Markelle Fultz, Year Two: Blass, Ankiel, Knoblauch...or cheese fries?

bosox79

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There's a this American Life about this (quick google says it's episode 590, "choosing wrong" https://www.thisamericanlife.org/590/choosing-wrong).

I haven't listened to it in a while but if memory serves it's about how mechanically it makes more sense to shoot FTs underhanded and specifically describes Wilt Chamberlin using that strategy briefly with great success. The theme of the episode is people knowingly making the wrong choice so as you can imagine it concludes with Wilt and other poor FT shooters whom the technique is suggested to choosing not to do it because it's "granny shooting" and they don't want to be embarrassed .
I figured it was something as simple as "I'll get laughed at." Kinda sad, really. They are getting laughed at anyway.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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the moops

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Dunc'd on podcast was theorizing on some potential Fultz trades.

ORL for Terrence Ross + Jonathon Simmons
PHI for Trevor Ariza
SAC for ??? More of a SAC would facilitate the deal to some third team because of how much cap space they have
BRK for D'angelo Russell
 

Cellar-Door

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Dunc'd on podcast was theorizing on some potential Fultz trades.

ORL for Terrence Ross + Jonathon Simmons
PHI for Trevor Ariza
SAC for ??? More of a SAC would facilitate the deal to some third team because of how much cap space they have
BRK for D'angelo Russell
Are the Sixers adding picks in these deals?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Dunc'd on podcast was theorizing on some potential Fultz trades.

ORL for Terrence Ross + Jonathon Simmons
PHI for Trevor Ariza
SAC for ??? More of a SAC would facilitate the deal to some third team because of how much cap space they have
BRK for D'angelo Russell
Each of those deals are insane from the other teams perspective imo. How does he fetch anything of value for the right to pay him $16m or whatever he's making these next two years?
 

the moops

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Each of those deals are insane from the other teams perspective imo. How does he fetch anything of value for the right to pay him $16m or whatever he's making these next two years?
Ross is expiring and Simmons only runs another year - with only a small guarantee. Orlando is not competing this year, so them taking a flier for two guys who are not in their long term plans seems fine by me.

PHO can likely do better for Ariza, but again, he is a rental that only competitive teams will want - so not sure what else they would get.

BRK would just be shuffling headaches around
 

bosox79

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Ross is expiring and Simmons only runs another year - with only a small guarantee. Orlando is not competing this year, so them taking a flier for two guys who are not in their long term plans seems fine by me.

PHO can likely do better for Ariza, but again, he is a rental that only competitive teams will want - so not sure what else they would get.

BRK would just be shuffling headaches around
After the first 5 teams in the east, the rest is meh. Orlando is competing for a playoff spot. That actually does mean something even though we like to pretend it doesn't.
 

HomeRunBaker

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After the first 5 teams in the east, the rest is meh. Orlando is competing for a playoff spot. That actually does mean something even though we like to pretend it doesn't.
Yeah sometimes it's easy to forget that there are high paying jobs in play here. Hammond is in the 2nd year of his deal coming off a 25-win season. The Magic are 7-8 and currently the 8-seed. They are far from punting on this season.
 

djbayko

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Because no one is laughing at Fultz now.
Fultz is a different situation though. He’s not only having issues with his free throws. People are laughing about his shot, period. He obviously can’t take a granny shot from behind the 3 point line very often and get away with it (nor would he want to). So he has to figure out his “normal” shot mechanics no matter what or he’s not long for this league.

Someone like Shaq is a much more interesting case. He dominated teams on offense solely due to his high percentage dunks and layups (and a friendly interpretation of offensive fouls). From the field, his shot wasn’t a major problem. He definitely could have benefited from a different approach to foul shots because the traditional form obviously wasn’t cutting it.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Dunc'd on podcast was theorizing on some potential Fultz trades.

ORL for Terrence Ross + Jonathon Simmons
PHI for Trevor Ariza
SAC for ??? More of a SAC would facilitate the deal to some third team because of how much cap space they have
BRK for D'angelo Russell
Their overevaluation of Fultz is at least consistent
 

PedroKsBambino

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As others noted, given his contract those proposals feel inconsistent with that valuation.

I agree with you that someone will take a shot— it I think he’s in salary dump territory. Maybe it’s close enough not to matter on the trade that would result
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't mean to keep defending them. But they think he is way broken. And in a vacuum, worth no more than a 2nd round pick. There is the chance that some team will take a chance though, and on that I agree.
Surely somebody at some point will take a shot. I have trouble seeing that happening within the next year unless their is a salary dump in return. Taking that salary off the Sixers hands is where the return comes in imo…..not in actual talent going back to Philly although there are players who could be similar salary dumps for other teams who could play a 2nd unit role on the Sixers while being a better fit.
 

nighthob

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Surely somebody at some point will take a shot. I have trouble seeing that happening within the next year unless their is a salary dump in return. Taking that salary off the Sixers hands is where the return comes in imo…..not in actual talent going back to Philly although there are players who could be similar salary dumps for other teams who could play a 2nd unit role on the Sixers while being a better fit.
Yeah, if they were trading for JR Smith or George Hill I’m sure the Cavs would gladly settle for the Fultz lottery ticket. But guys with positive trade value are going to require more than that.
 

oumbi

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Fultz tonight, off the bench, 7 minutes, 0 for 2, 0 points. Maybe he should eat MORE cheese fries. It certainly could not hurt.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Fultz tonight, off the bench, 7 minutes, 0 for 2, 0 points. Maybe he should eat MORE cheese fries. It certainly could not hurt.
Don't forget the errant pass against no pressure and being out of position defensively on multiple possessions resulting in 3 fouls. Just end the experiment now it's hurting the team.
 

lovegtm

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They should really be trying their hardest to move him while attaching nothing more than a 2nd rounder. If it hits the summer and they need to fire-sale move him to make room for an almost max, the price will probably be their 2019 late first round pick.
 

nighthob

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If he hits the summer it won't be the guy Philly just drafted that the Atlantas of the NBA are going to be asking for, it's one of the future ones.
 

Caspir

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At the direction of his attorney? Not a sports psychologist, a trainer, or someone with some sort of tie in to athlete health? This is a bust of Kwame Brown level proportions, no? (Third pick that year? Pau Gasol.)
 

JCizzle

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At the direction of his attorney? Not a sports psychologist, a trainer, or someone with some sort of tie in to athlete health? This is a bust of Kwame Brown level proportions, no? (Third pick that year? Pau Gasol.)
Yeah I immediately noticed that too. What the hell is going on with this kid. Get yourself some new advisors!
 

ifmanis5

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Ideally when he is cleared medically, he should go to the G-League to get his mechanics and confidence back. You can't rebuild your shot on the NBA level, that was always a bad idea.
 

djbayko

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Ideally when he is cleared medically, he should go to the G-League to get his mechanics and confidence back. You can't rebuild your shot on the NBA level, that was always a bad idea.
He’s already had a year to do nothing but rebuild it, man. He should go to the G League but I don’t see much hope.
 

ifmanis5

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He’s already had a year to do nothing but rebuild it, man. He should go to the G League but I don’t see much hope.
He didn't play last year and skipped summer league. Shooting at practice will only get you so far. He needs a year of G-League but not sure his ego will allow him to do that.
 

cheech13

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Does the fact that the tweet says "attorney" and not "agent" mean anything? Is this a precursor to a lawsuit against either the Sixers or Hanlen?

Going too deep into the twittersphere can be dangerous, but there was a med student that did a good breakdown of Fultz and his mechanics and was almost positive that Fultz has a significant nerve injury that has been misdiagnosed. Some people think he's full of shit (and he very well may be), but he's out there willing to discuss it (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9x9248/as_the_med_student_who_tweeted_the_fultzlong/).
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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If a single fucking person in this thread even thinks about buying into the "shoulder injury" shit again, I'll make it my life mission to make the rest of your SoSH experience as miserable as possible.
 

HomeRunBaker

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They should really be trying their hardest to move him while attaching nothing more than a 2nd rounder. If it hits the summer and they need to fire-sale move him to make room for an almost max, the price will probably be their 2019 late first round pick.
I speculated that Brown was starting him this year to showcase his upside to peak someone's interest as that lineup with Simmons made zero sense. Scal this morning confirmed that his sources around the league told him similar.

The Sixers are stuck with him on their roster as no team is going to take on his remaining $16m or so for a second round pick......they wouldn't even do it for a first. Not happening unless it's to a team looking to dump a worse deal. Fultz for Mahinmi?
 

nighthob

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The Sixers are stuck with him on their roster as no team is going to take on his remaining $16m or so for a second round pick......they wouldn't even do it for a first. Not happening unless it's to a team looking to dump a worse deal. Fultz for Mahinmi?
His salary this year is ≈ $8 million. But it goes up from there. He has more like $18 million remaining over the next two years, although technically it's only next year's salary that someone is stuck with since they can just decline the fourth year option. So someone might trade a low second for Fultz and Philly's 2019 #1.
 

HomeRunBaker

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His salary this year is ≈ $8 million. But it goes up from there. He has more like $18 million remaining over the next two years, although technically it's only next year's salary that someone is stuck with since they can just decline the fourth year option. So someone might trade a low second for Fultz and Philly's 2019 #1.
Not to be nit picky but the remaining prorated amount is roughly $6.4m on top of next years $9.7m for a total of about $16.1m
 

BigSoxFan

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Imagine trading 2 draft picks to get Fultz and then having to trade another pick just to get him off your roster. Yikes. I think Philly stays stubborn here and just uses him as salary filler for another deal down the road.
 

leetinsley38

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Imagine trading 2 draft picks to get Fultz and then having to trade another pick just to get him off your roster. Yikes. I think Philly stays stubborn here and just uses him as salary filler for another deal down the road.
Fultz may literally go down as one of the worst draft picks in sports history. It’s going to cost the Sixers a third 1st rounder to dump this guy.
With this posturing and talk of “attorneys” it does seem like he’s angling for a final payout. Just like he sat out the end of his college career to avoid being overexposed.
 

nighthob

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Imagine trading 2 draft picks to get Fultz and then having to trade another pick just to get him off your roster. Yikes. I think Philly stays stubborn here and just uses him as salary filler for another deal down the road.
Yeah, I think he's definitely getting Darkoed.

Fultz may literally go down as one of the worst draft picks in sports history. It’s going to cost the Sixers a third 1st rounder to dump this guy.
With this posturing and talk of “attorneys” it does seem like he’s angling for a final payout. Just like he sat out the end of his college career to avoid being overexposed.
He's on his third shooting motion post-college. I doubt that he knew this was coming any more than Steve Blass, Rick Ankiel, or Chuck Knoblauch did.
 

InstaFace

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If a single fucking person in this thread even thinks about buying into the "shoulder injury" shit again, I'll make it my life mission to make the rest of your SoSH experience as miserable as possible.
As opposed to... what explanation? Lack of moral fiber? Not being "tough enough"?

edit: I suppose Carlos Kaiser redux would be a fun story though.
 
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InstaFace

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I'd call it the yips, but you can call it whatever you want.

Just not an injury.
I mean, no offense, but neither you nor I have the first goddamn idea if there's anything physically wrong with Markelle Fultz. We can say that all his limbs appear fully attached and he runs without a limp, all else is speculation on both sides. Your certainty is bizarre.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I mean, no offense, but neither you nor I have the first goddamn idea if there's anything physically wrong with Markelle Fultz. We can say that all his limbs appear fully attached and he runs without a limp, all else is speculation on both sides. Your certainty is bizarre.
We actually do have an idea though We know that team physicians have cleared him to both play and practice since last year. There has been no push back resulting in his refusal to do so either. That isn't nothing.
 

bankshot1

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Chuck Knoblaugh Syndrome seems to be the leader in the clubhouse, but didn't it take a couple of MRIs 6 months after his initial injury to finally discover Jacoby Ellsbury had another broken rib that was causing him discomfort.
 

RGREELEY33

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I feel really bad for the kid. Hopefully he saves and invests his money appropriately because it is hard to see him being a serviceable player in the NBA at this point. I hope I am wrong because he is still so young, but this is the oddest sports story in a long time.
 

InstaFace

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Right, he wouldn't be the first to have team doctors fail to identify something or fail to classify it seriously enough. In Toronto, Kawhi Leonard is silently nodding.

Likely explanation? No. Take the word of a random med student on Reddit? No. But in a universe of possibilities all of which seem individually unlikely, it's about as reasonable as anything else we could guess at this point.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I mean, no offense, but neither you nor I have the first goddamn idea if there's anything physically wrong with Markelle Fultz. We can say that all his limbs appear fully attached and he runs without a limp, all else is speculation on both sides. Your certainty is bizarre.
Sounds like a typical injury situation.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

"I thought they might move it up for him," Brand added with a smile, "but I guess not. So Monday is the appointment, and after that we'll know more."
I mean...have you been paying attention to this thing since hes been drafted? Him having the yips may be the least "bizarre" take there is. Let's go over the history of the injury:

  • No known injury while Fultz starts air balling on the court.
  • Mysterious injury pops up. 76ers say there is no known injury.
  • Fultz's agent says Fultz had fluid removed from the shoulder.
  • Team denies this.
  • Fultz's agent says, um, I mean he had fluid injected into his shoulder...like, you know, a cortisone shot.
  • Fultz's camp says, no, this has nothing to do with fluid, he has scapular dyskinesis, an injury not really known to cause these types of problems, nor one that was acknowledged by the team.
  • Team is radio silent. After some time, team agrees he has an injury, and will work through it in his own time.
  • Several weeks pass, and the team says hes healthy, but there is no timetable for his return.
  • Season ends with very limited playing time, but doesnt appear to have any more odd hiccups.
  • Fultz works with Drew Hanlen and releases video of an improved jumper. Turns out the improved jumper was an old video spliced into the new video. There is careful crafting in the video to never show Fultzs form.
  • Relationship with Hanlen sours, with rumors that people in his camp arent happy with his results (duh).
  • As of the last few weeks, a string of airballs and odd shooting motions have crept back into his game. Fultzs lawyer(?) claims an injury - which the team again denies, even stating this is the first they're hearing about it, while throwing out sarcastic responses about his "doctors appointment" - and states he wont return until hes ready (again...)
I just wasted way too much time typing that out, but I'm really fucking shocked that, at this point, people are going to buy the injury thing AGAIN. How many guys hurt their shoulder or back in the NBA? A bunch, right? How many of them start lobbing up airballs? How many have their team disagree with an injury multiple times? Better yet, how many of them glitch out and forget to shoot the ball on a free throw? None? Is none of them the answer? I think none is the answer, because scapular dyskinesis doesnt make people forget to shoot a free throw.

I'm not happy the kid is broken. This fucking sucks for him. But, at this point, the only hot take is the injury one.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Right, he wouldn't be the first to have team doctors fail to identify something or fail to classify it seriously enough. In Toronto, Kawhi Leonard is silently nodding.

Likely explanation? No. Take the word of a random med student on Reddit? No. But in a universe of possibilities all of which seem individually unlikely, it's about as reasonable as anything else we could guess at this point.
Right......and what did Kyrie and his representation do? They shut Kawhi down. Fultz has doctors too and they have apparently cleared him to play and practice as that is what he's consistently been doing for the past year.
 

JCizzle

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Right......and what did Kyrie and his representation do? They shut Kawhi down. Fultz has doctors too and they have apparently cleared him to play and practice as that is what he's consistently been doing for the past year.
Never underestimate Kyrie's power of persuasion. Shutting down the competition without even playing a game ;)
 

InstaFace

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right, ok KFP, we get that you "don't buy the injury thing". but unless you've got a likelier proposal you want to back, you're basically being a critic rather than a problem-solver here.

I'm curious, being someone who likes mystery novels and shows, what in the hell is going on. Unlike Carlos Kaiser, here we know that "he could never play, it was all hype, smoke and mirrors" wasn't the case. I mean, he was the consensus #1 overall pick, and during the time we held that pick, a number of respected posters were salivating over taking him, and over the various breathless articles talking about his character, his mom, his focus and drive, his junior national team experience, etc. We had years of film on him going back to AAU. Unlike Darko, who was a 7-footer who was basically told "you're tall, play basketball" and it was never his dream, the competition level required to be an NBA Guard is absolutely insane. If he lacked the passion or stomach for it, we'd have seen it in some fashion before now.

So I find the level of over-the-top contempt you show for the possibility, given that there is no obvious right answer here, to be really uncalled-for (and honestly kinda weird).
If a single fucking person in this thread even thinks about buying into the "shoulder injury" shit again, I'll make it my life mission to make the rest of your SoSH experience as miserable as possible.
Like, I'm not "buying into it", but at this point I have to consider it just as equally unlikely as anything else that it might be.
 

johnmd20

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What problem do you think SoSH is going to solve? Fultz is broken mentally. And it's sad and unfortunate and I wish it wasn't the case. But it's hard to imagine any other scenario.

He cannot shoot and it's not his shoulder. He's 22 years old.