Maye-day Every Day

rodderick

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If you want to take issue with the "whole year" thing, have at it. It's fair, and the "whole year" thing was hyperbolic. But the criticism of keeping him on the bench over the past three weeks or so has largely been based on how much JB has sucked, not on any substantive information about how DM has been ready to go and how Mayo/Wolf have been missing the obvious.

Happily, Christmas arrives Sunday (and I'm as excited as everyone!), and we can argue about something else for a while.
There's never "substantive information" about how these guys are progressing in practice during the season because the beat doesn't watch those practices. Everything that's reported on that front is due to someone on the inside wanting the info out there. And specifically Maye's progress against the blitz has been reported on for about two weeks now.
 
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P'tucket rhymes with...

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There's never "substantive information" about how these guys are progressing in practice during the season because the best doesn't watch those practices. Everything that's reported on that front is due to someone on the inside wanting the info out there. And specifically Maye's progress against the blitz has been reported on for about two weeks now.
So he should have been out there two weeks ago based on the reporting? And Mayo/Wolf didn't notice the progress?

I mean, the absence of substantive information isn't a nit, it's a key to the decision-making process, and we don't have it. I have no doubt DM is the best QB on the team right now, but being the "best guy" and "the guy who obviously should start" are two different things when you have to take Maye's development into account (and reasonable people can disagree on whether throwing him into the fire will accelerate or impede that progress).
 

BusRaker

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The success of Daniels and relatively decent play of the other rookies (Nix finally might have turned a corner, Williams definitely has) might also have something top do with it. It's hard not to unwrap your Christmas present when your siblings have.
 

rodderick

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So he should have been out there two weeks ago based on the reporting? And Mayo/Wolf didn't notice the progress?

I mean, the absence of substantive information isn't a nit, it's a key to the decision-making process, and we don't have it. I have no doubt DM is the best QB on the team right now, but being the "best guy" and "the guy who obviously should start" are two different things when you have to take Maye's development into account (and reasonable people can disagree on whether throwing him into the fire will accelerate or impede that progress).
It's all guess work from the perspective of fans because only the coaches actually watch him practice and how he's learning and developing day to day. If you want to take that approach then sure, but by that logic we're not equipped to comment on a whole lot regarding the team. I don't think they'd throw him out there if they thought he was mentally or physically incapable of playing in this game. So what's left for me is to trust the staff and speculate on what starting now could mean for his development (which even Mayo can't know). We'll see how it goes.
 

dynomite

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So he should have been out there two weeks ago based on the reporting? And Mayo/Wolf didn't notice the progress?

I mean, the absence of substantive information isn't a nit, it's a key to the decision-making process, and we don't have it. I have no doubt DM is the best QB on the team right now, but being the "best guy" and "the guy who obviously should start" are two different things when you have to take Maye's development into account (and reasonable people can disagree on whether throwing him into the fire will accelerate or impede that progress).
Exactly.

And it's not unprecedented for teams to stick with a veteran who is safer than a rookie/unproven QB who looks better in practice. Not sure if this is revisionist history on his part, but I always remember Belichick saying in the Brady 6 documentary that Brady had a better training camp/preseason than Bledsoe in the 2001 season but what "stopped them from making that decision" (to bench Bledsoe for Brady) was Tom's inexperience." (Again, I find it hard to believe he would have benched Bledsoe without the Mo Lewis hit... but he did bench Kosar in Cleveland so who knows)

View: https://youtu.be/o5fdhfVrg1I?t=1268
 

lexrageorge

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Exactly.

And it's not unprecedented for teams to stick with a veteran who is safer than a rookie/unproven QB who looks better in practice. Not sure if this is revisionist history on his part, but I always remember Belichick saying in the Brady 6 documentary that Brady had a better training camp/preseason than Bledsoe in the 2001 season but what "stopped them from making that decision" (to bench Bledsoe for Brady) was Tom's inexperience." (Again, I find it hard to believe he would have benched Bledsoe without the Mo Lewis hit... but he did bench Kosar in Cleveland so who knows)
There were several sources that stated the same regarding the 2001 preseason. I recall reading the same in a book about Peyton Manning of all places.

Took a bit of digging, but found the following stats from the 2001 preseason:

Bledsoe: 36-63 (57.1%), 337 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 5.35 ypa
Brady: 31-54 (57.4%), 389 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 7.2 ypa
Huard: 13-18 (72.2%), 119 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 6.6 ypa
Bishop: 2-7 (28.5%), 21 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 3 ypa

Looking at the box scores, Brady got the majority of snaps in the first game, with Huard relieving him. Bledsoe got a series at the start, and Michael Bishop threw the final passes of his NFL career at the end. In Game 2, Brady and Bledsoe split the snaps, with Huard getting a handful late.

Bledsoe got most the snaps in Game 3 as the presumptive starter; interestingly, that was the one preseason game the Pats lost, getting dusted 20-3 by the Bucs. Bledsoe and Brady then split all the snaps in Game 4; it was unusual for starters to play the 4th preseason game, so not a good omen for Bledsoe.

It was clear from the usage that Brady was the clear #2. What would have happened if Bledsoe had not gotten hurt is unknowable, but certainly possible that he could have been benched had the team been losing and Bledsoe continuing to decline.
 

tims4wins

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Exactly.

And it's not unprecedented for teams to stick with a veteran who is safer than a rookie/unproven QB who looks better in practice. Not sure if this is revisionist history on his part, but I always remember Belichick saying in the Brady 6 documentary that Brady had a better training camp/preseason than Bledsoe in the 2001 season but what "stopped them from making that decision" (to bench Bledsoe for Brady) was Tom's inexperience." (Again, I find it hard to believe he would have benched Bledsoe without the Mo Lewis hit... but he did bench Kosar in Cleveland so who knows)

View: https://youtu.be/o5fdhfVrg1I?t=1268
There were several sources that stated the same regarding the 2001 preseason. I recall reading the same in a book about Peyton Manning of all places.

Took a bit of digging, but found the following stats from the 2001 preseason:

Bledsoe: 36-63 (57.1%), 337 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 5.35 ypa
Brady: 31-54 (57.4%), 389 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 7.2 ypa
Huard: 13-18 (72.2%), 119 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 6.6 ypa
Bishop: 2-7 (28.5%), 21 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 3 ypa

Looking at the box scores, Brady got the majority of snaps in the first game, with Huard relieving him. Bledsoe got a series at the start, and Michael Bishop threw the final passes of his NFL career at the end. In Game 2, Brady and Bledsoe split the snaps, with Huard getting a handful late.

Bledsoe got most the snaps in Game 3 as the presumptive starter; interestingly, that was the one preseason game the Pats lost, getting dusted 20-3 by the Bucs. Bledsoe and Brady then split all the snaps in Game 4; it was unusual for starters to play the 4th preseason game, so not a good omen for Bledsoe.

It was clear from the usage that Brady was the clear #2. What would have happened if Bledsoe had not gotten hurt is unknowable, but certainly possible that he could have been benched had the team been losing and Bledsoe continuing to decline.
IIRC, BB went as far as saying to Kraft that they weren't starting their best QB in week 1. I think it was the contract that had them starting Drew, not Tom's lack of experience.
 

dynomite

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It was clear from the usage that Brady was the clear #2. What would have happened if Bledsoe had not gotten hurt is unknowable, but certainly possible that he could have been benched had the team been losing and Bledsoe continuing to decline.
IIRC, BB went as far as saying to Kraft that they weren't starting their best QB in week 1. I think it was the contract that had them starting Drew, not Tom's lack of experience.
It's true -- and would have been incredibly Belichick-ian. Would have made a ton of sense, but I shudder to think how the press and fans would have reacted. I STILL know people who are upset about how Bledsoe was treated.

Still, if that's the case, BB did a solid act of charades later in the season when Bledsoe came back ("we'll poll the barbers... the 4th graders..." etc.).
 

54thMA

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Looks like the team will be wearing the "Pat Patriot" helmet and uniforms on Sunday.

Not sure if that is good omen or not, we'll see.

Go get em kid.
 

Remagellan

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Looks like the team will be wearing the "Pat Patriot" helmet and uniforms on Sunday.

Not sure if that is good omen or not, we'll see.

Go get em kid.
Seconded, although I would have been happier if they did both last week. (Save the throwbacks for division games, not a team that didn't even exist when the Pats wore them as their primary uniforms.)
 

lexrageorge

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Seconded, although I would have been happier if they did both last week. (Save the throwbacks for division games, not a team that didn't even exist when the Pats wore them as their primary uniforms.)
Although there was an AFL/AFC team in Houston when the Pats had those uniforms.
 

rodderick

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It's true -- and would have been incredibly Belichick-ian. Would have made a ton of sense, but I shudder to think how the press and fans would have reacted. I STILL know people who are upset about how Bledsoe was treated.

Still, if that's the case, BB did a solid act of charades later in the season when Bledsoe came back ("we'll poll the barbers... the 4th graders..." etc.).
There's no way Bill would've benched the highest paid player in the sport who had just signed a 10 year contract to start the season, especially coming off a 5-11 year. It already took incredible balls to keep Brady in when Drew returned, but this stuff about Bill saying Brady was the best QB in camp and he actually wanted to start him is very recent, and honestly I don't believe it to be true.
 

Jimbodandy

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There's no way Bill would've benched the highest paid player in the sport who had just signed a 10 year contract to start the season, especially coming off a 5-11 year. It already took incredible balls to keep Brady in when Drew returned, but this stuff about Bill saying Brady was the best QB in camp and he actually wanted to start him is very recent, and honestly I don't believe it to be true.
I don't think that it's recent at all. I've heard that stuff going back over 20 years. A lot of people were saying after XXXVI that Brady outperformed Bledsoe in camp and preseason and weren't surprised at all that Bledsoe didn't get his job back after injury. Maybe Bill decided to keep it under his hat until recently, but that talk was out there.
 

Steve Dillard

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Is it possible that starting against the tougher Texans provides a nice excuse if he struggles. Whereas starting against a lighter Jags team would create more expectations?
 

lexrageorge

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There's no way Bill would've benched the highest paid player in the sport who had just signed a 10 year contract to start the season, especially coming off a 5-11 year. It already took incredible balls to keep Brady in when Drew returned, but this stuff about Bill saying Brady was the best QB in camp and he actually wanted to start him is very recent, and honestly I don't believe it to be true.
I read it in a book about 15 years ago.
 

dynomite

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View attachment 89907
WHAT DOES IT KNOW


There's no way Bill would've benched the highest paid player in the sport who had just signed a 10 year contract to start the season, especially coming off a 5-11 year. It already took incredible balls to keep Brady in when Drew returned, but this stuff about Bill saying Brady was the best QB in camp and he actually wanted to start him is very recent, and honestly I don't believe it to be true.
I don't think that it's recent at all. I've heard that stuff going back over 20 years. A lot of people were saying after XXXVI that Brady outperformed Bledsoe in camp and preseason and weren't surprised at all that Bledsoe didn't get his job back after injury. Maybe Bill decided to keep it under his hat until recently, but that talk was out there.
My memory is that in that Apple+ series "The Dynasty" that went off the rails this offseason, Episode 1 dealt with this issue in particular. Don't have time to rewatch this second, but my memory is:

1) Law and Milloy claim they went out to dinner with Brady early on after Bledsoe got hurt and he was talking about how he was never going back to the bench and both of them were like "Dream on rook, Bledsoe's our QB"

2) Someone (Pioli?) made clear that, when Belichick told Kraft he wanted to stick with Brady, Kraft mulled it over because he considered Bledsoe "a surrogate son," and eventually said, in essence, "Do what you think is right... but if it doesn't work..." -- in other words, Belichick's tenure was riding on Brady at that point.

Could be misremembering.

Also, in the America's Game from the 2001 season (which is available on YouTube, and these interviews with Brady, Milloy, and Vinateri were very soon after the events in discussion -- filmed maybe prior to 2002 season?) Milloy certainly doesn't talk like "It was tough when Bledsoe went down, but we knew we had a good backup in Tom."

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpq7LITJQTM
 

ShaneTrot

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Is it possible that starting against the tougher Texans provides a nice excuse if he struggles. Whereas starting against a lighter Jags team would create more expectations?
We are over-thinking it. They want some semblance of an NFL offense and Jacoby was not giving them that. AVP said in his interview this week that the Pats had people open when they threw after gaining 8 yards on the ground on first down at the end of the second quarter. I am guessing if you are a play caller taking heat because the plays you call are not executed properly, you look for new solutions.
 
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lexrageorge

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My memory is that in that Apple+ series "The Dynasty" that went off the rails this offseason, Episode 1 dealt with this issue in particular. Don't have time to rewatch this second, but my memory is:

1) Law and Milloy claim they went out to dinner with Brady early on after Bledsoe got hurt and he was talking about how he was never going back to the bench and both of them were like "Dream on rook, Bledsoe's our QB"

2) Someone (Pioli?) made clear that, when Belichick told Kraft he wanted to stick with Brady, Kraft mulled it over because he considered Bledsoe "a surrogate son," and eventually said, in essence, "Do what you think is right... but if it doesn't work..." -- in other words, Belichick's tenure was riding on Brady at that point.
Watched it for the first time just last week. Ernie Adams noted that Bledsoe was no longer reacting well to pressure, saying he looked like a "wildebeest".

There was no way Belichick was going to bench Bledsoe for Week 1 (and he didn't). But chances are better than 50/50 it would have happened by mid-season, barring an unexpected resurgence by Drew. And that's not revisionist history either.
 

dynomite

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Watched it for the first time just last week. Ernie Adams noted that Bledsoe was no longer reacting well to pressure, saying he looked like a "wildebeest".

There was no way Belichick was going to bench Bledsoe for Week 1 (and he didn't). But chances are better than 50/50 it would have happened by mid-season, barring an unexpected resurgence by Drew. And that's not revisionist history either.
Yeah, I guess we'll never know.

Certainly after the 5-11 season and Bledsoe looking terrible for those 1st two games in 2001, it wouldn't have been totally shocking. When he got hit by Mo Lewis, Bledsoe was on his way to being 5-13 in his last 18 starts with 3,700 yards and 19/15 TD/INT.

Again, as we can tell from all the back and forth on here, it's a fascinating "What If?" If Bledsoe slides or throws the ball to someone instead of getting hit by Mo Lewis -- or if Lewis just shoves him OOB -- Belichick is in a tough spot, with one of the highest paid QBs in the league performing poorly, but a deeply loyal owner and fanbase supporting him. And ironically, it's almost literal carbon copy of what happened in Cleveland with Kosar and Vinny T.

(...Is it clear I find this more interesting than the current state of the Patriots?)
 

tims4wins

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Watched it for the first time just last week. Ernie Adams noted that Bledsoe was no longer reacting well to pressure, saying he looked like a "wildebeest".

There was no way Belichick was going to bench Bledsoe for Week 1 (and he didn't). But chances are better than 50/50 it would have happened by mid-season, barring an unexpected resurgence by Drew. And that's not revisionist history either.
"With the Patriots scheduled to open the 2001 season in Cincinnati, Belichick met with Robert Kraft on the eve of the season opener. They were joined by Jonathan Kraft and Scott Pioli. Belichick briefed Kraft on the status of the team. Robert Kraft asked a lot of questions, and Belichick outlined the areas where he felt the team still needed to improve. As the meeting wound down, Belichick looked at the owner and said: 'I just want you to know if was going to start the best quarterback on the football team this weekend, I'd be starting Tom Brady. Not Drew Bledsoe."

- The Dynasty, page 179
 

BaseballJones

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I'll be at Gillette on Sunday, and I'm as excited for an in-person football game as I've been in a long time. I don't have high expectations for a win, but I do hope to see Maye really flash out there and give me hope for the future.
 

Remagellan

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I'll be at Gillette on Sunday, and I'm as excited for an in-person football game as I've been in a long time. I don't have high expectations for a win, but I do hope to see Maye really flash out there and give me hope for the future.
Health and flashes of future brilliance are more important than victories for the rest of this season. (But some wins would be nice, and if Maye shows signs of getting better with each game, they will come.)
 

cshea

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I’m expecting something like 11/23 for 120 yards and a pick. The hope is there are a few flash plays where you see the ceiling. Then week over week improvements and in Thanksgiving we can see clear progression.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I have no real expectation at all. I'm hoping we can avoid catastrophically bad or injured.

If Rhamondre was healthy, I think I would have considered rolling out the Buffallo Monday night Mac Jones game plan from 2021.
 

Justthetippett

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He's going to make some mistakes but this could also be a let down game for Houston. I wouldn't be surprised if their effort was a little flat. I'm psyched to see what he can do. Hopefully he stays aggressive and can play with some confidence. But I'm in full Bledsoe 1993 mode. Just show some signs of life.
 

DJnVa

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I have no real expectation at all. I'm hoping we can avoid catastrophically bad or injured.

If Rhamondre was healthy, I think I would have considered rolling out the Buffallo Monday night Mac Jones game plan from 2021.
I get your point, but they're starting him because they need him to push the ball into places JB wasn't. The game plan is going to have him throwing the ball. You learn nothing about him by doing the Buffalo MNF thing.
 

BusRaker

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I get your point, but they're starting him because they need him to push the ball into places JB wasn't. The game plan is going to have him throwing the ball. You learn nothing about him by doing the Buffalo MNF thing.
Well, and to extend plays with his legs behind a shitty OL
 

Eddie Jurak

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I get your point, but they're starting him because they need him to push the ball into places JB wasn't. The game plan is going to have him throwing the ball. You learn nothing about him by doing the Buffalo MNF thing.
Yeah you are right on this one. I forgot that Mac only attempted 3 passes in that game, in my errant memory I thought he was in the low to mid teens.
 

Curt S Loew

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I’m expecting something like 11/23 for 120 yards and a pick. The hope is there are a few flash plays where you see the ceiling. Then week over week improvements and in Thanksgiving we can see clear progression.
I think 120 is pretty low. Especially with Mondre out. Maye can actually throw the deep ball.

We'll see if our guys can catch one or two.
 

kartvelo

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Exactly.

And it's not unprecedented for teams to stick with a veteran who is safer than a rookie/unproven QB who looks better in practice. Not sure if this is revisionist history on his part, but I always remember Belichick saying in the Brady 6 documentary that Brady had a better training camp/preseason than Bledsoe in the 2001 season but what "stopped them from making that decision" (to bench Bledsoe for Brady) was Tom's inexperience." (Again, I find it hard to believe he would have benched Bledsoe without the Mo Lewis hit... but he did bench Kosar in Cleveland so who knows)

View: https://youtu.be/o5fdhfVrg1I?t=1268
"I don't have to be an insurance salesman."
 

SMU_Sox

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Houston isn’t a powerhouse. I was surprised reviewing them. They run a somewhat bland modern WCO. Their defense though is tough, especially their pass rush. The Pats defense should be able to at least keep these guys in check if not have an advantage on early downs. Texans really struggle to run the ball. My concern is the Patriots offense has an awful matchup. I could see this being a tighter lower scoring game where they actually pull it off 19-17 or something like that. But it is also easy to see the Texans getting turnovers and blowing the doors off the Pats. This is a lot more winnable though than what I expected after reviewing the Texans.
 

luckiestman

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Houston isn’t a powerhouse. I was surprised reviewing them. They run a somewhat bland modern WCO. Their defense though is tough, especially their pass rush. The Pats defense should be able to at least keep these guys in check if not have an advantage on early downs. Texans really struggle to run the ball. My concern is the Patriots offense has an awful matchup. I could see this being a tighter lower scoring game where they actually pull it off 19-17 or something like that. But it is also easy to see the Texans getting turnovers and blowing the doors off the Pats. This is a lot more winnable though than what I expected after reviewing the Texans.
You want a funny tidbit. I believe Zach was AFC player of the week when the Jets crushed the Texans last year.
 

Justthetippett

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Houston isn’t a powerhouse. I was surprised reviewing them. They run a somewhat bland modern WCO. Their defense though is tough, especially their pass rush. The Pats defense should be able to at least keep these guys in check if not have an advantage on early downs. Texans really struggle to run the ball. My concern is the Patriots offense has an awful matchup. I could see this being a tighter lower scoring game where they actually pull it off 19-17 or something like that. But it is also easy to see the Texans getting turnovers and blowing the doors off the Pats. This is a lot more winnable though than what I expected after reviewing the Texans.
I thought that the "bland modern WCO" was AVP's jam! Curious what this means exactly. Route concepts are predictable? Not using enough backs and TEs? Slowik got a lot of credit last year. Did the league catch up a bit?

My guess for the game is that Houston gets an early turnover or two, capitalizes and the Pats never really threaten. But that could also lead to some garbage time where Maye can show a few things and maybe break 200 yards passing. Houston 27-17.
 

DJnVa

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My guess for the game is that Houston gets an early turnover or two, capitalizes and the Pats never really threaten. But that could also lead to some garbage time where Maye can show a few things and maybe break 200 yards passing. Houston 27-17.
There's a world where some garbage time can help Maye a bit. Even garbage time is faster than preseason.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I want them to run it a lot, including on some third and longs. Take their shots with Maye on 1st and 10 (not every first and 10). Roll him out to evade the rush, but don't rely too heavily on designed runs that allow Houston's defense to tee off on him. Count on the defense to hold the Texans offense in check and hope for a few decisive plays out of Maye.
 

NortheasternPJ

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I said it in the game thread today was a success for Drake. Took some hits, made some great mid and deep throws. Now has a week of tape to watch before he goes and torches the Jags next week.
 

Cellar-Door

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He showed some of stuff, he has the tools, I also expect most of the year to be like this.. Lot of cool plays, lot of turnovers
 

Euclis20

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Definitely a lot to like. 243 yards passing, the most by a Pats QB in 16 games. 3 passing TDs, the most by a Pats QB in 22 games. Accuracy may be an issue (lots of passes, including a bunch of completions, were off target) but for the first time all year I felt like these were more missed opportunities (room to grow!) than simple bad plays with little hope of improvement. The offensive line is a war crime, and Polk looks terrible. That won't help.
 

Traut

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He also doesn't appear to be a physical and mental coward like Mac either.

Happy with what I saw today. He's still too inaccurate for real comfort but he fought through a ton of stuff and made some really good throws.
And most importantly, for the first time in 5 seasons, they had a quarterback with some pocket awareness under center.
 

Mystic Merlin

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This kid is tough, that was the best D they’ve faced and he was taking his lumps early in the game. He could’ve gone in the tank, but he plugged away.

Lots to improve, of course, as he had some misfires, one of which resulted in the early pick. But there were no obvious presnap mental busts, and I loved how he increasingly looked to throw when he scrambled as the game progressed. See, eg, the scramble throw to Henry in the second half.

The physical talent is obvious, but kid looks like a real baller.
 

Arroyoyo

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You can see in the postgame Maye is a real competitor. You can tell this shit bothers him. That’s what we want to see. Mac’s answers always felt forced and scripted, like he was only slightly bothered they lost and just wanted to get the press conference over with. Maye looks like he’s legitimately annoyed and wants to restart the game. There’s a genuine fire in there.