From my memory, I don't recall pitchers who were later diagnosed with TOS, wincing in pain during their starts.
Yes, that poor body language indicates to me as well that the problem is mental, or at least partially mental. I mean shouldn't he show some sign of physical discomfort if that's the problem?All the footage of Fultz I have seen missing shots has him immediately dipping his head despondently, not checking his fingers, shaking his hand or shoulder or anything like that. Add in the mystery knee ailment in college, and I personally think this is a predominantly mental issue going on. Is ToS something one can just develop at age 20?
And if he was shaking his hand or complaining that his fingers were numb people would blame it on Fortnite or cheese fries. He's handling it the best he can and for the sake of argument let's just say it is the yips. Getting a diagnosis of TOS should help him mentally as well. As long as the team or the team we trade him to believes him, I'm happy.Yes, that poor body language indicates to me as well that the problem is mental, or at least partially mental. I mean shouldn't he show some sign of physical discomfort if that's the problem?
Assuming neither play again in the NBA the only thing differentiating them would be the other options had their team not drafted them. Tatum or Oladipo? Porter or Ball? You could nitpick on a marginal favorite but they are relatively similar. So yeah, equal busts.Hindsight being 20/20, is he a worse pick than Anthony Bennett? At least to date?
Fultz is obviously far more talented and most considered him the #1 guy in the draft but results are results.
That's not his fault though. It's a question about how much value he provided where he was picked and relative to his peers. It has nothing to do with the trade. You can only compare him to other #1 picks and his draft class.But Fultz cost an extra draft pick on top of it. Is that really equal?
When evaluating the Fultz side, for sure. But if you're evaluating it from the team decision side...well, that's definitely part of the calculation.That's not his fault though. It's a question about how much value he provided where he was picked and relative to his peers. It has nothing to do with the trade. You can only compare him to other #1 picks and his draft class.
I think that's a different question, which is:But Fultz cost an extra draft pick on top of it. Is that really equal?
How many trades for a known #1 pick have ever been made? Wasn't 2017 the first since 1980?I think that's a different question, which is:
Was Philly trading for Fultz the worst trade for a #1 pick ever?
Then you have to consider the Celtics/Warriors1980 trade of #1 (Joe Barry Carroll) + #13 (Ricky Brown) for #3 (Kevin McHale) and 4yr vet Robert Parrish. JBC had a nice career, but McHale and Parrish were HOFers.
Go easy on the guy, he lived through the era where his team picked Joe Smith at #1 in 1995, and the next 4 players picked all became all-stars (McDyess, Stackhouse, 'Sheed, and KG).Sam Ray Not feel free to weigh in here
ha, I'm definitely guilty of trolling here.Go easy on the guy, he lived through the era where his team picked Joe Smith at #1 in 1995, and the next 4 players picked all became all-stars (McDyess, Stackhouse, 'Sheed, and KG).
Joe Barry Carroll was actually a pretty good player until age caught up with him (which it did prematurely due to his inattention to conditioning). Unlike Fultz he gave the Warriors four pretty good years until he drifted off to Italy and then turned in a couple of more half-hearted (but still decent) seasons after his return.I think that's a different question, which is:
Was Philly trading for Fultz the worst trade for a #1 pick ever?
Then you have to consider the Celtics/Warriors1980 trade of #1 (Joe Barry Carroll) + #13 (Ricky Brown) for #3 (Kevin McHale) and 4yr vet Robert Parrish. JBC had a nice career, but McHale and Parrish were HOFers.
Yeah, everyone had Bennet as a mid to late lottery pick in what was widely viewed as the worst draft since 2000. It was so bad that Marcus Smart was in the conversation for #1 along with Oladipo. I was expecting the Cavs to go for Oladipo, so I was as shocked as anyone else when they went for Bennett.Bennett was more of a “what the hell?” pick. Seems like most of the nba was surprised by him going 1. Fultz had more of a consensus behind him, to the point where this board was wondering if we made the right move trading him for more assets.
JBC had one of the games all time great announcer nicknames in Joe Barely Cares.Joe Barry Carroll was actually a pretty good player until age caught up with him (which it did prematurely due to his inattention to conditioning). Unlike Fultz he gave the Warriors four pretty good years until he drifted off to Italy and then turned in a couple of more half-hearted (but still decent) seasons after his return.
I was thinking that it would be Oladipo or Porter, which certainly puts an interesting "what if" spin on that whole Cavs era. If they take one of those guys do they still end up with #1 the following season? If so, do they select Wiggins or do they take a stab at Embiid with their backcourt set? Does Lebron still sign there and do they feel as comfortable moving those pieces for Love? It's almost as if blowing that pick paved the way for their future success.Yeah, everyone had Bennet as a mid to late lottery pick in what was widely viewed as the worst draft since 2000. It was so bad that Marcus Smart was in the conversation for #1 along with Oladipo. I was expecting the Cavs to go for Oladipo, so I was as shocked as anyone else when they went for Bennett.
Yeah, he was definitely a guy that played himself into shape over the first quarter of the season, but during the pre-Italy years he got up and down the court quite swiftly for a seven footer and was a pretty good offensive player. It was hardly his fault that Golden State was a tire fire in those days.JBC had one of the games all time great announcer nicknames in Joe Barely Cares.
Oladipo was long time coming, neither Porter nor Oladipo as rookies would have impacted the dumpster fire that was the Cavs' organization. And, obviously, Embiid would have done nothing for them. Honestly, drafting Embiid would likely have saved the franchise, because someone that dominant might have prevented the breakup of the Cavs.I was thinking that it would be Oladipo or Porter, which certainly puts an interesting "what if" spin on that whole Cavs era. If they take one of those guys do they still end up with #1 the following season? If so, do they select Wiggins or do they take a stab at Embiid with their backcourt set? Does Lebron still sign there and do they feel as comfortable moving those pieces for Love? It's almost as if blowing that pick paved the way for their future success.
Either I’m misjudging Fultz’ market value or this writer has lost his mind.
One report I saw guessed at Ish Smith, Reggie Bullock and maybe a 2nd, so I think the first is probably a bit optimistic if a return.Either I’m misjudging Fultz’ market value or this writer has lost his mind.
“But what would be the cost of acquiring Fultz? He’s still a former No. 1 overall draft pick and he will likely not come cheap.
The 76ers aren’t looking to add salary — the Pistons would have to shed salary to take on Fultz’s $8.3 million to avoid luxury tax concerns.
Could a future first-round pick and a Pistons salary get it done?
Doubtful.”
2 expiring deals and a mid-2nd for optics purposes sounds like the max for a team that doesn’t care about taking on next years $9.4m. I still don’t touch this player but all it takes is one to take a $9m flier I suppose.One report I saw guessed at Ish Smith, Reggie Bullock and maybe a 2nd, so I think the first is probably a bit optimistic if a return.
Since this story is coming from the Liberty Ballers website, I'd expect it to be either a planted article by a 76ers exec or hopeful speculation.Either I’m misjudging Fultz’ market value or this writer has lost his mind.
“But what would be the cost of acquiring Fultz? He’s still a former No. 1 overall draft pick and he will likely not come cheap.
The 76ers aren’t looking to add salary — the Pistons would have to shed salary to take on Fultz’s $8.3 million to avoid luxury tax concerns.
Could a future first-round pick and a Pistons salary get it done?
Doubtful.”
Philly won't get useful assets in a salary dump. So you can forget guys like Ross or the Pope. Probably not even Josh Jackson, because even though he's a bust relative to draft position, he's still a rotation player. There's a real chance Fultz is never even that.If he gets traded, and I'm increasingly doubtful he will, it'll be for a middling wing on an expiring, like Terrence Ross or KCP, or another draft bust like Josh Jackson. The window has longed closed to get back draft assets.
The fact that Jackson is still receiving NBA minutes makes his representation refusing to come to Boston a smart move. If he were here he wouldn’t even sniff the floor.Philly won't get useful assets in a salary dump. So you can forget guys like Ross or the Pope. Probably not even Josh Jackson, because even though he's a bust relative to draft position, he's still a rotation player. There's a real chance Fultz is never even that.
What would have happened to Jaylen had he been drafted by Phoenix? (Time Lord might be an even better hypothetical.)The fact that Jackson is still receiving NBA minutes makes his representation refusing to come to Boston a smart move. If he were here he wouldn’t even sniff the floor.
I'm not sure what that has to do anything. He was clearly Ainge's Plan B if Tatum was off the board at #3. And if Tatum weren't here, then Josh Jackson likely is getting time.The fact that Jackson is still receiving NBA minutes makes his representation refusing to come to Boston a smart move. If he were here he wouldn’t even sniff the floor.
Also who knows what Josh Jackson would be with Stevens and Ainge's encouragement and advice and Marcus Smart and Al Horford (and others) up his ass for dogging it. I know that it sounds like I'm romanticizing the Boston clubhouse, but I'd bet a year's pay that it's more developmental in a hundred ways than Phoenix.I'm not sure what that has to do anything. He was clearly Ainge's Plan B if Tatum was off the board at #3. And if Tatum weren't here, then Josh Jackson likely is getting time.
Yes, any trade scenario has to be built on the assumption that he at least gets on the floor again. Fultz injured and/or mentally unfit to play is not a trade-able asset.Philly won't get useful assets in a salary dump. So you can forget guys like Ross or the Pope. Probably not even Josh Jackson, because even though he's a bust relative to draft position, he's still a rotation player. There's a real chance Fultz is never even that.
Maybe the problem isn't Fultz, but the people around him.During Fultz’s first season in Philadelphia, [his mother] had cameras installed inside his New Jersey home, according to several people familiar with the setup who described the indoor surveillance as unusual.
Just read the same article and the stories about his trainer and mom are just bizarre. The "Bambi" nickname, the chastising of coaches, the non-disclosure agreements. Granted, I'm sure if you dug deep enough into most NBA players' lives there would be some weird protective family members and hanger-ons, but the reality is they aren't subject to the same scrutiny as a no. 1 pick in a major media market that can't get on the court. I feel bad for him.From Candace Buckner in the Washington Post: No one knows what’s up with Markelle Fultz
Maybe the problem isn't Fultz, but the people around him.
They were pretty clear when they traded back that they were confident that their guy would be on the board at #3, do you really think that Ainge and Stevens had JJ #1 on their board at any time? His upside comp was Andre Iguodala, a nice player, but not the kind of guy you pick #1.Why was Jackson clearly Ainge's plan B? The Celtics clearly put a lot of weight in pre-draft workouts, and didn't have a chance to work him out.
Unless and until I hear him say otherwise, I'll just assume that if Tatum was gone, Ainge would have taken Mitchell.They were pretty clear when they traded back that they were confident that their guy would be on the board at #3, do you really think that Ainge and Stevens had JJ #1 on their board at any time? His upside comp was Andre Iguodala, a nice player, but not the kind of guy you pick #1.
I could see them wanting a fallback if Tatum were gone, and I always assumed that that was why they wanted to work him out. I refuse to believe that they had him #1 at any point.
Yeah, I figured that Jackson and Mitchell were in the running, mostly because there was a rumor at the draft that they were looking for a late lottery pick for Mitchell.Unless and until I hear him say otherwise, I'll just assume that if Tatum was gone, Ainge would have taken Mitchell.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25596713/philadelphia-76ers-gm-elton-brand-unsure-markelle-fultz-return-seasonBrand said it was "to be determined" if Fultz will play again this season.
"I can't say right now," Brand said.
The GM expects to update Fultz's situation in "a few weeks."
Okafor should be featured in "Who He Play For." I had to google it.This is reminiscent of the "First-Round-Pick-For-Jahlil Okafor" fiction that was perpetrated by Philly for years, even after he was a known bust. Fultz's career is on the same trajectory, and I think Philly's return will be similar to what they received for Okafor: bupkis.
For years? He was a legitimate member of the all-rookie team, and was traded in his third season last year after averaging 20/8 per 36 over his first two seasons.This is reminiscent of the "First-Round-Pick-For-Jahlil Okafor" fiction that was perpetrated by Philly for years, even after he was a known bust.
I know Jaylen is down this year, but are we really comparing a guy that was a first/second option with solid defense on a team that was within a good quarter from making the NBA Finals to Jahlil Okafor? Really?For years? He was a legitimate member of the all-rookie team, and was traded in his third season last year after averaging 20/8 per 36 over his first two seasons.
I wouldn’t disagree that he’s a bust for the #3 pick, but we’re not really in much of a position to throw stones with Jaylen on our team, who’s less than a year younger than Okafor.
He’s in year 3. He’s got a career TS% of .540. He’s 94th out of 100 SG in ORPM. He was the #3 pick in the draft. Yeah, I really am.I know Jaylen is down this year, but are we really comparing a guy that was a first/second option with solid defense on a team that was within a good quarter from making the NBA Finals to Jahlil Okafor? Really?
The problem with Okafor was that he got into a fight on video, hurt his knee, and the new GM who didn’t draft him didn’t really want him. Whether 538 decided he didn’t “fit the new NBA”was kind of secondary. He’s still probably a passable NBA center if he makes any attempt to rebound and play d. He’s played pretty well over the last few games being pressed into service in NO.But wasn't the problem with Okafor that his game didn't really fit the way the NBA is now? That he could put up numbers but probably not on a winning team?