Marrero traded to ARI

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
Dope
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
34,440
Haiku
Marrero's golden glove never overcame his noodle bat. Waste of a first-round pick.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,017
Oregon
I was thinking about him the other day, and decided that if he played in the days where teams kept only 9-10 pitchers, his glove would keep him on a team as a 25th man. Ralph Houk would have loved the guy
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
Not the move I would have made, give the defensive shortcomings of the left-side infield. But good for Brockholt!
 

Hank Scorpio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 1, 2013
6,915
Salem, NH
Is there a time frame on how long a team can not carry 40 players on the 40 man roster? If there's no immediate requirement to add a player, then I don't see the rush to add a guy like DeJesus. Maybe if they REALLY want Poyner on the roster, but I'm not sure DD feels an urgency to have him ready to go on opening day. Waiting, if it's an option, gives them a little flexibility down the line.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Is there a time frame on how long a team can not carry 40 players on the 40 man roster? If there's no immediate requirement to add a player, then I don't see the rush to add a guy like DeJesus. Maybe if they REALLY want Poyner on the roster, but I'm not sure DD feels an urgency to have him ready to go on opening day. Waiting, if it's an option, gives them a little flexibility down the line.
They can leave the spot open as long as they want. 40 players is not a requirement for the roster, it's only the maximum. They could carry 30 players on the 40-man roster if they wanted to.

I expect they'll keep this spot open at least a few days and use it only if they feel it necessary to add someone like Poyner or Walden (to start the fourth game) to start the season.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
I was thinking about him the other day, and decided that if he played in the days where teams kept only 9-10 pitchers, his glove would keep him on a team as a 25th man. Ralph Houk would have loved the guy
40 years ago he could have been Mark Belanger.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,405
Kind of a weird landing spot - doesn't Arizona already have Owings, Marte, and Ahmed to cover the middle infield on a given day? I mean, I guess he was basically free, but I'm a little surprised there wasn't a team who had a more obvious need for him.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
Kind of a weird landing spot - doesn't Arizona already have Owings, Marte, and Ahmed to cover the middle infield on a given day? I mean, I guess he was basically free, but I'm a little surprised there wasn't a team who had a more obvious need for him.
Gammons seems to think he's a good fit, at least for the time being. Owings is expected to play a lot of RF while Steven Souza is on the DL.

 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,027
They can leave the spot open as long as they want. 40 players is not a requirement for the roster, it's only the maximum. They could carry 30 players on the 40-man roster if they wanted to.
Does Derek Jeter know this?
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
To be fair I think MM's point was that, in the sixties, SS was a glove first , if not out and out glove only position. So a guy like Marrero would have been a starter on half the teams in baseball.
Yes. Belanger had an 18-year career. He got MVP votes in 3 different seasons, one of which - 1973 - he had an OPS+ of 61. In 1979, with his career winding down, he managed to get into 101 games for the AL-pennant-winning Orioles, while slashing a slightly less than robust .167/.273/.217 (OPS+ of 36).

Yeah, he was a glove only guy. And valued highly for it.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
11,482
Yes. Belanger had an 18-year career. He got MVP votes in 3 different seasons, one of which - 1973 - he had an OPS+ of 61. In 1979, with his career winding down, he managed to get into 101 games for the AL-pennant-winning Orioles, while slashing a slightly less than robust .167/.273/.217 (OPS+ of 36).

Yeah, he was a glove only guy. And valued highly for it.
At a time when measuring comparative defensive value with stats was not really possible, and there were far more balls being put into play, increasing the actual value of defensive players. I could easily see how good SS defense could be overvalued in that sort of environment.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
For
Yes. Belanger had an 18-year career. He got MVP votes in 3 different seasons, one of which - 1973 - he had an OPS+ of 61. In 1979, with his career winding down, he managed to get into 101 games for the AL-pennant-winning Orioles, while slashing a slightly less than robust .167/.273/.217 (OPS+ of 36).

Yeah, he was a glove only guy. And valued highly for it.
For further reference .. this guy ( a former Red Sock) had a HOF career as an ultimate small ball SS. He cracked an ops+ of 100 once. For a career it was at 86.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/aparilu01.shtml

Mind you , the HOF case was mainly built on the 506 career SBs.
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
16,722
Aparicio and Belanger are 2 of the greatest defensive SS of all time. Marrero is never going to be at that level defensively.

If you want to say Ed Brinkman or Bud Harrelson or some other longtime all-glove, no-bat SS, sure.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
For


For further reference .. this guy ( a former Red Sock) had a HOF career as an ultimate small ball SS. He cracked an ops+ of 100 once. For a career it was at 86.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/aparilu01.shtml

Mind you , the HOF case was mainly built on the 506 career SBs.
One of the first sabermetric things I read was Bill James writing why Wade Boggs should bat lead off. He wrote about how the conventional knowledge was that Aparcio was the best leadoff guy in MLB, despite being of negative value as an offensive player.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
Aparicio and Belanger are 2 of the greatest defensive SS of all time. Marrero is never going to be at that level defensively.

If you want to say Ed Brinkman or Bud Harrelson or some other longtime all-glove, no-bat SS, sure.
I don’t think I (or MM) was implying that Marrero was in their league. Just that he has the skill set required to be an MLB regular in the sixties. Sadly for him he has arrived 50 years too late.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
At a time when measuring comparative defensive value with stats was not really possible, and there were far more balls being put into play, increasing the actual value of defensive players. I could easily see how good SS defense could be overvalued in that sort of environment.
For whatever reason, the 60s and 70s were definitely a golden age for all glove-no bat shortstops. The MLB-wide wRC+ for the position between 1960 and 1979 was a ghastly 77. For the past twenty years it's been 10 points higher, at 87.

It's interesting to compare this change with the C position. Mean wRC+ for catchers 1960-79 was 90; for 1998-2017 it was 88. Virtually no change. Today catchers and shortstops hit about the same; in the 60s and 70s catchers hit much better (though still well below average).
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,240
Cards beat Sox in 67 with Dal Maxvill and his 67 OPS+ (227 /297 /.279) at SS.

But Tigers beat Cards in 68 in part by moving Mickey Stanley and his regular season102 OPS+ from CF to SS for WS to replace Ray Oyler (OPS +20 in 247 PAs.) 135 .213 .186 ) , Tom Matchick (OPS+60 in 244.) and Dick Tracewski (43 OPS+). Let them get all 3 of Horton, Kaline and Northrup into the OF.


Chris Speier was the first SS I remember being considered an offensive threat at the time. Looking at the numbers, not so much.

EDIT:The brinkman mention below reminds me that Toby Harrah was another. He was real.



.
.
 
Last edited:

Dahabenzapple2

Mr. McGuire / Axl's Counter
SoSH Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,926
Wayne, NJ
Ed Brinkman hit .203/.259/.279 for Detroit in 1972 for an OPS+ of 58. ZERO stolen bases, 6 HR and under 50 runs scored or RBI in 156 games with 27 XBH's and finished 9th in the MVP voting!!!
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
For whatever reason, the 60s and 70s were definitely a golden age for all glove-no bat shortstops. The MLB-wide wRC+ for the position between 1960 and 1979 was a ghastly 77. For the past twenty years it's been 10 points higher, at 87....
This, despite the fact that the past 20 years include most of Rey Ordonez's career!
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,240
Ed Brinkman hit .203/.259/.279 for Detroit in 1972 for an OPS+ of 58. ZERO stolen bases, 6 HR and under 50 runs scored or RBI in 156 games with 27 XBH's and finished 9th in the MVP voting!!!

Ed Brinkman was Ted Williams' pet project when he managed the Senators. Brinkman went from 48 and 44 OPS+ in 67 and 68, to 89 and 80 with Ted teaching him to hit; then forgot it all when he was traded to Detroit.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
Aparicio and Belanger are 2 of the greatest defensive SS of all time. Marrero is never going to be at that level defensively.

If you want to say Ed Brinkman or Bud Harrelson or some other longtime all-glove, no-bat SS, sure.
Bringing up defense is another interesting facet of this discussion. Now - I'm not trying to suggest Aparicio and Belanger weren't terrific defensive SSs. Merely that defensive reputation was everything and pretty much the only defensive metric was errors. Bill James did a neat study in one of the early abstracts when commenting on a Gold Glove "race" between Cal Ripken (may have been Ozzie) and Larry Bowa. Many old time journalists claimed Bowa was the superior fielder because he made so few errors. On the flip side, Ripken's range factor had about 100 more chances than Bowa. Even after factoring out environment stuff it was pretty clear that, even by such crude tools Ripken was - by far -the better fielder. One suspects that in Belanger's day slick fielding + a low error count = Gold Glove. (Just checked Aparicio - he made a LOT of errors in his first few years in the league)

James claimed the the error bias was a holdover from the deadball era when (due to bad fields and primitive gloves) error totals were astronomical compared to modern baseball.
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
16,722
Belanger made plenty of errors too. He had 3 seasons of 22 or more errors.

He and Aparicio both had sterling reputations despite the errors because everyone could see how much ground they could cover and how good they were at turning DPs. They stood out even in the era of the all-glove SS.
 

JimBoSox9

will you be my friend?
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
16,667
Mid-surburbia
For whatever reason, the 60s and 70s were definitely a golden age for all glove-no bat shortstops. The MLB-wide wRC+ for the position between 1960 and 1979 was a ghastly 77. For the past twenty years it's been 10 points higher, at 87.
Probably the same source as the driver of proliferating slap-n-swipe offenses during the same time: Astroturf, baby!
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
Cards beat Sox in 67 with Dal Maxvill and his 67 OPS+ (227 /297 /.279) at SS.

But Tigers beat Cards in 68 in part by moving Mickey Stanley and his regular season102 OPS+ from CF to SS for WS to replace Ray Oyler (OPS +20 in 247 PAs.) 135 .213 .186 ) , Tom Matchick (OPS+60 in 244.) and Dick Tracewski (43 OPS+). Let them get all 3 of Horton, Kaline and Northrup into the OF.


Chris Speier was the first SS I remember being considered an offensive threat at the time. Looking at the numbers, not so much.

EDIT:The brinkman mention below reminds me that Toby Harrah was another. He was real.



.
.
Ahem .. Rico Petrocelli says hi!
 

Dahabenzapple2

Mr. McGuire / Axl's Counter
SoSH Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,926
Wayne, NJ
Ahem .. Rico Petrocelli says hi!
Another fun stat - Rico had 10 WAR in 1969 - the highest in the AL - and finished 7th in the MVP voting

He was one of my childhood favorites - it sure is a shame he declined so quickly - plus 1969 is the only year he hit for over .270 (he hit .297 with the then legendary 40 homers) but even as a .260 type hitter with power, and even switching to third base, if he didn't decline drastically after the 1971 season at 28, it looked like a big time career.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
Another fun stat - Rico had 10 WAR in 1969 - the highest in the AL - and finished 7th in the MVP voting

He was one of my childhood favorites - it sure is a shame he declined so quickly - plus 1969 is the only year he hit for over .270 (he hit .297 with the then legendary 40 homers) but even as a .260 type hitter with power, and even switching to third base, if he didn't decline drastically after the 1971 season at 28, it looked like a big time career.
IIRC he moved to third to make way for the aforementioned Aparicio. Not to mention to fix the George Scott 3b "experiment"

They sure jumped though hoops to get Billy Coniglaro into the lineup - Moving gold glovers Yastrzemski and Scott out of position.
 

Mike F

Mayor of Fort Myers
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 13, 2000
2,068
I don’t think I (or MM) was implying that Marrero was in their league. Just that he has the skill set required to be an MLB regular in the sixties. Sadly for him he has arrived 50 years too late.
Not so sadly if one remembers that players from the 60s & 70s are today a lot closer to their expiration date than today's players are.