Maye-day Every Day

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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You're giving Mac credit for the 8-3 record? That's one take I guess
If they went 3-8, who would you have blamed?

But no, I generally don't give any QB all of the blame or all the credit for anything, unlike a few folks around here. I think I'm pretty consistent on that front. That said, just to be clear, 15tds, 7ints, 94.4 QBR over those 11 games. It's the most important position in the game and he played better than most rookie QB's ever play during that stretch of games.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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Here's the last 11 regular season games for 2 "rookie" quarterbacks:

Player A: 201/302, 66.56%, 2,179 yards, 16tds, 12ints, 88.7 rating, 33 sacks, 7.22 Y/A, 6.49 AY/A, 9-2 record, defense gave up 169 points, created 28 turnovers
Player B: 202/310, 65.16%, 2,329 yards, 15tds. 7ints, 94.4 rating, 15 sacks, 7.51 Y/A, 7.46 AY/A, 8-3 record, defense gave up 176 points, created 22 turnovers


We give a lot of credit to Player A around here (who was actually in his 2nd season) but we give none to player B.

Which has always been my larger point. Mac got no credit when he played well, and all the blame for everything else. Fortunately, we're treating Drake Maye a bit more like we treated Tom Brady, which at least opens folks eyes up to the flaws that abound all over the roster instead of some magical "just get an average QB and you're in the playoffs" magical thinking.
 

Dollar

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He was fine in 2021, took a huge nosedive in 2022, then played okay the first couple games of 2023 before completely falling off a cliff. Can't we all just agree to put the Mac era in the past and appreciate that Drake Maye looks like the real deal? I hope to never have to watch a QB as bad as 2022/23 Mac play for the Patriots again in my lifetime. It was so bad that I was pining for Bailey Zappe for a while... man, those were dark times.
 

Al Zarilla

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Here's the last 11 regular season games for 2 "rookie" quarterbacks:

Player A: 201/302, 66.56%, 2,179 yards, 16tds, 12ints, 88.7 rating, 33 sacks, 7.22 Y/A, 6.49 AY/A, 9-2 record, defense gave up 169 points, created 28 turnovers
Player B: 202/310, 65.16%, 2,329 yards, 15tds. 7ints, 94.4 rating, 15 sacks, 7.51 Y/A, 7.46 AY/A, 8-3 record, defense gave up 176 points, created 22 turnovers


We give a lot of credit to Player A around here (who was actually in his 2nd season) but we give none to player B.

Which has always been my larger point. Mac got no credit when he played well, and all the blame for everything else. Fortunately, we're treating Drake Maye a bit more like we treated Tom Brady, which at least opens folks eyes up to the flaws that abound all over the roster instead of some magical "just get an average QB and you're in the playoffs" magical thinking.
Practically two different eras, man (when Tom came up vs. when the other guy came up). If you go back some more, TD passes equal to INT’s was considered fine.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Mac Jones was fucking terrible.
last year, sure.

first 2 years, definitely not great but hardly “fucking terrible”

I’m as high on Maye as the next guy but if Wolf and Mayo continue to replicate their 2024 “efforts” to improve and coach the team, the Pats very well may squander Maye’s potential.

is Maye a whole lot better than Mac? Yes, clearly. But could we see similar plateauing or a failure to ever ascend if he continues to be surrounded by the Demontray Jacobs, KJ Osborn et al types? Yeah I’d say so.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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He was fine in 2021, took a huge nosedive in 2022, then played okay the first couple games of 2023 before completely falling off a cliff. Can't we all just agree to put the Mac era in the past and appreciate that Drake Maye looks like the real deal? I hope to never have to watch a QB as bad as 2022/23 Mac play for the Patriots again in my lifetime. It was so bad that I was pining for Bailey Zappe for a while... man, those were dark times.
He wasn't even fine in 2021. He was pretty awful down the stretch that year, starting with that weird Buffalo game where he threw 3 passes. 5 games averaging under 200 yards a game, 6 TDs, 5 INTs, 2-3 record. Then he was dogshit against Buffalo in the playoffs.

The league figured him out starting in December 2021 and it's been all downhill for him ever since. He was the Phil Plantier of football.
 

DJnVa

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5 games averaging under 200 yards a game, 6 TDs, 5 INTs, 2-3 record. Then he was dogshit against Buffalo in the playoffs.
He definitely wasn't good down the stretch, but holding the Buffalo game against him to say "averaged under 200 yards" is pretty tough. lol
 

Dogman

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Buffalo did not punt in that playoff game. It was Jones fault for not scoring 48.

I hate Jones so this is not a defense of him. It's just funny the whitewashing of events and all the associated variables in SJH's world.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Buffalo did not punt in that playoff game. It was Jones fault for not scoring 48.

I hate Jones so this is not a defense of him. It's just funny the whitewashing of events and all the associated variables in SJH's world.
Dude. Jones fucking sucked. And I won't stand for whitewashing anything he did here.

He stunk in the Buffalo playoff game. He had plenty of company that night. BB knew before anyone since he wanted to get rid of him after year 2, but Kraft thought he knew better.
 

Dogman

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Dude. Jones fucking sucked. And I won't stand for whitewashing anything he did here.

He stunk in the Buffalo playoff game. He had plenty of company that night. BB knew before anyone since he wanted to get rid of him after year 2, but Kraft thought he knew better.
I never said he was good, just that it wasn't his fault they lost that playoff game. Buffalo did not punt in that game, so I blame the defense and Allen playing out of his damn mind.

We've known he isn't a starter in this league for a long while. But there are variables that aided his suckage that are conveniently ignored. Those variables are conveniently ignored by you regarding Mayo and Wolf too. That's what I meant by whitewashing things.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I never said he was good, just that it wasn't his fault they lost that playoff game. Buffalo did not punt in that game, so I blame the defense and Allen playing out of his damn mind.

We've known he isn't a starter in this league for a long while. But there are variables that aided his suckage that are conveniently ignored. Those variables are conveniently ignored by you regarding Mayo and Wolf too. That's what I meant by whitewashing things.
EVERY QB faces adversity. A lot of QBs overcome that adversity.

Mac Jones encountered adversity and peed down his leg.
 

Dogman

Yukon Cornelius
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Useless and meaningless platitude after useless and meaningless platitude.

Jones faced adversity.
Mayo isn't aggressive enough to chase wins like I want him to be.
Mayo and Wolf don't know how to build a culture of winning.
etc. etc.

I always remember Mrs. SJH's HOF line when I read your posts: "Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?"
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Useless platitude after useless platitude.

Jones faced adversity.
Mayo isn't aggressive enough to chase wins like I want him to be.
Mayo and Wolf don't know how to build a culture of winning.
etc. etc.

I always remember Mrs. SJH's HOF line when I read your posts: "Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time?"
Not a single one of those items is incorrect.

Especially the last one.
 

johnmd20

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Buffalo did not punt in that playoff game. It was Jones fault for not scoring 48.

I hate Jones so this is not a defense of him. It's just funny the whitewashing of events and all the associated variables in SJH's world.
It was 7-0 when Mac threw his first INT.

He played a role in letting that fire burn.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Has it been established from a credible source that BB wanted to move on from Mac after 2022 and Kraft nixed it? I know that's the running story, but if BB knew Mac was dogshit going into 2023 and didn't want him why didn't he have someone other than Bailey fucking Zappe on the roster?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Has it been established from a credible source that BB wanted to move on from Mac after 2022 and Kraft nixed it? I know that's the running story, but if BB knew Mac was dogshit going into 2023 and didn't want him why didn't he have someone other than Bailey fucking Zappe on the roster?
Zappe had played reasonably decently when called it to play in either relief or in place of Mac in 2022. He certainly played better than he did in 2023. It was a mistake on BB's part, but I assume he figured if Mac struggled again he could get by with Zappe. He was wrong.
 

cshea

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Has it been established from a credible source that BB wanted to move on from Mac after 2022 and Kraft nixed it? I know that's the running story, but if BB knew Mac was dogshit going into 2023 and didn't want him why didn't he have someone other than Bailey fucking Zappe on the roster?
I think it came from one of the Wickersham columns on ESPN about the end of the dynasty. I'll try to dig it up.

IIRC, the story was Bill wanted to move on from Mac and sign Baker Mayfield but the Kraft's were uneasy about moving on from Mac and thought hiring O'Brien would get Mac back on track.

Edit: Here's the article. It's paywalled on ESPN+

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/39290103/it-was-patriot-way

Then, during offseason planning meetings, Belichick later told people in the building, he raised the idea to the Krafts of trading quarterback Mac Jones. The Krafts had embraced Jones after he was drafted in the first round in 2021, hoping to build something close to a Brady-like relationship with him. Jones played well as a rookie under then-coordinator McDaniels, then regressed in 2022 under Belichick's patchwork offensive staff. Ownership argued against trading him, wanting to see what Jones could do with O'Brien calling plays, which this past week they denied saying through a team spokesperson. Belichick technically could have traded Jones, but he ceded to his bosses.
 
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Kenny F'ing Powers

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I never said he was good, just that it wasn't his fault they lost that playoff game.
But SJH didn't say that either.

He wasn't even fine in 2021. He was pretty awful down the stretch that year, starting with that weird Buffalo game where he threw 3 passes. 5 games averaging under 200 yards a game, 6 TDs, 5 INTs, 2-3 record. Then he was dogshit against Buffalo in the playoffs.
All he said was that Mac sucked in the playoff game. I don't think he was implying he needed to lead the offense to a 50 point game.
 

DJnVa

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This thread is about our lord and savior Drake Maye. Let's not sully it with talk of Mac Jones.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Has it been established from a credible source that BB wanted to move on from Mac after 2022 and Kraft nixed it? I know that's the running story, but if BB knew Mac was dogshit going into 2023 and didn't want him why didn't he have someone other than Bailey fucking Zappe on the roster?
No one wants to admit it, but BB was well past his peak. And as good as he was, he was never the style of coach who develops future coaches. For someone who was inarguably the best ever (none of the other names in the mix for best ever had to do it in the modern salary cap league), his coaching tree is an embarrassment. What was on display in 2021 to 2023 is BB still being great at some things (specifically, coaching defense) while being completely unable to cope with some other key aspects of the job, like filling out a coaching staff without having to resort to putting a career defensive coach in charge of the offense.

It was the right time to move on from BB, even though Kraft effed it up.
 

lexrageorge

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No one wants to admit it, but BB was well past his peak. And as good as he was, he was never the style of coach who develops future coaches. For someone who was inarguably the best ever (none of the other names in the mix for best ever had to do it in the modern salary cap league), his coaching tree is an embarrassment. What was on display in 2021 to 2023 is BB still being great at some things (specifically, coaching defense) while being completely unable to cope with some other key aspects of the job, like filling out a coaching staff without having to resort to putting a career defensive coach in charge of the offense.

It was the right time to move on from BB, even though Kraft effed it up.
The "coaching tree" stuff has been overstated. Much like many of Jimmy Johnson's former assistants (Norv Turner, anyone?), some of Belichick's assistants were indeed notable failures (McDaniels, Mangini). But Brian Daboll, Jim Schwartz, and Bill O'Brien all had successful NFL coaching careers, and Nick Saban probably would have had he not been kneecapped by Dolphins ownership (and Saban got the last laugh anyway).

The trade rumors around Mac certainly seem credible, but what's not known is how hard Bill worked to try to convince Kraft.
 

tims4wins

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The "coaching tree" stuff has been overstated. Much like many of Jimmy Johnson's former assistants (Norv Turner, anyone?), some of Belichick's assistants were indeed notable failures (McDaniels, Mangini). But Brian Daboll, Jim Schwartz, and Bill O'Brien all had successful NFL coaching careers, and Nick Saban probably would have had he not been kneecapped by Dolphins ownership (and Saban got the last laugh anyway).

The trade rumors around Mac certainly seem credible, but what's not known is how hard Bill worked to try to convince Kraft.
That, and BB develops very very very good assistants. Those guys just seem to mostly fail at being HCs. But guys like Romeo, Charlie Weis, Josh, Mangini, Daboll, BOB, Flores, multiple special teams coordinators (O'Brien, Seely).
 

Van Everyman

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To the extent that Bill also developed coaches, he stopped being able to likely because so many left for other jobs or through retirement that he almost didn’t have time to. It’s kind of a byproduct of getting old. You just don’t have the people you used to be able to rely on.

Hiring Patricia and Judge was really about hiring somebody he could trust and who knew his culture. But as was widely believed at the time, it was also unconventional to the point of irresponsible, stunted their second year QB’s development and created dysfunction within the offense.

Bill’s supposed interest in trading Mac after 2022 and Krafts saying they’d prefer to hire O’Brien and see how things worked out with Mac doesn’t seem implausible – or really unreasonable. And, lest we forget, Bill supposedly wanted to stick with Patricia as de facto OC for a second year regardless of what happened at the quarterback position. So I get why the Krafts seemed to nudge Bill in a different direction. This wasn’t like Bill was offering up an awesome alternative vision – it was “Let me sign a veteran QB and keep Matty P as playcaller.” Honestly, it all seems kind of crazy, chaotic and increasingly passive aggressive on Bill’s part.

Which seemed to continue into 2023. If O’Brien was foisted on him by the Krafts—which he may or may not have been—it sure looks like Bill responded by holding it against BOB and refusing to give him a proper staff or much in the way of roster improvements.

I was on board with giving Bill a lifetime contract. But even if you acknowledge that the Krafts meddled a bit—which was their right and doesn’t seem like it was ever in the form of an ultimatum—with even just a touch of hindsight it looks like Bill kind of descended those last two years into being frustrated, petty and passive aggressive about the whole thing. As @Eddie Jurak said, the timing was right, even if we won’t really know if the replacement was for a bit.
 

ZMart100

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Which seemed to continue into 2023. If O’Brien was foisted on him by the Krafts—which he may or may not have been—it sure looks like Bill responded by holding it against BOB and refusing to give him a proper staff or much in the way of roster improvements.
This is a new theory. BB sabotaged his own offense because he didn't like BOB. I'm not sure I buy that. I think you may need to show some work there.
 

DJnVa

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Maye has now played 8 full games, so here's how he looks pro-rated to a full season:

406/592, 68.5%, 4033 yards, 26/19 TD/INT, 88.4 passer rating, 760 rushing yards.

And that's with them not really letting him spread his wings too much yet--there's a lot more meat on the bones. If this kid simply had average OL and skill position play...
 

Number45forever

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Also, I count at least three of his INTs are totally the fault of WRs...including yesterday when Boutte handed a ball to the defender for an INT.

He's so young, too. Maye is awesome.
 

Gash Prex

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Difficult to evaluate with the train wreck up front but I thought Maye made some basic rookie mistakes today - sacks on 4th down, improper timing on the pitch and reckless runs
 

Euclis20

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Far from the reason they lost (and every week we see how it’s nearly impossible to have a functional offense when the offensive line is this bad), but this was a pretty lousy game for Maye. Got himself hurt on the opening drive (this is the worst part of his comparison to Josh Allen, but Allen is huge so it’s less of a risk), and his only really good play all game was on the free play TD. As nice as it was seeing him read the flag correctly, it’s the kind of play that literally any competent QB makes, and the real winner on that play was Douglas, who made a really nice adjustment to get back to the ball.

No interceptions for the first time since before Halloween so that’s nice, but he still seems to be good for at least one really dumb turnover each game.