Matchweek 19 Game Thread
- Thread starter Mighty Joe Young
- Start date
Brentford have been incredible at home outside of the Arsenal debacle, but this Liverpool team is an absolute shitshow right now. Ignoring the midfield last summer was not a second-guess situation- everybody knew it would bite hard on the ass. Nobody could have predicted how bad it would get.
If Gakpo blocks somebody for the engine room in January there won't be any CL next year.
If Gakpo blocks somebody for the engine room in January there won't be any CL next year.
I’d pretend to be mad at the refereeing or Darwin’s finishing but it would only distract from Brentford deserving to win by even more today than 2 goals.
Refereeing hasn't been much worse than I'd expect in the EPL at this point. I'm hoping to see changes with Webb in charge.
I disagree about Darwin's finishing. If he buries his early chance the entire complexion changes.
Raya distracting from an otherwise good game by collapsing on the easy balls. Have some goddamn pride and stand with the ball.
Mee actually made a really good block on that early chance. Tsimikas going near post with 80% of the goal open far post bothered me more.
https://theathletic.com/4052496/2023/01/02/jurgen-klopp-stuart-attwell-brentford-liverpool/?source=user_shared_article
If I speak I am in big trouble…
If I speak I am in big trouble…
Ugh. They got their asses beat today. Konate was not fouled, he just fouled up that play. I wish Klopp would just compliment Brentford and move along.
Co-signed. Klopp’s whining about referees is his biggest weakness.
The good news, if any, if this wasn’t the club giving up on the manager. The opening of the second half and the frustration displayed make it pretty clear these players want to succeed.
The flip side… I think they’re cooked. The core of this team has never enjoyed any rotation. They’re all a step slower, exposing their weaknesses. When they were flying all over the pitch it didn’t matter. Now the press can’t get to the ball in time defensively and when they have the ball they can’t accurately pass out of trouble. It’s a nightmare and I’m glad it isn’t my job to figure out the way back.
The good news, if any, if this wasn’t the club giving up on the manager. The opening of the second half and the frustration displayed make it pretty clear these players want to succeed.
The flip side… I think they’re cooked. The core of this team has never enjoyed any rotation. They’re all a step slower, exposing their weaknesses. When they were flying all over the pitch it didn’t matter. Now the press can’t get to the ball in time defensively and when they have the ball they can’t accurately pass out of trouble. It’s a nightmare and I’m glad it isn’t my job to figure out the way back.
FTFY.
There's also a Mane-sized hole in this side. It's not just a matter of whether the other attacking players have replaced or will replace his production. Dude is just a fucking brilliant footballer. I don't think Salah or anyone else approaches his level of see-the-whole-chessboard.
How much of the dropoff in their pressing is due to the loss of Mane? A lot, I bet.
Mané had a habit of missing sitters, but he scored the bangers. Replacing him with Darwin who can do neither has been a big difference. That said, in terms of workrate I don't think Darwin is that big of a letoff. The kid works hard.
I don't see the failure of the press as an issue with a single person. They're just slow, they aren't clicking the press on as a team they way they did. It's not like ManU under Ole where a single player would decide to press without support. It's that the primary pressure is a hair too soon for the passing lanes to be properly blocked, or the primary pressure is a hair too late allowing for better options to be played. The key is for all of the parts of the trap to snap together at the same time and it's just not even close.
The offensive side is the same. They aren't flowing forward together, the passing isn't accurate or is played a step too late or a step too early.
We've seen the system falter with the introduction of new players in the past, but even the familiar faces can't put it together right now. That's why I think it's more an issue of dead legs from five years' worth of heavy mileage.
Klopp hasn't found a mix of healthy midfielders that can play the 433. Elliot was a disaster yesterday. He blocked interchange between Salah and TAA and generally just drew bodies into otherwise useful areas. In that way, he reminded me of Altidore, wandering into the spaces his teammates needed rather than working with them to generate additional time and options. Ox is the master of blind alleys and poor final product. Fabinho's listlessness exposed a suspect VVD and limits Thiago's offensive contribution, and the system falls apart completely. TAA's defensive weaknesses are exposed while he and Robbo (or Tsimikas's cheap imitation) can't fly forward with abandon.
Klopp shifted into a 442 at times earlier this year and it showed promise. It allowed Salah to move more centrally to where he's dangerous. It also allowed for another midfield body. Gakpo's installation in the team will probably delay another attempt indefinitely, but it's something to bear in mind.
I don't think Klopp would ever try a 352 or 343 (especially given the health and effectiveness of the CBs), but VVD at his best with an effective Matip and Konate would be another intriguing possibility. Until and unless VVD figures it out, that's completely off the table regardless.
I saw a criticism of Alisson that may or may not have merit. It's difficult to knock the team's clear cut best player (especially without any firsthand knowledge), but the question was if he is marshalling the defense effectively. Has he (or VVD) dropped the ball on organization? Is that one of the key flaws right now?
The PL today is probably the most physically taxing football league in history given the intensity, the proliferation of pressing by sides up and down the table, the fixture schedule, and the weather. The age curve is really steep in that environment and almost every player falls off badly somewhere between 30-32. Liverpool not only have a ton of players in that cohort but they've also been run into the ground over the last five years and, even further, Klopp's tactics rely on having physically dominant players in the center of the pitch that can run all day and win 1-v-1 duels when the defense gets exposed. Those three factors together is a bad combination.
The biggest issues for me are that VVD looks like a shell of his former self and Fabinho seems to have declined earlier than expected. You go from having two guys in the defensive spine who were the kings of the jungle in terms of duels and physical dominance to two pretty average looking players and its going to be a huge problem. The club probably should have invested more aggressively in certain areas but I think they were banking on Fabinho having at least another couple elite years in him and VVD playing at a higher level until 32-33 like some other top level CBs have done.
FWIW, I think Nunez is going to end up fine. His problems seem psychological more than anything and if he just settles down and becomes a mediocre finisher who hits but doesn't underperform his xG numbers - a lot like Aubameyang and Aguero - he will be a top level player given how many chance he gets on the end of and how many problems he creates for the defense with his movement and physicality.
The biggest issues for me are that VVD looks like a shell of his former self and Fabinho seems to have declined earlier than expected. You go from having two guys in the defensive spine who were the kings of the jungle in terms of duels and physical dominance to two pretty average looking players and its going to be a huge problem. The club probably should have invested more aggressively in certain areas but I think they were banking on Fabinho having at least another couple elite years in him and VVD playing at a higher level until 32-33 like some other top level CBs have done.
FWIW, I think Nunez is going to end up fine. His problems seem psychological more than anything and if he just settles down and becomes a mediocre finisher who hits but doesn't underperform his xG numbers - a lot like Aubameyang and Aguero - he will be a top level player given how many chance he gets on the end of and how many problems he creates for the defense with his movement and physicality.
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There was a moment in the first half where Brentford were on the counter and Mbeumo just absolutely torched VVD and left him in the dust. Mbeumo didn't score, but it was concerning just how badly VVD was beaten in space. I wonder how much of Liverpool's strength is pushing the fullbacks up the field and leaving VVD alone in space with a lot of ground to cover, and getting away without it because VVD was such a monster defensively. If he doesn't have that pace anymore (and age and injuries would suggest it is likely he does not) it's going to lead to some ugly moments without more support.
In regards to Liverpool there was also an uncanny ability to just find goals that seems to have gone away. Liverpool have in my view always conceded here and there and flirted with some of these types of results but the overall intensity just wore everyone down and you’d see a match like yesterdays end 3-2 after Salah and Mane brought them all the way back. Just seems like they’re struggling to end up on the right side of those matches right now. I’m not sure the problems are much more than random variation although the age thing doesn’t give it much time to even out.
I mostly agree with MMS about Nunez. The weird thing about him is that he had the same criticism his first year in Portugal about not having end product. Then the next season it all sort of clicked. You could maybe see the same repeating at Liverpool unless he was just purchased after having a good run of luck himself. He’s onthe end of so much I can’t see how he doesn’t somehow become at least a decent goal scorer
I mostly agree with MMS about Nunez. The weird thing about him is that he had the same criticism his first year in Portugal about not having end product. Then the next season it all sort of clicked. You could maybe see the same repeating at Liverpool unless he was just purchased after having a good run of luck himself. He’s onthe end of so much I can’t see how he doesn’t somehow become at least a decent goal scorer
I didn't see him in Portugal, so I have more questions than anything. I'm wondering if his finishing issue was as clearly mental as it is now, and if he can crawl out from under the burden of his transfer fee this time around. It looks to me like the problem is getting worse. That shot/cross toward the end was just horrific.
Newcastle-Arsenal today. Newcastle have been a little creaky since the break. No bad results, exactly, but they played poorly in the first half of the 0-0 draw with Leeds then couldn't finish in the second half, and they were lucky to beat Bournemouth 1-0 at home in the League Cup. They did stomp Leicester, but Leicester look like they might be broken again. Callum Wilson likely returns, which will help if only by keeping poor Chris Wood on the bench.
I don't think Newcastle hold up in midfield and they end up eating their second L of the year. After today they have a five-match tour through the middle of the table that will go a long way toward determining whether they can seriously challenge for a place in Europe next year. The simultaneous nervous breakdowns of Chelsea and Liverpool are useful in that regard.
I don't think Newcastle hold up in midfield and they end up eating their second L of the year. After today they have a five-match tour through the middle of the table that will go a long way toward determining whether they can seriously challenge for a place in Europe next year. The simultaneous nervous breakdowns of Chelsea and Liverpool are useful in that regard.
There is definitely a trend toward midtable clubs having these strikers like Mbeumo, Che Adams, or Ollie Watkins that are kind of crap footballers but are crazy athletes, very physically strong and also very quick. These guys aren't the lumbering target men of old, they're duel winning, second-ball winning, channel running machines and if you don't have CBs/DMs that can compete with them athletically in open spaces its trouble.
Ten Hag going with the throwback back four of Shaw-Maguire-Lindelof-Wan Bissaka. If there is a time to do it, I guess Bournemouth at home is that time.
No idea what to expect from Arsenal-Newcastle. Both are high energy sides playing on short rest. With Jesus, ESR, and Reiss Nelson all hurt, Arsenal don't have good attacking options beyond Martinelli, Saka, and Nketiah and all three played 90 minutes against Brighton.
No idea what to expect from Arsenal-Newcastle. Both are high energy sides playing on short rest. With Jesus, ESR, and Reiss Nelson all hurt, Arsenal don't have good attacking options beyond Martinelli, Saka, and Nketiah and all three played 90 minutes against Brighton.
VVD has always been demonstrative in organizing the back line + Fab, and with the high line, I’ve always assumed he is the main organizer during open play. This was almost always perfect since VVD can read the game at a world class level.
But this skill seems to have predictably atrophied along with his own pace. He hasn’t yet adjusted to the difference in his speed. I really want to blame Pickford for this, but that probably accelerated the process a bit and deprived us of a season of peak Virg.
Kloppo has a LOT of work to do.
Granit Xhaka having to play 50 minutes on a yellow is a scary thing for Arsenal fans. Or at least it used to be.
Referee lost the plot and the players have no clue what is a yellow and what isn't.
What is happening at Goodison?
Brighton were a goal up last time i checked, now they are three up. Oh boy.
Edit, Make that 0-4 to Brighton
Brighton were a goal up last time i checked, now they are three up. Oh boy.
Edit, Make that 0-4 to Brighton
It's hard work for Newcastle, they've been a bit loose and ragged when they have the ball, which isn't all that often lately.
Lots of turnovers and Arsenal pressure. It's all Arsenal at the moment.
Is a goal coming?
Getting closer. Martinelli nearly glanced a header into the far post.
Lots of turnovers and Arsenal pressure. It's all Arsenal at the moment.
Is a goal coming?
Getting closer. Martinelli nearly glanced a header into the far post.
Baffling that neither of these incidents even got VAR reviews. The handball is one of those calls that could be given either way. I won't complain about it not being a penalty but it should at least get a review and there was no indication that happened. The shirt pull on Gabriel was so blatant and extreme that it actually yanks his shirt so far back you can't see the writing on the front and yet again no indication a VAR review even took place.
View: https://twitter.com/PoorEPLreferees/status/1610382865870589952
View: https://twitter.com/goalsreplayg/status/1610391695090122752
View: https://twitter.com/PoorEPLreferees/status/1610382865870589952
View: https://twitter.com/goalsreplayg/status/1610391695090122752
I hate complaining about refs, because that is almost always weak sauce, but what was and was not a yellow card seemed completely random, and there was a lot of nonsense in the box that didn't even get reviewed.
Whatevs. Arsenal didn’t offer much either. Reduced to begging for VAR intervention. You hate to see it.
I thought the commentator said they received the "egregious error" booth review and were cleared?
Though I admittedly have no idea what a handball is anymore. A couple years ago it seemed like it was everything - and now you have to start playing rugby to get one.
Though I admittedly have no idea what a handball is anymore. A couple years ago it seemed like it was everything - and now you have to start playing rugby to get one.
Well, I suppose Eddie Howe could have left our flanks exposed as they were in the first ten minutes or so and let Arsenal romp to a three goal victory, but he’s become too pragmatic for that. When the opposition is better sometimes you just do what you can to survive. I definitely prefer being on this end of these kinds of matches, though, given our result last time out against Leeds. The xG for the match was almost even, so I wouldn’t agree that there was anything extremely cynical about Newcastle’s approach to the match.
No it is not! See Newcastle from 15 months ago.
It's a good point and a useful reminder of the size of the job Newcastle have to stick around. They spend the next month touring the 8-15 bracket, which is where they'll need to make their hay.
Just wanted to check to make sure.. but xG is possibly the only category you could look at to say there play wasn’t cynical.. top, shots, sog, all majorly favored arsenal.. that and all the time wasting.
I was just surprised.. I expected a lot more attacking from a top side.
I was watching this game on delay. I saw the first half. Everton started brightly and had Brighton pinned back, but against the run of play Brighton scored on a counter when Patterson got turned round (sorry fletch). Everton were still on the front foot for most of the half although the Brighton attackers had it a limitless too easy in the counter. Still it was Everton 0-1 Brighton at half and Everton looked good value to at least draw level.
But I saw an email that said “Goodison erupts with fury as woeful Blues overrun by Brighton” and I figured I’d save myself the agony of watching the second half. Three Seagulls goals in the first ten minutes of the half and that was that. Fans were chanting “Sack the Board.”
That the beatdown was handed out by Brighton escaped no one’s attention- a club in our weight class over the last few seasons, but we’ve met going opposite ways. The days of Everton being the best of the rest, so that finishing 7th was known as the “Everton Cup” it was so automatic, are long long gone. I’d snap your hand off for a guaranteed 17th right now. Meanwhile Brighton have built a model organization, top to bottom. Their recruitment has been stellar, the business management sound. On the pitch they are tough and organized. We can only look longingly at them in envy and that’s a shame for a club like Everton.
Whether they fire Lampard seems almost irrelevant. He is not the solution but he is far from the only problem.
View: https://twitter.com/Freddie_Paxton/status/1610399016327737344?t=g68kxnyKfAVcvi2C72oEdQ&s=19
Strong words from Arteta. I don’t recall him being this outspoken often.
Webb has a job to do. VAR must be fixed. The overall standard needs to be raised. I think we’re at an inflection point, though, and there will be pushback on managers speaking out instead of additional clarity from PMGOL. Time will tell.
Strong words from Arteta. I don’t recall him being this outspoken often.
Webb has a job to do. VAR must be fixed. The overall standard needs to be raised. I think we’re at an inflection point, though, and there will be pushback on managers speaking out instead of additional clarity from PMGOL. Time will tell.
The handball was only scandalous insofar as nobody has any clue how that situation will be called from a game to game and incident-to-incident basis. The referee probably didn't see it very well, makes an instantaneous decision based on shit information, and then the VAR will just affirm the on-field call no matter what. But you can't really complain that much when you don't get a call like that, its just a roll of the dice.
The shirt pull/takedown on Gabriel was absolutely scandalous, I have very rarely seen a set piece pull down so blatant. There's just no argument against that being a foul and its precisely the kind of situation the on-field referee probably doesn't see well in real time with so many tightly packed bodies in the box and therefore the VAR really should be intervening. It has been said many times, but this is the classic "What the fuck is the point of VAR if it's not doing anything there?" type of situation.
I agree that we're more likely to see pushback against managers than change/improvement.
This is also honestly a huge problem. The average PL game has around 55 minutes of action, which is already far too low. It is just stupid that a team is allowed to waste enough time to cut the effective length of the game down by like 20%.
View: https://twitter.com/NYKchazza/status/1610396524097458177
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Maybe you'd be less exhausted if you spent less time policing the forum's discussions about VAR and Daryl Dike.
There are degrees. I doubt anyone would complain about blatent shirt-pulling in the penalty box being called consistently. That's the key. The ref was handing out cards for shirt pulling all over the pitch.
FWIW the Dike post was meant as a joke; appreciation for the eccentricities of the board. Just feels like we have a VAR Grievence of the Week.
Ahh, my sarcasm-meter was broken on the Dike post.
We do have a VAR Grievance of the Week debate but that's largely because the system is so shit and deserves a lot of criticism.
I'm not really sure that it evens out over a relatively small sample like 38 games.
The box before a corner is pretty much no holds barred but it’s always allowed hence no complaints.
The races have been tight enough of late that championships, key positions, and even relegation have been influenced by VAR roulette. That’s shit.