Mary Willingham is being quite contrary

Reverend

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Chuck Z said:
As much as I dislike UNC, this does beg raise the question of why the hell we make good athletes go to school in order to continue to play sports. Having said that, I'm really enjoying this thread. Carry on.
 
It's a legacy of our developmental history of educational institutions. The rise of college athletics coincided with our focus on the importance of economic competition, often in a social Darwinian context. As the university system expanded, it incorporated athletics as a key component of education to the ends of honing a competitive spirit.
 
The rest has just been a case study in path dependence; the teams and the systems perpetuate themselves. Compare to Europe which followed a different path of development. hence their club sport model independent of university.
 

IdiotKicker

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Reverend said:
It's a legacy of our developmental history of educational institutions. The rise of college athletics coincided with our focus on the importance of economic competition, often in a social Darwinian context. As the university system expanded, it incorporated athletics as a key component of education to the ends of honing a competitive spirit.
 
The rest has just been a case study in path dependence; the teams and the systems perpetuate themselves. Compare to Europe which followed a different path of development. hence their club sport model independent of university.
Yeah, and I think for much of its existence, it wasn't a major problem. I think that between the academic and financial issues now in play, the system is due for an overhaul and will probably look very different 20 years from now. Not saying college athletics won't exist, but I think they may be much more insulated from the universities than they are now.
 

DukeSox

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Reverend said:
 
It's a legacy of our developmental history of educational institutions. The rise of college athletics coincided with our focus on the importance of economic competition, often in a social Darwinian context. As the university system expanded, it incorporated athletics as a key component of education to the ends of honing a competitive spirit.
 
The rest has just been a case study in path dependence; the teams and the systems perpetuate themselves. Compare to Europe which followed a different path of development. hence their club sport model independent of university.
 
And now their economy sucks.  COINCIDENCE!?!??!?
 
 
:fonz:
 

Reverend

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Chuck Z said:
Yeah, and I think for much of its existence, it wasn't a major problem. I think that between the academic and financial issues now in play, the system is due for an overhaul and will probably look very different 20 years from now. Not saying college athletics won't exist, but I think they may be much more insulated from the universities than they are now.
 
Basically, the roads of all social problems inevitably lead back to the rise of television.
 
 
DukeSox said:
 
And now their economy sucks.  COINCIDENCE!?!??!?
 
 
:fonz:
 
Is that why we suck at a  more patient, creative sport like soccer?
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Chuck Z said:
Yeah, and I think for much of its existence, it wasn't a major problem. I think that between the academic and financial issues now in play, the system is due for an overhaul and will probably look very different 20 years from now. Not saying college athletics won't exist, but I think they may be much more insulated from the universities than they are now.
 
My dream scenario is university spin-offs.  The board of trustees remains the oversight committee of a nonprofit which controls 1 entity and is loosely affiliated with 2 others:
 
1. University of Podunk, the educational institution, remains a nonprofit under the board of trustees, enrolls students, employs teachers, oversees classes, awards degrees.  No "varsity" sports, no research.  Professors know a lot about their subject, but they know way more about the art of teaching than they do about the cutting-edge, bounds-of-human-understanding areas of their discipline.  After all, that's their sole job.  They're welcome to write in their spare time if it enhances their eminence.
 
2. University of Podunk Research Center, the grant-and-donation-funded research institution, employs researchers, solicits grants, and conducts R&D in useful arts.  Its employees (who are at-will, not tenured) do not even pretend to have an educational mission.  It pays a small licensing fee to the "legacy" university.  It holds intellectual property derived from its research, and may license that out to enterprises.  It is for-profit.  Equity ownership is TBD, likely small stakes for the parent university, any major donors, and perhaps a non-voting stake for the federal government in order to capture an ROI on its grants that prove directly economically useful.  Students at the parent university can try to get hired for research, and maybe there's a hiring preference, but you're doing work and getting paid taxable dollars for it and the people you're washing bottles for are not the people who are teaching you in classes.  PhD grads can try to get hired by the research center, or by an educational institution, but they've likely specialized in one or the other in order to get there.
 
3. University of Podunk Pandas, an association of for-profit sports clubs, who compete against other similar for-profit sports clubs.  They hire athletes, sign them to contracts, and may sell those contracts to higher-level professional teams if the players turn out to be superstars.  These entities are for-profit, and pay fixed, negotiated license fees to the parent university for the right to use the name, logo, and inevitably, the posh sports facilities that are currently on campus.  They have also negotiated one special concession from the legacy university: the athletes that it employs (for at least X length of time, TBD) all enjoy the right to go to that university and get an education after their playing days are over.  In the meantime, the association markets the shit out of the "school's" teams, to its alumni, schedules matches, agrees on rules and basically behaves as any pro-sports club team would do.  The university may own a minority stake, or they may not, but the teams can be sold to the highest bidder or even offered IPO style to alumni who want to feel a pride of ownership.
 
You'll note how the last 2 are for-profits, with university licensing and minority, non-controlling ownership stakes owned by the university.  The university can concentrate on its mission, earn a return from its "investments", and manage them at arm's-length without anyone worrying about how it was corrupting the academic mission.  Researchers are not teachers, and athletes are not students (until and unless they want to be).
 
It's about as likely to happen as Tim Draper's plan to split California into 6 states: Sounds plausible (does it?), but incredibly unlikely to happen without some dramatic, society-shifting, likely traumatic event to catalyze it.
 

jon abbey

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The above plan was basically my freshman comp research paper in college in 1984, I don't think we're much closer to it now than we were then (as you say), unfortunately. It remainss a disgusting, wildly hypocritical system, as we all know. 
 

Average Reds

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Greg29fan said:
 
Let's just say I would like to hear these things from a more credible source than Rashad.  That being said, sit him down and let him talk with Mr. Wainstein and investigate his claims - they all deserve it.
Greg29fan said:
That's not even close to true. If what Rashad said happened happened, then it's game over for the university and game over for Roy. But I want to hear it from someone else that I (and many, many others outside and inside UNC) consider to be more believable or see it in ANY of the independent investigations that have happened.
Greg29fan said:
Guess we'll find out when Mr. Wainstein issues his report given he's talked to the two major players in the AFAM department - Nyang'oro and Debbie Crowder, the department secretary - who would not make themselves available to the previous investigations due to the ongoing criminal proceedings.
Greg29fan said:
Former Tar Heels player Sean May, who said he received his degree in 2009, disagreed that the McCants' experience was the norm for players. He said he met with Wainstein, the investigator, last month.

"I hate people calling it paper classes," May said. "It makes it seem like we didn't do anything. I know work was done. I had to write 25-page papers for independent study."

May said he'd met with a number of teammates in anticipation of the story running, and talked about a statement he said was reflective of the views of teammates on the 2005 championship team other than McCants.

"By no means does what Rashad said reflect our views and experiences about North Carolina," May said. "We knew that something was coming out. But in a million years, we didn't think this was it. It's unfortunate."

The statement released to ESPN said that the players attended class and did their own academic work. It also said: "We also want to make it clear that Coach Williams and his staff operated with the highest level of ethics and integrity within their respective roles."

Also - http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/06/06/ex-unc-players-statement-on-mccants-allegations/10102253/
 
 
Now that the Wainstein report is out and is more damming than even DukeSox could have imagined, I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective.
 

DukeSox

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Ho. Lee. Shit.:
 
 
In November 2009, Ms. Reynolds and other members of the academic support program convened a meeting of the football coaches to discuss how the departure of Ms. Crowder would affect the players’ academic standing. The counselors and coaches were “painfully aware,” the report said, “that Crowder’s retirement would require the whole football program to adjust to a new reality of having to meet academic requirements with real academic work.”
 
In the meeting, two members of the football counseling staff explained to the assembled coaches that the classes “had played a large role in keeping underprepared and/or unmotivated players eligible to play.” To emphasize this point, they presented a PowerPoint demonstration in which one of the slides asked and then answered the question, “What was part of the solution in the past?”
 
“We put them in classes that met degree requirements in which … they didn’t go to class … they didn’t have to take notes, have to stay awake … they didn’t have to meet with professors … they didn’t have to pay attention or necessarily engage with the material,” the slide said. “THESE NO LONGER EXIST!”
 

Average Reds

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The saddest part is that documenting the existence of long-term academic fraud in a PowerPoint presentation doesn't even crack the top 10 most ridiculous things in this scandal.  I mean, consider this statement from Carol Folt:
 
 
Speaking to reporters Wednesday morning, Ms. Folt, the U.N.C., Chapel Hill, chancellor, said that a reason the paper class scheme thrived for so long was that it was hard for anyone to imagine that something so beyond the pale could happen at all.
 
“It was such a shock that it was hard for people to fathom,” she said.
 
It takes almost unimaginable levels of chutzpah to say that such a scandal was "hard for people to fathom" when the University has spent the better part of two years now smearing anyone willing to speak the truth about it while engaging in an active coverup of the very activity they could not fathom.
 

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Greg29fan said:
Guess we'll find out when Mr. Wainstein issues his report given he's talked to the two major players in the AFAM department - Nyang'oro and Debbie Crowder, the department secretary - who would not make themselves available to the previous investigations due to the ongoing criminal proceedings.
 
Well?