Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Fultz doesn't look like he wants to play.

Also, Scal said that Caron Butler said that Fultz's shoulder injury forced Fultz how to eat with a fork again. Who's buying that?
 

Jimbodandy

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Fultz still looks awful. He seems scared to shoot. Couldn't get a look at his form on the free throws, because the director was bad. Cut in late to the first and missed the second entirely. I guess that it's a good thing that he's playing at least.
 

Big John

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Fultz looks like a guy who was drafted near the end of the second round and should be starting the season in the D league.
 

BJBossman

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I went through this in another thread, but the median assumption for a player of Fultz's caliber (consensus #1 pick in a draft that isn't weak at the top) is that barring injury, he'll be at least as good a baller as Blake Griffin, if not better (obviously apples and oranges, as BG is a completely different player, but you get my point). That's not "assum[ing] dramatic events"; it's a sober assessment of how good guys with that pedigree who don't get seriously hurt end up being.

Tatum has the highest floor by far of any of this year's first four picks (barring injury, an athletic 6-8 guy who was a star in college and can shoot the rock won't fail to be a useful NBA player), but the conventional wisdom says his median projection isn't on par with a consensus #1 pick like Fultz. So while anything could happen, Danny is making a big bet against the conventional wisdom.
espn analytics guy had Fultz as a typical number 2 overall guy based on numbers.
Lonzo was the guy who played like a 1-1.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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If you could take all of waters’s intelligence and skill and put it in Fultz’s body, he’d be exactly what Fultz was supposed to be.
I know we all love Waters as the scrappy underdog guy but that's not really fair to Fultz. Fultz is - and always has been - super skilled. He's got great handle; he can get anywhere he wants on the court; and while he's not Dennis Smith Jr., he's pretty athletic for a PG.

His only problem is that for whatever reason - whether physical or mental or what not - he can't shoot. And in the NBA, if you can't shoot, you're not going to play much unless you're Ben Simmons (or the team isn't trying to win).
 

Big John

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There are individual skills and team skills. Waters always knows where his teammates are on the court. Fultz doesn't as far as I can tell.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There are individual skills and team skills. Waters always knows where his teammates are on the court. Fultz doesn't as far as I can tell.
Doesn't make sense to me. Fultz was always lauded for his court vision. In fact, he ended up the Magic's assist leader during this preseason: https://www.nba.com/magic/team-continuity-ross-says-could-help-magic-get-fast-start-regular-season-20191017.

I know people like to crap on Fultz but let's not forget that most of us - me included - would have been ecstactic if the Cs drafted him. Because he was good.
 

Kliq

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Doesn't make sense to me. Fultz was always lauded for his court vision. In fact, he ended up the Magic's assist leader during this preseason: https://www.nba.com/magic/team-continuity-ross-says-could-help-magic-get-fast-start-regular-season-20191017.

I know people like to crap on Fultz but let's not forget that most of us - me included - would have been ecstactic if the Cs drafted him. Because he was good.
Not afraid to admit it; I was mad when they traded the pick and was in the clear "Just take Fultz!" camp.

I am delighted to have been proven incredibly wrong since then.
 

Big John

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Fultz' assist numbers in his senior year at DeMatha and at Washington were good, but to me he doesn't seem to be an instinctive distributor. Maybe I'm missing something.
 

DJnVa

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Fultz' assist numbers in his senior year at DeMatha and at Washington were good, but to me he doesn't seem to be an instinctive distributor. Maybe I'm missing something.
What's that based on? We've seen him play one year in college, a year in which most people didn't see him much, and that's pretty much it.

What do you see that makes you think he's not "instinctive"?
 

benhogan

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What's that based on? We've seen him play one year in college, a year in which most people didn't see him much, and that's pretty much it.

What do you see that makes you think he's not "instinctive"?
Markelle always seems loose/disinterested when bringing the ball up. He had a lot of turnovers along with those assists this preseason.

I could see a quick guard, like Tre, just picking him in the backcourt or draining shot clock against Fultz, the ball handler.
 

Big John

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Fultz went head to head with Waters a few nights ago and Waters outplayed him. Yes, it was just the preseason.

There is plenty of video available on both players, and I've watched some-- although I haven't looked at Fultz closely since the draft-- in large measure because he's been sitting, not playing. From what I've seen, Waters is better. If Tremont were 6-3 he would have been a lottery pick.
 
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TripleOT

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Waters has a tremendous handle, is a good set up PG, good passer, and pretty good shooter. Even if we take shooting out of the equation, he's at least as skilled as Fultz, and probably more skilled.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I know we all love Waters as the scrappy underdog guy but that's not really fair to Fultz. Fultz is - and always has been - super skilled. He's got great handle; he can get anywhere he wants on the court; and while he's not Dennis Smith Jr., he's pretty athletic for a PG.

His only problem is that for whatever reason - whether physical or mental or what not - he can't shoot. And in the NBA, if you can't shoot, you're not going to play much unless you're Ben Simmons (or the team isn't trying to win).
I wasn't a Fultz guy entering the draft and questioned both his lack of explosiveness and his mental makeup. There will always be the bizarre situation with a knee injury that he supposedly had at UW which caused him to come in and out of games on a couple different occasions prior to shutting it down for the year only to show up a couple month later with seemingly 20 extra lbs on him...….just weird stuff coming from a guard and the projected #1 pick in the upcoming draft which I questioned here leading up to the draft. Of course, nobody could have ever predicted what we are witnessing.

Having said that, Fultz isn't close to the same player today as he was at UW even when you discount the perimeter shooting as his lack of explosion is telling. He isn't an NBA player today so if people want to say Waters outplayed a non-NBA player in a preseason game I won't be arguing that one.
 

amarshal2

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I know we all love Waters as the scrappy underdog guy but that's not really fair to Fultz. Fultz is - and always has been - super skilled. He's got great handle; he can get anywhere he wants on the court; and while he's not Dennis Smith Jr., he's pretty athletic for a PG.

His only problem is that for whatever reason - whether physical or mental or what not - he can't shoot. And in the NBA, if you can't shoot, you're not going to play much unless you're Ben Simmons (or the team isn't trying to win).
From what I can tell, Waters has a plus handle and lots of skills. Fultz was never an all world athlete. He was a good athlete who used a great handle and a bevy of hesitation moves to create separation and score. In college he was a questionable shooter. He shot 40% from 3 but in the 60’s from the free throw line. He was a decent distributor, Waters is actually better. Additionally Waters has better hands as his SEC DPoY trophy will attest. The reason Waters was a second round pick instead of high lottery is his size. He’s not just short, he’s 170 lbs soaking wet. If you put him in Fultz’s body he’d have been considered at #2 overall and you’d have to have been an idiot to not take him at #3.
 

terrynever

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Fultz off to good start as backup PG, averaging 24 minutes off the bench, 12.33 ppg, 4.5 assists, even shooting 3s (2-for-9 so far).
 

RetractableRoof

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I have to say I've enjoyed a certain amount of schadenfreude about the Sixers/Fulz goings on - especially given the deliciousness that was the trade Danny managed. I think most of it was rooted in not wanting to see tankers benefit from the effort.

I also have to say that at this point I'm just hoping this kid manages to climb all the way out of this hole that's been dug around him. He's a young kid who's really done nothing to justify my sad enjoyment of his professional struggles. I hope he continues to get after it and ignores jerks like me.
 

terrynever

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I have to say I've enjoyed a certain amount of schadenfreude about the Sixers/Fulz goings on - especially given the deliciousness that was the trade Danny managed. I think most of it was rooted in not wanting to see tankers benefit from the effort.

I also have to say that at this point I'm just hoping this kid manages to climb all the way out of this hole that's been dug around him. He's a young kid who's really done nothing to justify my sad enjoyment of his professional struggles. I hope he continues to get after it and ignores jerks like me.
Pretty sure Fultz doesn’t peruse SOSH.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Happy for him too, and no hitch there, but something is still weird with that shot.
Aside from defenders pleading for him to shoot an uncontested jumper like you'd do to the 14-year old kid in an adult pickup game? I hope the kid salvages his career too as it would be a monumental climb from where he was a year ago but man that is the slowest NBA release I've seen since Manute was launching 3's for Don Nelson.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Happy for him too, and no hitch there, but something is still weird with that shot.
It's more of a push shot than a jump shot - the kind of shot that 9 year olds do.

Not saying that it can't be accurate but it's not often that a guy can get off that shot in the NBA given (i) how slow it is (as noted by HRB) and (ii) how low the release is.
 

DJnVa

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It's more of a push shot than a jump shot - the kind of shot that 9 year olds do.

Not saying that it can't be accurate but it's not often that a guy can get off that shot in the NBA given (i) how slow it is (as noted by HRB) and (ii) how low the release is.
Yeah--if he hits a few teams will close out a bit quicker and the time he has to get it off will shrink considerably.
 

Tony C

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Feel great for Fultz and that he can even that as am really rooting for him -- baby steps. At this point, it reminds me a bit of Rondo's "improved" 3 point shot - it has improved and it's something that he can hit it. But both do it with very slow releases that rely on the defense showing them no respect. Be interesting if Fultz can improve his release time with greater confidence. Hope so.
 

benhogan

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I'll root for Markelle when he plays the Sixers, Bucks or any team that's a threat to the Celtics. I'll subsequently root against him when he plays against the Celts.

I'm definitely interested in seeing him play hoops and see if he can come back from whatever the heck was wrong with him. BUT I'm just not attached to him emotionally like others. Otherwise, I don't like the look of his shot at all. I hope the Celtics let him shoot from the outside at will.
 

nighthob

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Aside from defenders pleading for him to shoot an uncontested jumper like you'd do to the 14-year old kid in an adult pickup game? I hope the kid salvages his career too as it would be a monumental climb from where he was a year ago but man that is the slowest NBA release I've seen since Manute was launching 3's for Don Nelson.
I mean it makes Horford’s release look like Stef’s. You could time that with a bloody sundial.
 

terrynever

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Markelle just had his best pro game, 19 points in a 125-121 win, including a steal, breakaway dunk, and one when it was a 119-116 game. He hit two threes! Both backups were hurt — Augustin and MCW. Markelle is suddenly getting the time he needs, just playing ball. He’s still raw and inexperienced. But his physical skills are worth the gamble.

 

bigq

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He had a triple double in the last game of the 2017-18 season but I don’t think either team was playing to win that day and your point stands. Glad to hear he had a good game. I’m rooting for the kid to succeed.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Fultz is averaging over 9 drives a game and Clifford wants that to be around 14. Good things happen to ORL when he does that. Here's an article that summarizes:
.

Keep an eye on this team. They have length and talent; they desperately need some guard play.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Fultz is averaging over 9 drives a game and Clifford wants that to be around 14. Good things happen to ORL when he does that. Here's an article that summarizes:
.

Keep an eye on this team. They have length and talent; they desperately need some guard play.
Rumors still flying about a trade with the Spurs for DeRozan.
 

Poulsonator

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Went to the game last night and the crowd went nuts for his first half, and then exploded with his game-winning one-handed dunk (and one) at the end. Hope he can keep building on performances like that, it's fun rooting for the kid.
 

benhogan

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Rumors still flying about a trade with the Spurs for DeRozan.
What would Orlando send back? I guess Fournier (playing well) & Fultz works money/cap-wise. Fournier would also check Pop's penchant for foreign players.

Going for DeRozan is so Orlando-ish... it's hard to discount

Since you are long Orlando W/L, it would be rather ironic for you to gather the benefits of Fultz play. :redwine:

I'm still not emotionally attached to Markelle and let him launch 3s at will.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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What would Orlando send back? I guess Fournier (playing well) & Fultz works money/cap-wise. Fournier would also check Pop's penchant for foreign players.

Going for DeRozan is so Orlando-ish... it's hard to discount

Since you are long Orlando W/L, it would be rather ironic for you to gather the benefits of Fultz play. :redwine:

I'm still not emotionally attached to Markelle and let him launch 3s at will.
Assuming the Spurs continue their descent to make moving DeRozan more of a possibility I would expect the Spurs to require one of Isaac/Bamba (obv along with Fultz) and a draft pick in any DeRozan deal. Bamba can be bought fairly low while Isaac of course would require a larger type deal. This would be a youth re-tool for the Spurs and they would probably look to move Gay in this deal as well. For someone long on the Magic and short on the Spurs in my season wagers I would drool with a trade of this sort. The Magic are desperate for scoring with the Aaron Gordon disappointment thus far and are at or near the bottom of nearly all offensive metrics. DeRozan would be a great fit as the defacto PG so Augustin doesn't have to be force used as a creator while allowing him to excel as a spot-up shooter playing off DeRozan. Having a scorer/creator off the dribble like this would allow for others to slide into a more comfortable complimentary role rather than what is occurring now with everyone on the floor tying to do things outside of their game.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Assuming the Spurs continue their descent to make moving DeRozan more of a possibility I would expect the Spurs to require one of Isaac/Bamba (obv along with Fultz) and a draft pick in any DeRozan deal. Bamba can be bought fairly low while Isaac of course would require a larger type deal. This would be a youth re-tool for the Spurs and they would probably look to move Gay in this deal as well. For someone long on the Magic and short on the Spurs in my season wagers I would drool with a trade of this sort. The Magic are desperate for scoring with the Aaron Gordon disappointment thus far and are at or near the bottom of nearly all offensive metrics. DeRozan would be a great fit as the defacto PG so Augustin doesn't have to be force used as a creator while allowing him to excel as a spot-up shooter playing off DeRozan. Having a scorer/creator off the dribble like this would allow for others to slide into a more comfortable complimentary role rather than what is occurring now with everyone on the floor tying to do things outside of their game.
I think a DeRozen for even Fultz/Bamba would make ORL worse in the long run but what do I know?

From the article I posted earlier: "[Fultz] was inserted into the starting lineup on Nov. 2 against the Denver Nuggets. In his seven starts, the Magic are averaging 104.3 points, including 109.8 in their past five contests. The 109.8 clip would rank the Magic seventh in the NBA.

Over that five-game stretch from Nov. 5-15, the Magic were 13th in offensive rating (109.4). Fultz, meanwhile, has posted offensive ratings of 132, 116 and 144 his past three games."

If one compares each team's last five games, ORL's rating is second best (behind the Cs): https://www.nba.com/magic/magic-had-nbas-fourth-best-offensive-rating-during-five-game-home-stand-20191117.

If it were me, I'd let this lineup play for awhile before moving Fultz.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think a DeRozen for even Fultz/Bamba would make ORL worse in the long run but what do I know?

From the article I posted earlier: "[Fultz] was inserted into the starting lineup on Nov. 2 against the Denver Nuggets. In his seven starts, the Magic are averaging 104.3 points, including 109.8 in their past five contests. The 109.8 clip would rank the Magic seventh in the NBA.

Over that five-game stretch from Nov. 5-15, the Magic were 13th in offensive rating (109.4). Fultz, meanwhile, has posted offensive ratings of 132, 116 and 144 his past three games."

If one compares each team's last five games, ORL's rating is second best (behind the Cs): https://www.nba.com/magic/magic-had-nbas-fourth-best-offensive-rating-during-five-game-home-stand-20191117.

If it were me, I'd let this lineup play for awhile before moving Fultz.
To put Orlando's new and improved offense into its proper context, the Magic's last two games have been against......

* Wizards, the worst defensive team in the league
* Spurs who are also near the bottom

The week prior they had......

* Memphis, one of the worst defensive teams in the league
* Philadelphia, off a B2B when they arrived at their Orlando hotel around 3am or so.


John Hammond was hired to take this organization into the playoffs. I don't know what type of long-term implications losing Bamba and Fultz would cause (I'm guessing little) but the East is ripe for a team like the Magic to win a playoff series or dare I say even two this year. It's the type of shot in the arm this franchise needs badly imo.
 

nighthob

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If their goal is to win a playoff series why in the name of god would they be trading for DeRozan?
 

Cesar Crespo

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