Mary Willingham is being quite contrary

[Stevie1der]

That's a rather flippant and definitive statement. Can you elaborate on why his credibility is zero? Occam's razor says he's telling the truth and has no reason to lie. You're talking about statements that could very well lead to vacating of wins and a championship that he helped win. I just can't think of any apparent reason why McCants would willingly make false and misleading comments on this.

 

[riboflav]

I agree. His transcript is pretty damning. All As in his AfAm classes but terrible grades in all his others.

 

[tims4wins]

Remember when no one believed Jose Canseco? Yeah.
 

Sounds like McCants is shitting all over UNC.  Also, he appears to have violated his own FERPA rights. 
 
His credibility is zero and his entire statement is worthless.

 

[Average Reds]

That's a rather flippant and definitive statement. Can you elaborate on why his credibility is zero? Occam's razor says he's telling the truth and has no reason to lie. You're talking about statements that could very well lead to vacating of wins and a championship that he helped win. I just can't think of any apparent reason why McCants would willingly make false and misleading comments on this.

 
Someone needs to recalibrate their sarcasm detector.  Or maybe just read back in the thread a little.
 
Edit:  Apparently more than one of you needs to do this.

 

[EvilEmpire]

That was pretty funny.

 

[Average Reds]

That was pretty funny.

 
I would have thought the line about how McCants "appears to have violated his own FERPA rights" would have been a dead giveaway, but I guess not.

 

[Greg29fan]

Mary Willingham: 1
Greg29: 0

 
Let's just say I would like to hear these things from a more credible source than Rashad.  That being said, sit him down and let him talk with Mr. Wainstein and investigate his claims - they all deserve it.

 

[DukeSox]

Who is, by your definition, more credible than the second leading scorer on a national championship winning* team?  Someone who had a more successful NBA career or something?
 
*until it's vacated

 

[Greg29fan]

Who is, by your definition, more credible than the second leading scorer on a national championship winning* team?  Someone who had a more successful NBA career or something?
 
*until it's vacated

 
Somebody who doesn't have a well-documented history of blaming Roy Williams and the University for not being in the NBA.

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

Vacating the title (and this goes to all such instances not just UNC), without "vacating" the degrees earned with such classes, seems to be unjust, no?
 
(not mcCants perhaps, as he left early, don't recall if he came back, but others who have otherwise earned//finished a degree)

 

[Greg29fan]

What does McCants have to gain here? He had every incentive NOT to come forward because it casts a negative light on him personally and because he knows all the UNC fanboys and athletes will demonize him.

 
Money from interviews, getting his name out there in his desperate attempt to get back into the league, money from the O'Bannon lawsuit which conveniently begins next week, you name it.
 
Rashad was a great player, but the guy is many, many bricks short of a full load.

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

 
Money from interviews, getting his name out there in his desperate attempt to get back into the league, money from the O'Bannon lawsuit which conveniently begins next week, you name it.
 
Rashad was a great player, but the guy is many, many bricks short of a full load.

He's certainly not the dumbest player to go to UNC. First he was an honor roll student in NH IIRC, and then he realized the mistake he made in Ms. Odom and cheated on her.

 

[Greg29fan]

He's certainly not the dumbest player to go to UNC. First he was an honor roll student in NH IIRC, and then he realized the mistake he made in Ms. Odom and cheated on her.

 
I didn't say he was dumb - by all accounts he's a very intelligent person.  He likely would have made it into UNC as a regular applicant.  But nothing is ever Rashad's fault, and his credibility is very, very sketchy. This is the same guy who once said being at UNC was like being in jail.

Gregg Doyel @GreggDoyelCBS
I don't know that Rashad McCants lied, or why he even would, but if there's one player in my decade covering UNC that could do it? He's it.

 

[Greg29fan]

Vacating the title (and this goes to all such instances not just UNC), without "vacating" the degrees earned with such classes, seems to be unjust, no?
 
(not mcCants perhaps, as he left early, don't recall if he came back, but others who have otherwise earned//finished a degree)

Rashad did not graduate

 

[cromulence]

There will never be sufficient evidence for you. You will always find a way to question it. It's kind of cute, really.

 

[Greg29fan]

There will never be sufficient evidence for you. You will always find a way to question it. It's kind of cute, really.

That's not even close to true. If what Rashad said happened happened, then it's game over for the university and game over for Roy. But I want to hear it from someone else that I (and many, many others outside and inside UNC) consider to be more believable or see it in ANY of the independent investigations that have happened.

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

 
I didn't say he was dumb - by all accounts he's a very intelligent person.  He likely would have made it into UNC as a regular applicant.  But nothing is ever Rashad's fault, and his credibility is very, very sketchy. This is the same guy who once said being at UNC was like being in jail.

Gregg Doyel @GreggDoyelCBS
I don't know that Rashad McCants lied, or why he even would, but if there's one player in my decade covering UNC that could do it? He's it.

Ok. I am failing to understand what you mean with the bricks short remark? 
 
 
 
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/few+bricks+short+of+a+load
 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=a%20few%20bricks%20shy%20of%20a%20load
 
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_brick_short_of_a_full_load
 
http://www.story-lovers.com/listsstupidsayings.html

 

[Greg29fan]

Ok. I am failing to understand what you mean with the bricks short remark? 
 
 
 
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/few+bricks+short+of+a+load
 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=a%20few%20bricks%20shy%20of%20a%20load
 
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one_brick_short_of_a_full_load
 
http://www.story-lovers.com/listsstupidsayings.html

He's crazy

 

[DukeSox]

That's not even close to true. If what Rashad said happened happened, then it's game over for the university and game over for Roy. But I want to hear it from someone else that I (and many, many others outside and inside UNC) consider to be more believable or see it in ANY of the independent investigations that have happened.

So if the fake classes he's talking about didn't exist why is that AFAM prof going to jail?

 

[DJnVa]

 
Somebody who doesn't have a well-documented history of blaming Roy Williams and the University for not being in the NBA.

 
So, the fact that he pretty much aced the classes in question and didn't manage higher than a C anywhere else means....?

 

[Greg29fan]

So if the fake classes he's talking about didn't exist why is that AFAM prof going to jail?

They were supposed to meet as lecture classes and Nyang'oro, sans permission, changed them to independent study classes where they didn't meet and the only requirement for passing them was a paper. Since he was paid to teach a lecture class, that's fraud or "obtaining property under false pretenses."

 

[Old Fart Tree]

I think Greg29fan is right in implying that this was the act of a single rogue professor rather than an institutional conspiracy to maximize the value of the UNC Athletics brand at the expense of educational value and integrity.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

... I mean, it looks fucking ridiculous when you put it in print, right?

 

[Greg29fan]

I think Greg29fan is right in implying that this was the act of a single rogue professor rather than an institutional conspiracy to maximize the value of the UNC Athletics brand at the expense of educational value and integrity.

I didn't say that either. DukeSox asked why Dr. Nyang'oro was going to jail. I simply explained why.

 

[DukeSox]

They were supposed to meet as lecture classes and Nyang'oro, sans permission, changed them to independent study classes where they didn't meet and the only requirement for passing them was a paper. Since he was paid to teach a lecture class, that's fraud or "obtaining property under false pretenses."

So there were fake classes.
 
And Rashad said he took them.  Seems credible.

 

[Greg29fan]

They were not fake. They were independent study classes that did not meet and required one paper for a grade. They exist (or did) throughout every department on campus.

I have no doubt he took them. There were several AFAM majors on the 05 team.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

I didn't say that either. DukeSox asked why Dr. Nyang'oro was going to jail. I simply explained why.

 
Oh. OK. So it *was* an institutional conspiracy to maximize the value of the UNC Athletics brand at the expense of educational value and integrity?

 

[Greg29fan]

Oh. OK. So it *was* an institutional conspiracy to maximize the value of the UNC Athletics brand at the expense of educational value and integrity?

Guess we'll find out when Mr. Wainstein issues his report given he's talked to the two major players in the AFAM department - Nyang'oro and Debbie Crowder, the department secretary - who would not make themselves available to the previous investigations due to the ongoing criminal proceedings.

 

[Greg29fan]

Former Tar Heels player Sean May, who said he received his degree in 2009, disagreed that the McCants' experience was the norm for players. He said he met with Wainstein, the investigator, last month.

"I hate people calling it paper classes," May said. "It makes it seem like we didn't do anything. I know work was done. I had to write 25-page papers for independent study."

May said he'd met with a number of teammates in anticipation of the story running, and talked about a statement he said was reflective of the views of teammates on the 2005 championship team other than McCants.

"By no means does what Rashad said reflect our views and experiences about North Carolina," May said. "We knew that something was coming out. But in a million years, we didn't think this was it. It's unfortunate."

The statement released to ESPN said that the players attended class and did their own academic work. It also said: "We also want to make it clear that Coach Williams and his staff operated with the highest level of ethics and integrity within their respective roles."

Also - http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/06/06/ex-unc-players-statement-on-mccants-allegations/10102253/

 

[Cellar-Door]

Former Tar Heels player Sean May, who said he received his degree in 2009, disagreed that the McCants' experience was the norm for players. He said he met with Wainstein, the investigator, last month.

"I hate people calling it paper classes," May said. "It makes it seem like we didn't do anything. I know work was done. I had to write 25-page papers for independent study."

May said he'd met with a number of teammates in anticipation of the story running, and talked about a statement he said was reflective of the views of teammates on the 2005 championship team other than McCants.

"By no means does what Rashad said reflect our views and experiences about North Carolina," May said. "We knew that something was coming out. But in a million years, we didn't think this was it. It's unfortunate."

The statement released to ESPN said that the players attended class and did their own academic work. It also said: "We also want to make it clear that Coach Williams and his staff operated with the highest level of ethics and integrity within their respective roles."

Also - http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/06/06/ex-unc-players-statement-on-mccants-allegations/10102253/

I'd love to see their transcripts.
The fact that McCants and Peppers both had transcripts loaded with terrible grades everywhere except for the AFAM "Independent study" courses where they magically pulled an A most of the time makes me think those would be interesting transcripts to see.

 

[Greg29fan]

Just wanted to make sure both sides are represented

 

[DLew On Roids]

I'm really not sure what to think about what probably went on with McCants during his time in Chapel Hill.  I was an obsessive about Carolina basketball at the time (I lived in Chapel Hill from 1997-2004, took graduate classes there, my wife got a degree there) and McCants was absolutely considered an oddball both around the team and on campus.  He flirted with leaving for the NBA after his sophomore year and the reaction was mixed between thinking it would be a career-killing Joe Forte move and that it would be addition by subtraction.  So I'm inclined to think this is more rantings of a crazy person.
 
However, as someone who loves UNC as an institution, I'm disgusted with what's come out over the past few years.  Letting athletes off with easy classes and majors happens everywhere; just check and see how many Duke basketball players "major" in sociology.  But the academic fraud perpetrated at UNC has hurt the university at its core.  And what he's alleging is right in line with what was documented with other athletes in the years immediately following McCants's time there.  So in my frustration and anger at what happened, I'm also inclined to believe this was happening.  Jackie Manuel majored in AFAM, which seemed oddly and impressively academically inclined for a basketball player at the time.  Ever since the scandal broke, I've assumed chose AFAM because it was a way to avoid classes, and his time at Carolina matched McCants's.
 
But bringing it back to McCants, if there were one player from Roy Williams's entire tenure who I'd think were psychologically off enough to research the scandal and concoct a story to bring attention to himself, it'd be McCants.  I'd also think he'd be one of the few players to break ranks and come clean, because he seems to think he was mistreated in Chapel Hill.  
 
On balance, I suspect his allegations are largely accurate, though he may be exaggerating certain things because that's what Rashad McCants does.  Even if exaggerated, if someone took the time to investigate--which, given the number of years it's been since the events, I doubt will happen--there's probably enough to damn the title team.  Which is strangely ironic, since I remember before that season, I thought Rashad's erratic behavior would kick their national championship hopes.  I just didn't think it'd take nine years.

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

I'm still inclined to believe that UNC is going down, but Rashad clearly has an axe to grind. He's been calling out Roy Williams for years now.
 
http://www.frumpzilla.com/frumpzilla_site/articles/rashad-mccants-also-not-a-fan-of-roy-williams/

 

[DukeSox]

The Raleigh (N.C.) News & Observer reported Saturday evening that McCants was not the only member of the 2005 team who relied on the bogus classes. The newspaper said that data it had obtained show that "five members of that team, including at least four key players, accounted for a combined 39 enrollments in classes that have been identified as confirmed or suspected lecture classes that never met." No player earned less than a B in any of the enrollments, according to the report.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11047963/north-carolina-coach-roy-williams-disbelief-rashad-mccants-claims-academic-fraud

 

[DLew On Roids]

Jackie Manuel.  Book it.
 
Though I wouldn't be surprised if Williams were enough of a naive rube that he didn't realize it was going on.  He's always been a true believer.  Sometimes I wish they'd brought back Eddie Fogler instead.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

My general attitude in situations like this is that where there's smoke, fire, charred objects, the smell of things burning, clear indications of combustion, things literally oxidizing in front of me, and a blazing conflagration in plain sight, there's probably fire.

 

[riboflav]

Starting to look like Roy Williams is a moral hypocrite. 
 
EDIT: Pretty damning article. Dukesox doesn't link to it but here it is - http://www.thestate.com/2014/06/07/3493544/the-news-observer-raleigh-nc-dan.html

 

[DukeSox]

My general attitude in situations like this is that where there's smoke, fire, charred objects, the smell of things burning, clear indications of combustion, things literally oxidizing in front of me, and a blazing conflagration in plain sight, there's probably fire.

Awesome.

 

[Reverend]

 
Someone needs to recalibrate their sarcasm detector.  Or maybe just read back in the thread a little.
 
Edit:  Apparently more than one of you needs to do this.

 
Bagged me too. In fairness, though, the episodic nature of this thread makes it difficult to remember the greatness of the truculence with which some defend their college sports programs.
 
 

 
Let's just say I would like to hear these things from a more credible source than Rashad.  That being said, sit him down and let him talk with Mr. Wainstein and investigate his claims - they all deserve it.

 
Point: Average Reds. Invoking his violation of his own FERPA rights was brilliant, by the way.
 
 

I didn't say that either. DukeSox asked why Dr. Nyang'oro was going to jail. I simply explained why.

 

They were not fake. They were independent study classes that did not meet and required one paper for a grade. They exist (or did) throughout every department on campus.

I have no doubt he took them. There were several AFAM majors on the 05 team.

 
OK, would you prefer it is DukeSox used his language more precisely and said there were "fraudulent" classes, and stopped calling them "fake"? Because the Martin report concedes that there were fraudulent classes and not all were taught by Dr. Nyang'oro.
 
Indeed, the reason he's the only guy going to jail is because they literally don't know who was allegedly teaching the other courses or who was making the unauthorized grade changes. Dr. N is the only one apparently dumb enough to slap his name on some of the fraudulent courses--probably to reduce his work load.
 
 

The Raleigh (N.C.) News & Observer reported Saturday evening that McCants was not the only member of the 2005 team who relied on the bogus classes. The newspaper said that data it had obtained show that "five members of that team, including at least four key players, accounted for a combined 39 enrollments in classes that have been identified as confirmed or suspected lecture classes that never met." No player earned less than a B in any of the enrollments, according to the report.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11047963/north-carolina-coach-roy-williams-disbelief-rashad-mccants-claims-academic-fraud

 
:bill-throwing:
 
FERPA violation.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

I think Greg29fan is right in implying that this was the act of a single rogue professor rather than an institutional conspiracy to maximize the value of the UNC Athletics brand at the expense of educational value and integrity.

 
There was a second professor holding classes on the grassy knoll.

 

[OCST]

 
CHAPEL HILL: North Carolina coach Roy Williams during an interview on Saturday with ESPN again refuted the allegations that Rashad McCants made in an interview with the same network.
 
During a 35-minute interview with Jay Bilas – with Williams dressed in a suit, surrounded by former players in a show of support – Williams said he was in “disbelief” over McCants’ accusations, and insisted that the players he has coached have done their own school work.

 

Williams, during his interview with ESPN, indicated that he didn’t know the classes were being abused, or that they featured little to no supervision or instruction.
 
“I thought that meant that a class was on paper but it didn’t really exist, and then come to find out people are using that terminology ‘paper classes’ to signify independent study courses that you do papers,” Williams said. “… I’ve been told by people that some of those are really, really good.
“It shows a lot of discipline because you’re self-directed. If my players took independent study courses that were offered by this university for a reason that the university thought they were valuable, my players, if they took those courses, did the work, and I’m proud of that part of it.”
 
McCants alleged that Williams was behind an idea to manipulate his transcript, replacing a class he failed with a summer course he passed so that he could remain in good academic standing. McCants told ESPN that Williams said, “We’re going to be able to change a class from, you know, your summer session class and swap it out with the class that you failed, just so the GPA could reflect that you are in good standing.”
 
Williams denied that allegation.
 
“I don’t have any idea what ‘swapping out’ would be,” Williams said. “That’s not in my vocabulary. You can’t take a course and get another one thrown out at the college level. All of your courses count. So I know I would not have that kind of conversation. I don’t know what swapping out means, and I have never suggested that anybody take any course.”

 


Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/06/08/4962824/unc-coach-roy-williams-offers.html#storylink=cpy
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/06/08/4962824/unc-coach-roy-williams-offers.html#.U5Yl03Z0a70
 

 
Roy Williams is full of shit.  He may have plausible deniability about the details of any one given course or student, but if he's trying to pass himself off as someone who had NO IDEA! that his players, generally, were skating, then he's just not credible.

 

[Reverend]

McCants alleged that Williams was behind an idea to manipulate his transcript, replacing a class he failed with a summer course he passed so that he could remain in good academic standing. McCants told ESPN that Williams said, “We’re going to be able to change a class from, you know, your summer session class and swap it out with the class that you failed, just so the GPA could reflect that you are in good standing.”
 
Williams denied that allegation.
 
“I don’t have any idea what ‘swapping out’ would be,” Williams said. “That’s not in my vocabulary. You can’t take a course and get another one thrown out at the college level. All of your courses count. So I know I would not have that kind of conversation. I don’t know what swapping out means, and I have never suggested that anybody take any course.”
 

 
It's not clear what McCants is talking about here. I know that at some schools, you can retake a class you failed and then your GPA reflects the new grade, not the failed grade; in some cases, students will beg for an F instead of a D so they can take it again with another instructor. I don't know if that's what happened there, but that wouldn't be misconduct in anyway.
 
It would be pretty hilarious if that's what happened and Williams is denying it so forcefully.
 
 

Roy Williams is full of shit.  He may have plausible deniability about the details of any one given course or student, but if he's trying to pass himself off as someone who had NO IDEA! that his players, generally, were skating, then he's just not credible.

 
There are Division I football teams that do a better job of monitoring the classes the program's students take and their attendance than Williams was apparently capable of with his basketball roster.

 

[OCST]

 

There are Division I football teams that do a better job of monitoring the classes the program's students take and their attendance than Williams was apparently capable of with his basketball roster.

 
Well, yeah.  It's the old question: is it worse if he knew, or worse if he didn't know? 
 
Seeing as how the whole season (and tournament bids, and millions of dollars) can come crashing down if even one key player is ruled academically ineligible, you think that, maybe, as the top guy, he'd take a passing interest in what courses his players were involved in, and how they were doing?  What kind of ineptitude is that, if he didn't know?

 

[Reverend]

 
Well, yeah.  It's the old question: is it worse if he knew, or worse if he didn't know? 
 
Seeing as how the whole season (and tournament bids, and millions of dollars) can come crashing down if even one key player is ruled academically ineligible, you think that, maybe, as the top guy, he'd take a passing interest in what courses his players were involved in, and how they were doing?  What kind of ineptitude is that, if he didn't know?

 
Exactly. But at the same time, I mean, maybe there wasn't enough money in the budget to track... how many players are on a Div I basketball roster?  :c070:

 

[DukeSox]

SiaLBS

 

[Average Reds]

Roy Williams is absolutely full of shit. When I was at BC, I had orientation with a hoops player (Andrew Bryant) and asked him what classes he was taking. His response?

"I don't know - whatever coach (Al Skinner) signed me up for"

These D1 coaches control everything about their team so Roy's "aww shucks" routine is falling on deaf ears for me.

 
It's been this way for at least 30-40 years at big time programs.
 
Williams may believe he has plausible deniability here and he may be right.  Doesn't mean he's not full of it.

 

[Reverend]

Sadly, it's not just big time programs. It's not all programs, but it's some really shitty ones too, which is sorta pathetic.

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Sadly, it's not just big time programs. It's not all programs, but it's some really shitty ones too, which is sorta pathetic.

 
Indeed. I lived in a hall my Freshman year at Ohio with mostly football players, including my roommate. They were given "Priority Scheduling" before each semester so that they could find spots in classes that worked with their schedules; of course, the options they were given comprised maybe a fifth of classes actually available. My roommate at the time, the scout team quarterback with no real potential to ever take a snap in a game, was steered away from majoring in Journalism and into Sports Administration. If it's happening at Ohio University, it's happening everywhere.

 

[OCST]

Sadly, it's not just big time programs. It's not all programs, but it's some really shitty ones too, which is sorta pathetic.

 
My wife was an RA at Pitt, and got asked to provide "tutoring" (read: doing work for) football players.

 

[IdiotKicker]

As much as I dislike UNC, this does beg the question of why the hell we make good athletes go to school in order to continue to play sports. Having said that, I'm really enjoying this thread. Carry on.