Probably because it isn't true. As mentioned above, it was 5. I would lay considerable odds no team has ever had a preseason win total of 2 or lower.
Maye-day Every Day
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
They have preseason o/u on pro football reference, but I read it wrong. o/u that year was five wins, third worst in 1991, they had the worst SB odds and a league worst o/u of 4 wins. So there’s your answer.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1992/preseason_odds.htm
(or, what @johnmd20 said)
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1992/preseason_odds.htm
(or, what @johnmd20 said)
I admit it's getting better (better)
A little better all the time (it can't get no worse)
Edit: Looking more concretely as @Rudy's Curve curve does the "winners" are 3 wins for the expansion Panthers and Jags!
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I just looked through - the only ones under 4 were the expansion Panthers/Jags (3 each) and the '17 Jets (3.5).
Nice spot, I forgot to check those.
Wild that just one year after being projected for the fewest wins ever both the Panthers and Jags made their conference championship in their 2nd season (Jags memorably lost to the jambalaya Pats -- screw you, Desmond Howard).
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Athletic Pod discussed the worst supporting cast for AFC QBs. This included coaching, OL, pass catchers, run game, etc. Mays had them as a slam dunk as worst in the AFC and Damien Harris had them 15th. Harris stood up to Mays a bit and spoke well of some of the players. That being said most people not on BBTL (and to be fair most of you all get that we don't have a great situation) think poorly of the Patriots offensive situation. That opinion is not shared about our defense - even those who have concerns about the defense taking a big step back still see it as a top 2/3rds of the league unit whereas the offense is considered bottom 5 or so if not bottom 3 or even worst.
Who is worse than them in the AFC? Maybe the Broncos? Raiders I guess you could make somewhat of an argument for
I'll give you the Panthers in the NFC.
I think they are comfortably in the bottom 4. Gun to my head I wouild say they are only better than the Panthers
Raiders was Harris's answer. BTW I really enjoy Harris as a commentator. I hope he sticks around. I like his insights and his personality.
His argument was even though their pass catchers are better their OL is probably worse, their coaching is worse, and their run game is worse. He also thinks the QB won't make as much of the pass catchers because their QB situation sucks. Now that last bit is cheating a bit because it is supposed to NOT consider the QB but... whatever. I would not have had the Raiders in my bottom 2. I think I would have had the Broncos because I do not like their pass catching group. With the Pats they have one of the worst OLs and pass catching groups on paper (yes yes yes it could be better when games are played and YES that is why we play the games!) so it makes sense they were in the bottom 2.
AVP not calling plays before also bothered Mays and Harris.
I'm not so sure about the Panthers. Diontae Johnson is probably the best WR on either team, Legette probably rated ahead of Polk (at least on draft capital) and they added Jonathan Brooks (I guess Rhamondre has proved it but would you be surprised if Brooks outproduced him? Not really?).
I won't pretend to know how big of an upgrade either one is over who they had, but, they did also sign two new OL. I'm personally expecting a bounceback from Young-- QBs drafted 1.01 have a pretty strong track record of being at least average; JaMarcus Russell is really the only true bust there, and I think Young has already showed he's not that kind of total-bust huge-mistake pick, so, I think improvement is quite likely, especially given the 5+ new starters listed above.
I'm not picking the Panthers to win their division or anything but, gun to my head? I might take the cats over the pats.
Raiders is a fair answer but Davante Adams is probably the best offensive player on any of these four teams, that should count for something here. Broncos look bad but in this group they probably have the best chance of the coach managing to make lemonade out of lemons. But the more I think about this the more I think the Panthers are probably an inch better on offense than all three of these AFC teams. Good cheap source of fantasy points this year at least!
In the future, Brooks definitely. But he did tear his ACL on November 11th. So he will take some time to get going. Took Breece Hall a while to get going last year and he tore his ACL a month earlier than Brooks did. So I'd take Rham this season for sure.
After 2024, it's Brooks all the way.
Brandon Thorn, OL expert, named the Pats and the Commanders as the 2 lines he is most concerned will be able to function as an NFL offense. Scathing review...
Paraphasing closely:
Thorn: "One of the biggest head scratchers of the offseason was signign Chuks who could barely play RT at PIT to play LT... Maybe it is Caedan Wallace down the road though?"
Mays "Don't buy sushi at the gas station and don't spend $4mm on your LT".
Thorn: encouraged by Peters even though it is his first head OL gig.
Thorn: Question marks everywhere but Onwenu and Andrews.
Thorn on Sow: Loved him in the run game but... pass protection was dreadful. He is very heavy handed, stiff, and his dexterity and recovery is bad. Guys who are good with their hands can beat him quick. Beaten too glaringly and too quick and too often.
Thorn on Onwenu: not good as a pass protector at RT. He can't deal with speed off the edge. If he is your RT it isn't terrible. He would like Wallace as the RT and Onwenu as guard. Thinks Onwenu SHOULD be a guard and not a tackle.
Thorn: Overall it is going to be a tall task for Scott Peters to get FUNCTIONAL pass pro out of this line!
Yes, he said it is going to be difficult to have FUNCTIONAL pass pro.
This is on the Athletic Pod and came out in his rankings 6-27. I think if you compare what I wrote above and what he wrote/said we are on the same page.
I guess this discussion should probably or could probably be in different threads but we got into supporting cast for Maye here and this ties the loose end on that. That and it is nice to have an OL expert chime in. They were discussing Maye in regard to the line too.
Paraphasing closely:
Thorn: "One of the biggest head scratchers of the offseason was signign Chuks who could barely play RT at PIT to play LT... Maybe it is Caedan Wallace down the road though?"
Mays "Don't buy sushi at the gas station and don't spend $4mm on your LT".
Thorn: encouraged by Peters even though it is his first head OL gig.
Thorn: Question marks everywhere but Onwenu and Andrews.
Thorn on Sow: Loved him in the run game but... pass protection was dreadful. He is very heavy handed, stiff, and his dexterity and recovery is bad. Guys who are good with their hands can beat him quick. Beaten too glaringly and too quick and too often.
Thorn on Onwenu: not good as a pass protector at RT. He can't deal with speed off the edge. If he is your RT it isn't terrible. He would like Wallace as the RT and Onwenu as guard. Thinks Onwenu SHOULD be a guard and not a tackle.
Thorn: Overall it is going to be a tall task for Scott Peters to get FUNCTIONAL pass pro out of this line!
Yes, he said it is going to be difficult to have FUNCTIONAL pass pro.
This is on the Athletic Pod and came out in his rankings 6-27. I think if you compare what I wrote above and what he wrote/said we are on the same page.
I guess this discussion should probably or could probably be in different threads but we got into supporting cast for Maye here and this ties the loose end on that. That and it is nice to have an OL expert chime in. They were discussing Maye in regard to the line too.
So, Mays had them rated as his 27th best offense? Or is 6-27 the date of the podcast?
Sorry for the lack of clarity there. Thorn had them as his second worst OL on 6-27-2024 when he released his rankings. It is behind a paywall but here is a site that discusses it.
PFF has them 28th:
So, yeah, sure you can be optimistic that they CAN get better but I think those of us down on the line aren't being all "doom and gloom" or whatever vs just being realistic.
Here is Thorns assessment per Patriots Wire link above:
Uh. Nobody posted these clips of Drake Maye on hard knocks?
View: https://twitter.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1810862797334413558
View: https://twitter.com/talkingiants/status/1810847446357995741?s=46
View: https://twitter.com/nfl/status/1810769643990376834?s=46
View: https://twitter.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1810862797334413558
View: https://twitter.com/talkingiants/status/1810847446357995741?s=46
View: https://twitter.com/nfl/status/1810769643990376834?s=46
I dont know shit about shit, but that all looks so performative. To those that study these things, is it? Is Daniels's answer to "what's your play here? ("Throw a touchdown?") considered a failure? An indication that he's not too uptight?
Again, as a nearly-completely uninformed outsider, Daboll looked like he was trying to show how smart he was. if this is indicative of the process, no wonder so many drafted QBs fail.
Again, as a nearly-completely uninformed outsider, Daboll looked like he was trying to show how smart he was. if this is indicative of the process, no wonder so many drafted QBs fail.
so I watched the Maye clip and I am not sure I get it? I’m also not sure that Daboll looks super impressed?
isn’t Maye just repeating what Daboll just said? Am I missing something?
The stories from the Belichick days were that they wanted to see what a kid could retain, because it showed an understanding of the concepts and how they process information quickly. This did seem performative.
Probably missing the rest of the clip? I'd assume there's more on the show.
EDIT: They also wanted to trade up to 3.
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And for evidence of how little something like this matters, take a look at some clips from "Camp Gruden" like 13 years ago and his conversations with Ryan Mallet and Cam Newton.
Mallet: View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAkdOs8IxLQ&ab_channel=6Magazine
- jumping to around 2:20 is a good starting point
Cam Newton: View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5rP8-pkMX8&ab_channel=theczabe
If you watched these two clips, you'd think Mallet was the next Peyton and Cam was the next Ryan Leaf.
Mallet: View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAkdOs8IxLQ&ab_channel=6Magazine
- jumping to around 2:20 is a good starting point
Cam Newton: View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5rP8-pkMX8&ab_channel=theczabe
If you watched these two clips, you'd think Mallet was the next Peyton and Cam was the next Ryan Leaf.
Onwenu has played RT and RG. I think Wallace has played RG and RT too. They are clearly looking for a best 5. If Wallace can play RT that helps a lot because Onwenu is a lot better on the inside. It will be interesting to see who ends up where. Aside from OC nothing is set in stone.
60% of the line being solid would be pretty nice actually. Then one of those "a miracle occurs" camp cut/trade things, and maybe we can wishcast a line that's nearing the middle of the bell curve.
To be fair, I don't think Mallet's (RIP) decision making has ever been an issue, and is probably why he stuck around the league for as long as he did. He knew he could step in and at least make the right decisions. It was his talent that was the problem.
Meanwhile, Cam Newton could use his talent and athleticism to overcome bad decision making, well, until he couldn't anymore.
So I am a big Hogs fan and was super high on Mallet going into the draft and after the Pats got him. I'm not sure I'd agree that his talent was problem or the general consensus. He had a cannon for an arm, very good mechanics, could make all the throws and experience in a pro style offense. He definitely had very limited mobility, but the main weaknesses seemed to be his lapses in judgement and forced throws. I would say that his understanding of offense as needed by an NFL team was elite (as shown by the video), but his real time processing was a massive issue (and frankly, it's a really difficult skill and we've seen a ton of QBs with all the talent that could never figure that out).
I just wanted to show that these whiteboard QB interviews are not necessarily all that indicative and even in them Maye looked nowhere close to Mallet who never amounted to anything in the NFL.
Well, Maye was far from perfect but he really impressed in preseason game #2. Plenty of examples of why he was drafted so highly.
The most impressive thing was his deep ball to Baker that Baker dropped. That ball was right on the money and thrown without a ton of obvious effort in the delivery. Also a plus, he did a nice step up in the pocket before the throw.
View: https://twitter.com/PFF_Steve/status/1824245441539584290
Another thing about him that wasn't necessarily advertised is how well he throws the screen pass. He hit a couple of them last week, and he seems to have a knack for putting the ball right where and when it needs to be. Mac used to put more air under his screens and by the time the receiver had the ball there was nowhere for him to go.
View: https://twitter.com/TSportsAgency/status/1824275529115029560
Plenty of indication that he has, in addition to an arm Mac never had, a feel for the game and the position that Mac never had.
I thought on one of his runs he looked a little indecisive, and I'm sure he has plenty of other stuff to clean up, but that was an encouraging performance.
The most impressive thing was his deep ball to Baker that Baker dropped. That ball was right on the money and thrown without a ton of obvious effort in the delivery. Also a plus, he did a nice step up in the pocket before the throw.
View: https://twitter.com/PFF_Steve/status/1824245441539584290
Another thing about him that wasn't necessarily advertised is how well he throws the screen pass. He hit a couple of them last week, and he seems to have a knack for putting the ball right where and when it needs to be. Mac used to put more air under his screens and by the time the receiver had the ball there was nowhere for him to go.
View: https://twitter.com/TSportsAgency/status/1824275529115029560
Plenty of indication that he has, in addition to an arm Mac never had, a feel for the game and the position that Mac never had.
I thought on one of his runs he looked a little indecisive, and I'm sure he has plenty of other stuff to clean up, but that was an encouraging performance.
I thought Maye looked pretty good last night. He air mailed one throw, and someone (can't remember who) had to leap for a one-handed catch on another, but he delivered some nice passes, and had two deep balls that were beautiful, though neither was completed. And his read on the TD run was beautiful too.
Agree on all this. It is going to take a good bit of time, but decent decision-making quickly and a strong arm will take you far.
I thought about this last night....maybe I'm way off here, but as I watched them struggle to move the ball, I thought that it will be very difficult for them to put together many long scoring drives. Their run game won't be dynamic, and the QBs won't have much time to throw, so it's going to be difficult to string together 6-10 play drives that result in touchdowns.
So with a QB room that has pretty big arms, I'd adopt a much riskier offense and look to throw medium and deep passes as much as possible. Yes there will be turnovers. But I see them needing to hit on a bunch of these in order to score points.
So with a QB room that has pretty big arms, I'd adopt a much riskier offense and look to throw medium and deep passes as much as possible. Yes there will be turnovers. But I see them needing to hit on a bunch of these in order to score points.
Most important thing this season is seeing Maye progress, and we saw evidence of that tonight. Success!
From Lazar:
Although there were minor miscues, Maye's performance was extremely encouraging. He threw several solid downfield passes to fellow rookie WR Javon Baker, made aggressive but safe decisions with the ball (attacked man-to-man), and his mobility seemed to settle him down.
Along with seeing his athleticism shine, the most encouraging step for Maye was how well he worked his progressions from the pocket. Trust me, there's nothing better in this world than a quarterback hitting the backside dig in rhythm. It's like, inject that [bleep] into my veins.
https://www.patriots.com/news/game-observations-eight-takeaways-from-the-patriots-second-preseason-game-vs-the-eagles
From Lazar:
Although there were minor miscues, Maye's performance was extremely encouraging. He threw several solid downfield passes to fellow rookie WR Javon Baker, made aggressive but safe decisions with the ball (attacked man-to-man), and his mobility seemed to settle him down.
Along with seeing his athleticism shine, the most encouraging step for Maye was how well he worked his progressions from the pocket. Trust me, there's nothing better in this world than a quarterback hitting the backside dig in rhythm. It's like, inject that [bleep] into my veins.
https://www.patriots.com/news/game-observations-eight-takeaways-from-the-patriots-second-preseason-game-vs-the-eagles
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He will be starting sooner rather than later.
View: https://twitter.com/ByMarkDaniels/status/1824432816324534331
View: https://twitter.com/ByMarkDaniels/status/1824432816324534331
While the step up into the pocket seems like it should be an obvious thing and no big deal (after 20 years of Brady), we all know that's not the case (after 3 years of Mac). The OL may not have been great in recent years but they were basically never helped by the quarterbacks complete inability to help them out by moving within the pocket and figuring out where he can step into his throws. Definitely an encouraging sign.
Yup. After watching Brissett puke all over the field so far, I think it’s the right move.
The fact that he basically flicked that deep ball to Baker was refreshing after a few years of having to watch Mac take a javelin run up to get it there with double the hang time.
I really hope they sit Maye for most of the season. He’s 21. This is one of the worst Patriots offensive lines I’ve seen. Let him mature into the role and offense away from live cameras and fans. Brissett is bad but we knew that going in - we just need him to have a strong mind for the position (which will help Maye grow) and lead with professionalism to help a young team mature as pro athletes (from Maye to Polk to Baker).
It’s a tough call. Ideally, you’d start him, but Vederian Lowe might get his confidence/his body killed. It’s almost a disservice to put him in this situation.
What's encouraging to me is we knew he was raw and that there were things he had to fix and work on, and we can see some improvement already. That's a really good sign. He also knows that fumbled snap was on him, also a good thing.
He's said a few times, in a few different ways, that practice reps are harder because with a non-contact jersey some things that are important to his game simply aren't available and it makes him a bit slower finding solutions. But that will eventually help him. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Gotta be encouraged.
I’d wait at least a month to see how the OL situation looks and see how Brissett does. But if Maye looks like the clear best option, I don’t hesitate to start him. At some point, you have to drive the car off the lot.
I don't know enough about the Eagles to know if Maye and his OL were facing #1, #2, or #3 defensive players but it looked like a team that could put 20 points on the board. And no "deer in the headlights" Mac throws was refreshing.
Of course if they were playing cut-bait then this all means nothing but a confidence booster..
Of course if they were playing cut-bait then this all means nothing but a confidence booster..
This is where I'm at. Give him some reps and have him learn from his mistakes. Yes, the tackle situation is troubling but he doesn't seem rattled by inconsistent blocking.
Yup. I think there's also some value in just letting Maye see what NFL defenses look like from the sidelines when its the 1s playing full speed with a real game plan. Let him chew on that for a few weeks, break down some film, etc. But pretty soon you need to start learning by doing.
This team is going to be bad no matter what and I don't think it really matters whether we win 3, 4, 5, or 6 games. If Maye develops well and looks to be on a path to becoming an above average NFL starter, its a successful season no matter how many games we win. And vice versa.
Let him mature into the role without being in the role? Doesn't make much sense.
I don't mind sitting him if the coaching staff believes he's not ready. But if they feel he is, start him as soon as they feel that way.
What will be interesting is if Maye clearly outperforms Brissett for the remainder of camp, because the rest of the team will see that and you can’t just sit the guy to sit him. You play the guy who gives you the best chance to win, don’t overthink it. To that end, I do like that Mayo is signaling that they’re gonna let Maye genuinely push Brissett.
But my guess is if Brissett and Maye grade out similarly by the time we hit Labor Day (which is more likely than not IMO despite what we saw yesterday) that they’ll understandably start the year with the veteran under center. And I emphasize ‘start’ because, to MMS’ point, Maye may be in there by Halloween due to injury or a combination of him acquitting himself well in practice/meetings and Brissett scuffling.
But my guess is if Brissett and Maye grade out similarly by the time we hit Labor Day (which is more likely than not IMO despite what we saw yesterday) that they’ll understandably start the year with the veteran under center. And I emphasize ‘start’ because, to MMS’ point, Maye may be in there by Halloween due to injury or a combination of him acquitting himself well in practice/meetings and Brissett scuffling.
View: https://twitter.com/iambrianhines/status/1824418329156784340
Hadn't seen this angle yet, what a throw.
Hadn't seen this angle yet, what a throw.