Matchweek 2 - Starring Sideshow Bob and Sideshow Mel

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Handball for a foul/penalty does require assessing "natural" positioning. Handball for "the can't score/create a goal from a handball" rule does not.

The foul is reviewable, but the call can only be overturned for a clear and obvious error. The scoring from a handball review isn't subject to the clear and obvious requirement.
Thanks. I didn’t understand that rule change re handball.

To me, the arm pull on Laporte does seem “clear and obvious” once you have the benefit of replay and the ability to look frame by frame. He grabs the arm and impedes him from moving toward the ball. The issue there seems less that the evidence of a foul is insufficiently clear, more that these types of fouls are typically never called in the box. But that again brings up the question of why the ref should call one clear violation that’s never called but not another.
 

scott bankheadcase

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I would argue that if a ref saw that handball on the field in real time he would call it.

I mean it’s not even a controversial call. It’s almost exactly as the rule reads in both letter and spirit. Might be a bad rule but the call is clear and obvious on the replay. Without the deflection off the hand the ball would not have ended up with Jesus.
 

SocrManiac

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I’ve said this in other threads. Given how things are going, I have a feeling I’m going to repeat it in a lot more, too.

@DrewDawg’s Tuck Rule analogy is correct, but only half of the NFL connection. I think the NFL’s inability to put a catch into words is the perfect comp. When coupling video replay with a rulebook, we need to accept that you can’t legislate every scenario.

FIFA essentially said “fuck it” with their current handball verbiage. The result is a nightmare. We shouldn’t be awarding or disallowing goals on the basis of random chance. A ball hitting an unwitting and unintentional hand is not supposed to have the impact it had today. I would like to see VAR capturing simulation, dirty play, and egregious errors. It shouldn’t overturn a goal due to the technicality of a poorly written rule.

I don’t think Spurs fans like the result. I know City fans don’t. This is going to be a recurring theme, and I think more folks are going to be left with a bad taste than a positive one. Can individual associations take action (we know FIFA won’t) to correct this before we look back at this season like we do when thinking about the NFL’s replacement refs?
 

dirtynine

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VAR is already the lead story in half of the matches. It was a factor in Brighton/West Ham today too. I don't think English fans are going to stand for this after repeated exposure. I suspect the majority of EPL fans want instant celebration and joy, inclusive of the risk of a blown call from time to time. That's a giant part of what makes the sport great. If it's technically correct at a higher rate, but entirely less fun, what's the point?

Poll on the Brighton boards after today's match is indicative of where I think most are:


Quote from the board:
Trossard’s first goal being ruled out was crushing. That hurt a lot seeing all that unbridled joy get flushed down the toilet.
I was in the yes camp, but I think it goes too far. Now on the fence.
That said there is a vocal minority of passionate defenders in the discussion as well that want everything as correct as possible. It's got to be modified, though - English fans care too much.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Another rule question (VAR relevant?).
What constitutes 'simulation'? I'm thinking (and looking through Spurs lenses) when KDB tumbles to the ground, having been untouched on a tackle by Ndombele. Could be rightly argued that the tackle attempt made KDB jump, change body shape, etc... but he didn't need to go down at all, nor embellish. Same with Otamendi in the box, where Sissoko (I think) and he touched hands. There was real contact there, but nothing like the result of Otamendi almost injuring himself falling backward. I'm sure plenty of examples the other way, as well...
 

SoxFanInCali

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Taking a poll of fans about VAR the same day they lose a goal because of it is hardly the most scientific way of getting real opinion.

I know it will cost Liverpool at some point this season, but after hearing about how lucky the Reds were all of last year, and how VAR will expose them, I am finding it funny that it's City that have been the most affected thus far. I could be quiet now so that nobody gives me crap later when it does happen to Liverpool, but let's face it, Teddy will do it either way.
 

dirtynine

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Taking a poll of fans about VAR the same day they lose a goal because of it is hardly the most scientific way of getting real opinion.
This is fair (and Brighton/WH was in fact a draw). I will say that the comments are much more about losing out on the joy of the moment than hating on the decision (which was broadly correct). This is admittedly anecdotal evidence - yet still makes me think VAR is more incompatible with EPL fans than most audiences (or at least they’ll push back harder against it than others). Larger point being that the collision of VAR and EPL is going to be different than the rollout has been in other competitions.

I did enjoy the suggestion that in-stadium fans should react silently to goals, and then cheer wildly for the eventual VAR confirmation.
 

scott bankheadcase

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I’ve said this in other threads. Given how things are going, I have a feeling I’m going to repeat it in a lot more, too.

@DrewDawg’s Tuck Rule analogy is correct, but only half of the NFL connection. I think the NFL’s inability to put a catch into words is the perfect comp. When coupling video replay with a rulebook, we need to accept that you can’t legislate every scenario.

FIFA essentially said “fuck it” with their current handball verbiage. The result is a nightmare. We shouldn’t be awarding or disallowing goals on the basis of random chance. A ball hitting an unwitting and unintentional hand is not supposed to have the impact it had today. I would like to see VAR capturing simulation, dirty play, and egregious errors. It shouldn’t overturn a goal due to the technicality of a poorly written rule.

I don’t think Spurs fans like the result. I know City fans don’t. This is going to be a recurring theme, and I think more folks are going to be left with a bad taste than a positive one. Can individual associations take action (we know FIFA won’t) to correct this before we look back at this season like we do when thinking about the NFL’s replacement refs?
I just don’t agree that this was a technicality on a poorly written rule. This was an exact scenario written into the rule in a very clear way. There’s no interpretation here in my opinion. The rule says the following act is a foul even if accidental:

A player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touches their hand/arm and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity”

It seems like they specifically meant for this situation to not be a goal. If the ref sees it on the field it’s not a goal. So we’re mad that var sees an obvious infraction?

I mean you might not like the rule but it seems like they actually did define it unlike the nfl and they specifically wanted this situation to be ruled a free kick for the opposing team.
 

Cellar-Door

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VAR is already the lead story in half of the matches. It was a factor in Brighton/West Ham today too. I don't think English fans are going to stand for this after repeated exposure. I suspect the majority of EPL fans want instant celebration and joy, inclusive of the risk of a blown call from time to time. That's a giant part of what makes the sport great. If it's technically correct at a higher rate, but entirely less fun, what's the point?

Poll on the Brighton boards after today's match is indicative of where I think most are:


Quote from the board:


That said there is a vocal minority of passionate defenders in the discussion as well that want everything as correct as possible. It's got to be modified, though - English fans care too much.
The Brighton one though was one of those where the new "don't call offside unless it's glaring" calls, the linesman was looking right at it and looked like he was going to call it but let it play on. Before VAR he calls that
 

OilCanShotTupac

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I suspect the majority of EPL fans want instant celebration and joy, inclusive of the risk of a blown call from time to time. That's a giant part of what makes the sport great. If it's technically correct at a higher rate, but entirely less fun, what's the point?
This x1000

It's a low-scoring game but a goal can come from anywhere, anytime. That keeps us on the edge of our seats. When a goal comes, it's explosive joy.

Waiting for VAR takes the piss out of that. It reminds me of what I hate hate hate about the NFL now and IMO is making it borderline unwatchable - after something happens you have to wait around for replays and a committee meeting.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I would argue that if a ref saw that handball on the field in real time he would call it.
The ref was staring right at it in text book positioning and he didn’t call it. Not a single Spurs player appealed for hand ball in the aftermath. And the reason for both is simple: As the MotD crew noted yesterday evening (some hyperbole, but the point stands) there hasn’t been a football match in the history of the planet where that call is made. Until now.

It may be the rule but the rule is poor. It turns something into an infraction that’s never been treated as one, while ignoring other ticky tacky infractions without any logical consistency.

The best analogy to the NFL is probably reviewing offensive holding. Imagine if every TD was reviewed for some ticky tacky shirt pull in the interior of the line that is technically a violation but almost never actually called in practice. Fun.
 
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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This x1000

It's a low-scoring game but a goal can come from anywhere, anytime. That keeps us on the edge of our seats. When a goal comes, it's explosive joy.

Waiting for VAR takes the piss out of that. It reminds me of what I hate hate hate about the NFL now and IMO is making it borderline unwatchable - after something happens you have to wait around for replays and a committee meeting.
Well said. Especially in a game that is so low scoring, so much of the emotional experience is about the build up of tension and then the surge of feeling (good or bad) when the ball hits the net.
 

lars10

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The ref was staring right at it in text book positioning and he didn’t call it. Not a single Spurs player appealed for hand ball in the aftermath. And the reason for both is simple: As the MotD crew noted yesterday evening (some hyperbole, but the point stands) there hasn’t been a football match in the history of the planet where that call is made. Until now.

It may be the rule but the rule is poor. It turns something into an infraction that’s never been treated as one, while ignoring other similar infractions without any logical consistency.

The best analogy to the NFL is probably reviewing offensive holding. Imagine if every TD was reviewed for some ticky tacky shirt pull in the interior of the line that is technically a violation but almost never actually called in practice. Fun.
Conversely think of all the calls that have been missed and goals scored that weren’t seen without VAR. there’s a delicate balance.. they haven’t found it yet.
 

scott bankheadcase

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The ref was staring right at it in text book positioning and he didn’t call it. Not a single Spurs player appealed for hand ball in the aftermath. And the reason for both is simple: As the MotD crew noted yesterday evening (some hyperbole, but the point stands) there hasn’t been a football match in the history of the planet where that call is made. Until now.

It may be the rule but the rule is poor. It turns something into an infraction that’s never been treated as one, while ignoring other ticky tacky infractions without any logical consistency.

The best analogy to the NFL is probably reviewing offensive holding. Imagine if every TD was reviewed for some ticky tacky shirt pull in the interior of the line that is technically a violation but almost never actually called in practice. Fun.
It wasn’t the rule until this year! I’m shocked there’s never been a match it’s been called in until the second match of the year when it became the rule.
 

DrewDawg

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The ref was staring right at it in text book positioning and he didn’t call it. Not a single Spurs player appealed for hand ball in the aftermath. And the reason for both is simple: As the MotD crew noted yesterday evening (some hyperbole, but the point stands) there hasn’t been a football match in the history of the planet where that call is made. Until now.
Do you know why?
 

jkempa

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Not a very warm welcome to the Bundesliga for Union Berlin. Down 2-0 about half an hour in, with a 3rd VARed off for incidental hand contact.

The supporters spent the first 15 minutes in silence to protest the management of their opponent, RB Leipzig (the RB doesn’t stand for “Red Bull” of course, but rather “Rasen Ball”, which means “lawn ball” because corporate sponsors aren’t allowed in team names).
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Thought it was an okay 70 minutes for Pulisic. Some nervous touches here and there. Chelsea were shot out of a cannon to open the match but the middle 50 were generally lackluster with not much in the way of a dangerous attack all around.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Awful performance by the official, capped off by that foul given on Vardy. Should've been something like 5-2 Leicester
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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So you're okay with incorrect calls as long as they're not egregious?
Yup. I’m totally happy with goals not coming back because somebody was a centimeter offside earlier in the buildup or somebody inadvertently handled the ball. The game was fine in these regards for over 100 years. Correct the massive injustices, let the really close calls stand.
 

Dernells Casket n Flagon

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Yup. I’m totally happy with goals not coming back because somebody was a centimeter offside earlier in the buildup or somebody inadvertently handled the ball. The game was fine in these regards for over 100 years. Correct the massive injustices, let the really close calls stand.
I wasn't talking about the millimeter offsides. You want the egregious calls reversed and the really close calls to stand, which is leaving out the entire grey area in the middle including visibly incorrect calls that aren't egregious.
 

scott bankheadcase

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I wasn't talking about the millimeter offsides. You want the egregious calls reversed and the really close calls to stand, which is leaving out the entire grey area in the middle including visibly incorrect calls that aren't egregious.
I think he doesn’t like the handball rule, which is fine.

But with the rule they put in place that call was clear and obvious. It basically was egregious.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I wasn't talking about the millimeter offsides. You want the egregious calls reversed and the really close calls to stand, which is leaving out the entire grey area in the middle including visibly incorrect calls that aren't egregious.
So draw a better standard. Or, better yet, give managers one challenge per half that they’ll be incentivized to only use in clear cut cases.

There are a ton of alternatives to the obviously crappy status quo that is hurting the match day experience for lots of people.
 
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I think he doesn’t like the handball rule, which is fine.

But with the rule they put in place that call was clear and obvious. It basically was egregious.
It’s really both of them, and the way they work in combination.

I agree btw that it was clearly a violation under the new rules, once VAR could be used to look frame by frame.

But even under this new handball rule, I bet that type of violation would almost never be called without VAR. Its incredibly hard to judge live whether it hits his arm, the other guy’s arm, or nobody’s arm. Refs are just going to let that situation slide.

So if you had new handball rule without VAR, it wouldn’t be that bad. And VAR as currently implemented but without the new handball rule would probably still be bad, but not quite as stupid. Yet combine them and it’s made worse.
 

teddykgb

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I think he doesn’t like the handball rule, which is fine.

But with the rule they put in place that call was clear and obvious. It basically was egregious.
What on earth are you on about? Egregious?



This has never been called handball in the history of this sport because it doesn’t matter. The new rule is aggressively stupid and combining it with VAR is going to kill the sport. Even the rule as written could arguably not apply as even Duncan Castles of all people is arguing.

To respond to the point about Liverpool earlier, I hope it does happen to them soon because it’ll take the inevitable uproar about injustice to change it. I don’t care if City end up on the wrong side of it 20 times after they change it you can’t have fans waiting to celebrate goals for “infractions” like these
 

67YAZ

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Indeed, but he created about twice as many opportunities as he muffed.

Nondescript performance for Pulisic, though Willian was equally ineffective in relief. I’m very keen to see how many opportunities Pulisic gets as well as how Lampard will rotate his wingers. For all the talk of lowered pressure this season with the transfer ban, there’s still expectations to be met - get out of the Champions League group & stay in the top-6 at bare minimum. We shall see.
 

DrewDawg

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This has never been called handball in the history of this sport because it doesn’t matter. The new rule is aggressively stupid and combining it with VAR is going to kill the sport. Even the rule as written could arguably not apply as even Duncan Castles of all people is arguing.
Oh, you're right. It *doesn't* matter. But there were complaints about goals like Llorente's last year--and like EVERY TIME something like this happens, those complaining and those changing the rules don't see think things through.

If you want them to go back to a common sense rule you need to have what happened yesterday to happen. A bad rule correctly applied will do more to get them to rethink this than anything else.
 

Kliq

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Sheffield trying to stay in the EPL with only players from the U.K. and Ireland is bananas. I’m fascinated by them.
 

Dummy Hoy

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Sheffield trying to stay in the EPL with only players from the U.K. and Ireland is bananas. I’m fascinated by them.
Sheffield isn’t a team.

It’s not an intentional strategy, just that Wilder built some pretty low budget teams and is big on giving the guys who have gotten them here the first opportunity.
 

OilCanShotTupac

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Sheffield isn’t a team.

It’s not an intentional strategy, just that Wilder built some pretty low budget teams and is big on giving the guys who have gotten them here the first opportunity.
I strongly favor that approach, both in terms of on the pitch effectiveness and equity, fairness, good feeling in the locker room, whatever you want to call it.

Fulham brought in several new guys last year, the team never jelled, and they went right back down, burning a ton of cash and alienating their fans in the process. The atmosphere was toxic at the end of last season at Crsven Cottage.

Too soon to tell but Villa might be in the same boat.

There’s got to be tremendous esprit de corps in a side that won promotion to the PL and between players and fans. I could see that team doing reunions 25+ years from now and the fans will never forget the players who got them up. Plug holes like any other side on the window but dance with the ones that brung ya FFS.
 

Kliq

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Sheffield isn’t a team.

It’s not an intentional strategy, just that Wilder built some pretty low budget teams and is big on giving the guys who have gotten them here the first opportunity.
In the context of my post, I said Sheffield was trying to stay up in the EPL. Not sure if you are aware, but since there is only ONE Sheffield team in the Premier League, so I assumed people would understand what I was talking about.

I think it would be weirder if it was intentional, like a Brexit Football team that didn't want any immigrants. In a league that is only 33 percent British, it is remarkable that a team is trying to do it without any foreign investments, the way a lot of newly promoted clubs try to stay up.
 

Dummy Hoy

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My bad- a lot of people think English football started in 1992 and don’t know or care about any more than 20 teams; I should have remembered that. But it’s nonsense were you to suggest that if City or United got relegated you’d call the other “Manchester.” You’re not the first (nor will you be the last), but it shouldn’t be that hard to call a team by their name, or one of several nicknames/abbreviations.
 

Kliq

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My bad- a lot of people think English football started in 1992 and don’t know or care about any more than 20 teams; I should have remembered that. But it’s nonsense were you to suggest that if City or United got relegated you’d call the other “Manchester.” You’re not the first (nor will you be the last), but it shouldn’t be that hard to call a team by their name, or one of several nicknames/abbreviations.
My reply was meant as sarcasm; I know you are a big Wednesday supporter, but again in the context of my post, it was very clear I was talking about Sheffield United and nobody had a problem understanding what I was talking about. You can take your stump speech somewhere else, I have read The Ball is Round too, y'know.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Daniel James lucky to not have been booked for what looked like a dive around 10' in gets booked for one another ~12 min later

edit: on replay, marginal contact there with Moutinho, need to see a replay on the first one though

Outstanding left-footed finish by Martial a couple minutes later
 
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PedroSpecialK

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Holy mother of god, what a strike by Neves.

The chance before from Neves flicked on by Jimenez was a hair from being another banger