I don't see why Zeller couldn't start and be an asset on a lot of teams.  Say, alongside Ibaka on the Durant/Westbrook/Harden team that almost won it.  Or on the 2007-08 Celtics next to KG.  
 
I think the problem with this Celtics team is not that they are a team of bench players... just that they are a team that lacks the #1-#3 guys.  
 
Add the 2007-08 versions of Pierce, Garnett, and Allen to this team, and I think you have a legit contender.  Take them off of the 2007-08 champion Celtics, and I think you have a lottery team.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,272
Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
This is either hyperbole or you're grossly overestimating the depth of most NBA teams. 
 
Here are some of the 6th and 7th men (in terms of minutes played) of playoff teams in the NBA right now: Rasual Butler & Kris Humphries; Sefalosa & Schroder; Alan Anderson & Kevin Garnett; Shawne Williams & Shabazz Napier; Steve Blake & Chris Kaman; Jamal Crawford & Spencer Hawes; Tayshaun Prince & Beno Udrih; Richard Jefferson & Devin Harris (incidentally, their actual 6th and 7th men were just traded to the C's where they magically became. . .8th/9th men); Marcus Morris & Gerald Green.
 
And that's ignoring teams like the Knicks, T-Wolves, Detroit, Indiana, Orlando, Utah, the Lakers and others that aren't close to playoff contention and lack talent on their rosters. 
Would you feel more comfortable with saying 7th to 9th? Generally speaking nobody is looking to acquire anyone off our bench to be their 1st big or 1st perimeter player off their bench to help a playoff push. Could an injury or a hole add value to a Sully for example? Sure. For the most part anyone a team plucks off our bench would be to fill the backend of their rotation.....not be a 20-25 mpg guy as a quality 6th (or 7th) man would be.

As far as value.....we received contract filler for a PG who some swore they would only have traded for Chris Paul a couple years ago. I stand by my statement that our bench guys value is in the 2nd round.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
radsoxfan said:
 
I'm not sure HRB is really that far off on the current talent level (though I think Sully/Olynyk with their contracts are worth more than just a 2nd round pick) .  Maybe more accurately the team is full of 6th through 9th players, but that's about it.  Who on this team is currently a starting caliber player on a good team?  Sure you can point to other crappy teams and say some of our roster could start for them, but that's just because they don't have 5 starting caliber players either.  
 
Sully on a team with a rim protector?  Zeller on a team that just needs a high efficiency 7 footer than can run up and down the court?  Jeff Green on a team that just needs…. I don't know what?  Marcus Smart or James Young in 2 or 3 years (maybe)? I think it's pretty easy to make the argument that even the best players on the Celtics are nothing more than situational bench players on a contender at the moment.  Maybe the good ones are more like 6th/7th men, while the others are more 8-10th men, but HRB's point overall is pretty true. The team has very little hierarchy right now. I don't know who I would bet on in a matchup of the starting 5 vs. the first 5 off the bench. 
 
As far as where Wright fits in with  the other bigs….I'm not really sure. We haven't seen him play enough.  I feel confident saying he should be in the top 4 until he proves otherwise though, and that Bass should be the odd man out. 
 
I guess it sort of depends how you define "good." I'll put it like this: there are a handful of teams in the league for whom not a single Celtic would present an upgrade in the starting 5. By my count, it's New Orleans, Chicago, San Antonio, Atlanta, Washington, Dallas, Golden State, OKC, Sacramento and Portland. Miami is an odd case where their starting PG is better than Smart currently, but there's little chance they wouldn't swap the two. Not all of those teams are good, but most are. 
 
Overall, I think you are both drastically underestimating several current Celtics and overestimating both bench depth and the quality of starting 5s throughout the league. 
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
HomeRunBaker said:
Would you feel more comfortable with saying 7th to 9th? Generally speaking nobody is looking to acquire anyone off our bench to be their 1st big or 1st perimeter player off their bench to help a playoff push. Could an injury or a hole add value to a Sully for example? Sure. For the most part anyone a team plucks off our bench would be to fill the backend of their rotation.....not be a 20-25 mpg guy as a quality 6th (or 7th) man would be.

As far as value.....we received contract filler for a PG who some swore they would only have traded for Chris Paul a couple years ago. I stand by my statement that our bench guys value is in the 2nd round.
 
Just for the record: You're arguing that nobody on the C's bench would be a 20-25 mpg guy for anybody, despite the fact that the "contract filler" the Celtics received for Rondo--both bench players, by the way--were 20-25 mpg guys on a good team. In other words, as recently as 3 weeks ago, two members of the C's bench were rotation players on a team fighting for homecourt in the West.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,712
Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
I guess it sort of depends how you define "good." I'll put it like this: there are a handful of teams in the league for whom not a single Celtic would present an upgrade in the starting 5. By my count, it's New Orleans, Chicago, San Antonio, Atlanta, Washington, Dallas, Golden State, OKC, Sacramento and Portland. Miami is an odd case where their starting PG is better than Smart currently, but there's little chance they wouldn't swap the two. Not all of those teams are good, but most are. 
 
Overall, I think you are both drastically underestimating several current Celtics and overestimating both bench depth and the quality of starting 5s throughout the league. 
 
I'm drastically underestimating them by saying what?  That our best players are more like the 6th or 7th best player on a contender, not the 5th best player on a contender? Is that a "drastic" difference? You just rattled off 10 teams, including many of the title contenders, for which no Celtics would start.
 
Sure some of our guys could start on some good teams if the other 4 starters can cover for their deficiencies (and all 4 are also overall better players).  But you could probably say that just about any "7th or 8th best player" on a good team too. 
 
It's a team that currently has no "top" players.  There is some youth with the potential to get there, but the point remains the entire team is as presently constructed has a very flat hierarchy.  If you want to argue semantics or small variations on that statement, fair enough I guess.  If you want to argue that I'm drastically underestimating them, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. 
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
radsoxfan said:
 
I'm drastically underestimating them by saying what?  That our best players are more like the 6th or 7th best player on a contender, not the 5th best player on a contender? Is that a "drastic" difference? You just rattled off 10 teams, including many of the title contenders, for which no Celtics would start.
 
Sure some of our guys could start on some good teams if the other 4 starters can cover for their deficiencies (and all 4 are also overall better players).  But you could probably say that just about any "7th or 8th best player" on a good team too. 
 
It's a team that currently has no "top" players.  There is some youth with the potential to get there, but the point remains the entire team is as presently constructed has a very flat hierarchy.  If you want to argue semantics or small variations on that statement, fair enough I guess.  If you want to argue that I'm drastically underestimating them, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. 
 
During the course of this conversation we've gone from "the Celtics entire roster is comprised of 8th/9th men in the NBA with only a couple of exceptions" to a Celtic could start for 2/3rds of the league. That's a pretty drastic difference. 
 
As for the second paragraph, you asked  "Who on this team is currently a starting caliber player on a good team." I answered by suggesting that a Celtic could start for 2/3rds of the league, so I'm not really sure what this means: 
 
 
Sure some of our guys could start on some good teams if the other 4 starters can cover for their deficiencies (and all 4 are also overall better players). 
 
 
Isn't every 5 man unit in the league a group of guys paired in order to cover for each other's deficiencies? It seems like you're implying that none of the C's players have skill sets what could contribute to a good team, and that's the drastic underestimation I'm talking about. 
 
Edit: And as far as the assertion that the C's have no "top" players, sure. Of course they don't. They're 1.3 years into a rebuild, but there's a huge gulf between stating they have no "top" players and the original statement that they're 8th/9th guys in the NBA. 
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,712
Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
During the course of this conversation we've gone from "the Celtics entire roster is comprised of 8th/9th men in the NBA with only a couple of exceptions" to a Celtic could start for 2/3rds of the league. That's a pretty drastic difference. 
 
 
You are arguing about the specifics that HRB started out with, and then you're attributing them to me. I said that HRB wasn't too far off, though I would admit there are players better than 8th/9th men. If you'd like to specifically say my argument is "way off" feel free to read what I wrote.
 
I said generally that "good" and "contending" teams have starting teams better than the Celtics' best players.  You then made my argument for me by going through 10 teams that no Celtics would start on. If I said "most contending teams", we would be pretty much in total agreement.  But now there is a drastic difference?
 
I don't know why you keep trying to conflate different arguments, misattribute them, and come up with your own narrative on this issue.  The Celtics are made up of role players right now.  End of story.  
 
If one or two of them can masquerade as a 4th or 5th best player on a few contenders (as long as their 1-3 players are very good to elite), and that's drastically different than calling someone the 6th best player on a contending team, then I guess you win?
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
radsoxfan said:
 
You are arguing about the specifics that HRB started out with, and then you're attributing them to me. I said that HRB wasn't too far off, though I would admit there are players better than 8th/9th men. If you'd like to specifically say my argument is "way off" feel free to read what I wrote.
 
I said generally that "good" and "contending" teams have starting teams better than the Celtics' best players.  You then made my argument for me by going through 10 teams that no Celtics would start on. If I said "most contending teams", we would be pretty much in total agreement.  But now there is a drastic difference?
 
I don't know why you keep trying to conflate different arguments, misattribute them, and come up with your own narrative on this issue.  The Celtics are made up of role players right now.  End of story.  
 
If one or two of them can masquerade as a 4th or 5th best player on a few contenders (as long as their 1-3 players are very good to elite), and that's drastically different than calling someone the 6th best player on a contending team, then I guess you win?
 
I realize I conflated a couple of the arguments you made with HRBs. I apologize. We are mostly in agreement, I think. 
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,272
Grin&MartyBarret said:
 
During the course of this conversation we've gone from "the Celtics entire roster is comprised of 8th/9th men in the NBA with only a couple of exceptions" to a Celtic could start for 2/3rds of the league. That's a pretty drastic difference. 
 
As for the second paragraph, you asked  "Who on this team is currently a starting caliber player on a good team." I answered by suggesting that a Celtic could start for 2/3rds of the league, so I'm not really sure what this means: 
 
 
I don't know how to respond to this so I'll say......

A) I've never said "a Celtic could start for 2/3rds of the league."

B) I've never asked "Who on this team is currently a starting caliber player on a good team."

Brandan Wright was a fungible reserve for a team with little frontcourt depth. That doesn't make a player teams long after and we're seeing him exposed when not surrounded by All-Stars. 8th man, 9th man, 7th man.....you can call him what you want he's no different than the other bench bigs we already have. He may be worse.

I was initially responding to Eddie Jurak and his grouping of Sully, Olynyk, Bass, Zeller and Wright. I shouldn't have used the term "entire roster" however in context I was referring to Eddie's grouping.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,569
Somewhere
The problem with the Celtics' bigs is that they are basically role players with limited potential. That means that only contending teams with the right roles available are going to be looking into them. And those teams are always looking to trade worthless or highly compromised assets for those types of role players, something we should have noticed during the Celtics' recent run of contention. 
 
As an aside, I pretty much expect Wright to sign back up with Dallas next season for whatever they can pay him. Does he fit anywhere else?
 

amfox1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2003
6,822
The back of your computer
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA  9m9 minutes ago
Boston is finalizing a trade to send forward Brandan Wright to the Phoenix Suns, league source tells Yahoo Sports.
 
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA  6m6 minutes ago
Phoenix is sending Boston a future draft pick for Brandan Wright, absorbing Wright into an exception, league source tells Yahoo.
 
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA  4m4 minutes ago
Phoenix is sending Boston the first-round pick that it owns via Minnesota, league source tells Yahoo Sports.
 

amfox1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2003
6,822
The back of your computer
Note:  the MIN pick is likely to be two 2nd round picks.
 
2015 first round draft pick from Minnesota
Minnesota's 1st round pick to Phoenix protected for selections 1-12 in 2015 and 1-12 in 2016; if Minnesota has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Phoenix by 2016, then Minnesota will instead convey its 2016 2nd round pick and 2017 2nd round pick to Phoenix [Minnesota-New Orleans-Phoenix, 7/27/2012]
 
 
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,213
amfox1 said:

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@
WojYahooNBA  9m9 minutes ago
Boston is finalizing a trade to send forward Brandan Wright to the Phoenix Suns, league source tells Yahoo Sports.

 

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@
WojYahooNBA  6m6 minutes ago
Phoenix is sending Boston a future draft pick for Brandan Wright, absorbing Wright into an exception, league source tells Yahoo.

 

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@
WojYahooNBA  4m4 minutes ago
Phoenix is sending Boston the first-round pick that it owns via Minnesota, league source tells Yahoo Sports.
The Minny pick is protected 1-12 both this year and next, otherwise it becomes two second rounders. So it's two second rounders.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,944
SO now we have to root for Minny to win?  That's going to be odd.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,569
Somewhere
The dude has a narrowly defined role that only works on a few squads and probably will end up a Maverick again this offseason.
 

TheDeuce222

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
380
Well, it's certainly a longshot, but as someone pointed out on twitter, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Minnesota improves markedly next year and becomes good enough to be 8-10 in the West (echoing moondog - the pick is top-12, not top-14 protected, so if they finish 9th or 10th, we could receive the first rounder).  It's basically the Jordan Crawford trade exactly all over again.  A very long-odds dice throw for the potential of a first rounder the following year, and if not, two high 30s picks next year and the year after.  I guess Root for Minnesota to get Okafor if we don't, and for Okafor, Wiggins (who looks very good lately), Lavine, and Rubio to make the 15-16 TWolves this year's Bucks.  
 
Another underrated but potentially important aspect of the deal is that it should help the Suns going forward this year, as he's undoubtedly a big upgrade over Miles Plumlee.  If the Suns continue to play well and the Thunder make the recovery everyone is ofrecasting, the Clippers could potentially miss the playoffs and deliver us a lottery pick in 15 (especially if they have an injury or two - Doc the GM has left them pretty shallow).    
 

amfox1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2003
6,822
The back of your computer
Draft pick update (includes Wright trade but not Green trade):
 
[SIZE=11pt]2015 1st round picks (BOS & LAC), plus 2nd round picks (BOS & PHI* +WAS 2nd round pick, top 49 protected)  [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt](as of 1/7, BOS picks 9, 21, 32, 39, 53)[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]2016 1st round picks (BOS, BRK, CLE (top 10 protected in 2016/17/18, unprotected in 19) & DAL (top 7 protected in 2016-20, unless between 4-14 in 2015)) (plus PHI*/MIA/MIN**/DAL/CLE 2nd round picks – no BOS 2nd round pick)[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]2017 1st round pick (higher of BOS & BRK), will lose 2nd round pick if #46+ and if BOS switches 1st round picks w/BRK, plus CLE/MIN** 2nd round picks[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]2018 1st round picks (BOS & BRK), plus 2nd round pick[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]* Assumes PHI is in the lottery in 2015 (a very safe assumption)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]** Assumes MIN is in the top 12 in 2015 (a very safe assumption) and 2016 (a reasonable assumption); otherwise BOS gets MIN's 2015 or 2016 1st round pick[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]The Celtics basically own the 2016 draft - 4 likely 1st rounders and 5 likely 2nd rounders. [/SIZE]
 

schillzilla

New Member
May 11, 2006
122
I know it's early, and they certainly won't use all those picks- but does anyone know what the class looks like for the 2016 draft? If it is projected to be a deep draft this could setup well.