Markelle Fultz, Year Three: He's back! Big....?

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
13,508
Uh...I know it sounds "great" but that is an abysmal value for the #1 overall pick for 2017. The guy they could have picked and kept a #1 is potentially valued as a key piece for Davis....

Basically they traded Tatum, and top 10ish pick for a low round 1st (or 2nd) and 1 year of Ben Simmons....
He's not a #1 pick. He's a guy that can't play basketball. That they got anything for him is at least pretty good.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
22,151
Hingham, MA
He's actually potentially a lot like Kyrie, not ridiculously fast but shifty and hard to stay in front of especially with his pull up/ step back ability.
The scouts who loved him compared him to kyrie, except with better size and better tools defensively. More questions sure, but similar. He also can play off play off ball supposedly. We shall see.
He's as good a prospect (PROSPECT) as Kyrie or Wall.
This aged well
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
4,376
This line doesn’t inspire confidence:
When asked what exactly was going on with Fultz, Clifford said he wasn't 100-percent sure, but said it was tissue build-up and that he needed a lot of physical therapy.
So much for thoracic outlet syndrome being the answer?

Anyways, they’re not going to have a lot of real game experience to go on by October 31 when they have to decide whether they want to pick up his fourth year option for $12 million.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,929
It boggles my mind that the Magic’s management was that stupid. You expect people that stupid to accidentally slice their jugular while shaving in the morning. With their electric safety razor.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
36,012
Say what you want about Ainge but Fultz for Tatum and Langford is one of the best trades in NBA history by the sheer fact that the former is not even an NBA basketball player.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
3,467
It's interesting that he was such a consensus #1 pick leading up to the draft. Not Zion level consensus, but I remember looking at a lot of mock drafts and so forth and everybody seemed to think he was a can't miss NBA prospect. It shouldn't be surprising, but it still surprises me how off projections so often are.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
9,915
Sixers fans must be ecstatic to be rid of him and no longer have him be their problem. At least Joe Barry Carroll was a somewhat useful player in the league for a few years (and an all-star once).

What are the top 5 biggest #1-overall-pick busts of the post-merger era? Not many such players failed to become all-NBA, and of course over half are hall of famers. Contenders include:

1972: LaRue Martin, Portland Trail Blazers - 4 years, 271 games played (pre-merger, slightly)
1989: Pervis "Out-of-Service" Ellison, Sacramento Kings - 11 years, 474 games played (245 started)
1998: Michael Olowokandi, LA Clippers - 10 years, 500 games played (393 started)
2001: Kwame Brown, Washington Wizards - 12 years, 607 games played (281 started)
2006: Andrea Bargnani, Toronto Raptors - 10 years, 550 games played (377 started)
2007: Greg Oden, Portland Trail Blazers - 3 years, 105 games played (66 started)
2013: Anthony Bennett, Cleveland Cavaliers - 4 years, 151 games played (4 started)
2017: Markelle Fultz, Philadelphia 76ers - 2 years, 33 games (15 started)

I think you'd have to put Fultz on track to easily be in the top 5 worst, and could well challenge Oden and Bennett for top honors.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
4,376
It's interesting that he was such a consensus #1 pick leading up to the draft. Not Zion level consensus, but I remember looking at a lot of mock drafts and so forth and everybody seemed to think he was a can't miss NBA prospect. It shouldn't be surprising, but it still surprises me how off projections so often are.
It’s an odd case in that the consensus talent level projection may have been fairly accurate, had it not been for the bizarre shooting issue (be it caused by yips, injury, etc.). I remember his first summer league game against the Celtics and thinking I was happy we came away with Tatum but the 6er fans couldn’t be too upset because they were getting a guy who looked to have the tools to be a legit NBA player. Whatever happened between summer league and preseason to mess with his shot, I don’t think the scouts and analysts could have predicted; even Ainge probably didn’t see it coming, even if made an absolute heist in retrospect.

Anyways, do I understand the timing correctly that Orlando has until Halloween to decide if they want to pick up his fourth year option? That’s a $12 million option and not a lot of time to see how he’s playing by then, but it’s also hard to trade assets for a player and then decline that year of control so quickly after.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
2,271
Saint Paul, MN
Sixers fans must be ecstatic to be rid of him and no longer have him be their problem. At least Joe Barry Carroll was a somewhat useful player in the league for a few years (and an all-star once).

What are the top 5 biggest #1-overall-pick busts of the post-merger era? Not many such players failed to become all-NBA, and of course over half are hall of famers. Contenders include:

1972: LaRue Martin, Portland Trail Blazers - 4 years, 271 games played (pre-merger, slightly)
1989: Pervis "Out-of-Service" Ellison, Sacramento Kings - 11 years, 474 games played (245 started)
1998: Michael Olowokandi, LA Clippers - 10 years, 500 games played (393 started)
2001: Kwame Brown, Washington Wizards - 12 years, 607 games played (281 started)
2006: Andrea Bargnani, Toronto Raptors - 10 years, 550 games played (377 started)
2007: Greg Oden, Portland Trail Blazers - 3 years, 105 games played (66 started)
2013: Anthony Bennett, Cleveland Cavaliers - 4 years, 151 games played (4 started)
2017: Markelle Fultz, Philadelphia 76ers - 2 years, 33 games (15 started)

I think you'd have to put Fultz on track to easily be in the top 5 worst, and could well challenge Oden and Bennett for top honors.
If we look at just two years post draft, there is nobody even close to Fultz, IMO.

Bennet and Brown at least appeared in over 100 games. Oden was a solid player in the 80 games he appeared in. Bargnani averaged double digit points. Olowokandi nearly averaged a double double. Etc. etc.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
9,746
Waltham, MA
Anyways, do I understand the timing correctly that Orlando has until Halloween to decide if they want to pick up his fourth year option? That’s a $12 million option and not a lot of time to see how he’s playing by then, but it’s also hard to trade assets for a player and then decline that year of control so quickly after.
If that’s true, Fultz may want to delay his return until after Halloween :oops:
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
17,376
Sixers fans must be ecstatic to be rid of him and no longer have him be their problem. At least Joe Barry Carroll was a somewhat useful player in the league for a few years (and an all-star once).

What are the top 5 biggest #1-overall-pick busts of the post-merger era? Not many such players failed to become all-NBA, and of course over half are hall of famers. Contenders include:

1972: LaRue Martin, Portland Trail Blazers - 4 years, 271 games played (pre-merger, slightly)
1989: Pervis "Out-of-Service" Ellison, Sacramento Kings - 11 years, 474 games played (245 started)
1998: Michael Olowokandi, LA Clippers - 10 years, 500 games played (393 started)
2001: Kwame Brown, Washington Wizards - 12 years, 607 games played (281 started)
2006: Andrea Bargnani, Toronto Raptors - 10 years, 550 games played (377 started)
2007: Greg Oden, Portland Trail Blazers - 3 years, 105 games played (66 started)
2013: Anthony Bennett, Cleveland Cavaliers - 4 years, 151 games played (4 started)
2017: Markelle Fultz, Philadelphia 76ers - 2 years, 33 games (15 started)

I think you'd have to put Fultz on track to easily be in the top 5 worst, and could well challenge Oden and Bennett for top honors.
I think there are only 4 #1 picks with a negative career VORP: Olowokandi, Anthony Bennett, Wiggins, and Fultz.

Fultz is -0.2. Olowakandi is -8.2 or something like that.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
17,376
If we look at just two years post draft, there is nobody even close to Fultz, IMO.

Bennet and Brown at least appeared in over 100 games. Oden was a solid player in the 80 games he appeared in. Bargnani averaged double digit points. Olowokandi nearly averaged a double double. Etc. etc.
Is it worse not to play or to play a lot and be bad? Olowokandi had a -3.6 VORP over his first two seasons. That's pretty bad. Bennett was something like -1.6.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
10,538
Is it worse not to play or to play a lot and be bad? Olowokandi had a -3.6 VORP over his first two seasons. That's pretty bad. Bennett was something like -1.6.
The first? The latter implies you were at least good enough to stick around for awhile, even if you were bad.

I think atm, Fultz is easily the worst 1st pick. Maybe he shocks the world and has an NBA career.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
9,746
Waltham, MA
The first? The latter implies you were at least good enough to stick around for awhile, even if you were bad.

I think atm, Fultz is easily the worst 1st pick. Maybe he shocks the world and has an NBA career.
I guess there are probably two different questions which don't necessarily need to have the same answer:
  1. Which player was the biggest bust?
  2. Which player hurt their team more?
You could debate #1, but I'd probably pencil Fultz in there, for now. Wouldn't #2 have to be Olowokandi because he literally provided negative value? In theory, you should be able to find a replacement player who would perform better than him, right?
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,929
VORP is not a terribly good measure. When you look at metrics that break down to offense and defense what you find is that Kandyman was OK to good defensively and horrific offensively. It’s why his win shares grade out to -.1 for his Clipper years.

As of now Philadelphia traded Jason Tatum and Romeo Langford for Jonathan Simmons and some second round picks. That officially makes Markelle the biggest bust this side of a stripper convention.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
9,915
how is that not 100% wasted money? why not decline it and offer him a deal at something close to the vet minimum, at least giving him a chance to remain in the league if he proves something?

Shit, Mo Bamba has a fucking top hip-hop song written about him, Fultz is too sad a story to even be the butt of jokes. WTF.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
37,997
how is that not 100% wasted money? why not decline it and offer him a deal at something close to the vet minimum, at least giving him a chance to remain in the league if he proves something?
Perhaps they like what they see this offseason?
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,929
If they fail to pick up the option they’re not allowed to re-sign him. At this point they’ve surrendered assets for him so they may as well keep their options open. If he’s just totally Blassed he can always be used as salary ballast in a trade.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
4,376
If they fail to pick up the option they’re not allowed to re-sign him. At this point they’ve surrendered assets for him so they may as well keep their options open. If he’s just totally Blassed he can always be used as salary ballast in a trade.
Bobby Marks also points out that they’re capped out for 2020-21 anyways, so it’s not like they were otherwise going to spend that money on free agents.

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/bobbymarks42/status/1173678481877716994


Having that sizable ballast may be the best use of the owner’s $12.3 million, even if he remains unplayable.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
37,997
If they fail to pick up the option they’re not allowed to re-sign him. At this point they’ve surrendered assets for him so they may as well keep their options open. If he’s just totally Blassed he can always be used as salary ballast in a trade.
From #1 pick to potential salary ballast in 2 seasons. Wow.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
17,376
Against what competition? With a resume like his, I'd think you'd need to show more than hard work ethic and impressive work outs/scrimmages.
According to an article that quotes the Athletic, Fultz has been working "diligently" with two members of ORL's staff. There's apparently a 28 second video of Fultz shooting without the hitch he had in PHI. (I don't have an Athletic subscription so here's the other article: https://clutchpoints.com/magic-news-markelle-fultz-has-worked-diligently-in-recent-months-under-supervision-of-orlandos-player-development-staff/).
 

Jody Reed's 1988 Mustache

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
28
how is that not 100% wasted money? why not decline it and offer him a deal at something close to the vet minimum, at least giving him a chance to remain in the league if he proves something?

Shit, Mo Bamba has a fucking top hip-hop song written about him, Fultz is too sad a story to even be the butt of jokes. WTF.
To be fair, Markelle does have one very prominent rapper pulling for him. 21 Savage

"I pray for Markelle 'cause they fucked up his shot
Just want you to know that you got it, my n*****
Though I never met you, I know that you special
And that the Lord blessed you, don't doubt it, my n*****
Dennis Smith Jr., stay solid, my n*****
I'm on a tangent, not how I planned it"
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,929
Imagine the Magic ballast opportunities if they can bring in Guerschon Yabusele.
I mean what were their options after making the deal? I said at the time that I hated the deal for the Magic because there was a chance that one of those #2s turned into a useful NBA player (and Boston better hope so as they got the first of those picks from Philly in the Thybulle trade). Now that they’ve given away three second rounders they need to see if they can get Fultz past the psychological hang-ups, because he has a lot of talent.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
9,746
Waltham, MA
According to an article that quotes the Athletic, Fultz has been working "diligently" with two members of ORL's staff. There's apparently a 28 second video of Fultz shooting without the hitch he had in PHI. (I don't have an Athletic subscription so here's the other article: https://clutchpoints.com/magic-news-markelle-fultz-has-worked-diligently-in-recent-months-under-supervision-of-orlandos-player-development-staff/).
It was a rhetorical question. That's about what I expected, which doesn't mean anything until he sees live NBA action. However, given the cap and free agency considerations mentioned above, I suppose it's worth a shot.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
18,259
Newton
I won't be satisfied until Danny picks Fultz up off the garbage heap, Stevens turns him into a key sixth man on the way to a title and Portland signs him to a $70M deal.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
504
Brooklyn by way of Orono
Against what competition? With a resume like his, I'd think you'd need to show more than hard work ethic and impressive work outs/scrimmages.
Not saying I would have picked up the option but in his curious case I don’t think the competition had much to do with it. We saw the zapruder tapes from the gym when he was basically alone and the shooting was shite. If he were over the yips even in pickup ball then he’s probably over them.

I won't be satisfied until Danny picks Fultz up off the garbage heap, Stevens turns him into a key sixth man on the way to a title and Portland signs him to a $70M deal.
From your lips...
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
18,200
NBA.com NBA gm poll
Which rookie will be the best player in 5 years?
Josh Jackson 24%
Markelle Fultz 21%
Jayson Tatum 21%
Lonzo Ball 14%
Ben Simmons 14%
Others receiving votes: Jonathan Isaac, Dennis Smith Jr

Maybe Fultz wasn't as consensus #1 as mock draft sites would have us believe?

http://www.nba.com/gmsurvey/2017#/
Edit to add link
NBA GM’s pool from two years ago. JJ and Fultz at the top.
 

Caspir

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
5,392
To be fair, Markelle does have one very prominent rapper pulling for him. 21 Savage

"I pray for Markelle 'cause they fucked up his shot
Just want you to know that you got it, my n*****
Though I never met you, I know that you special
And that the Lord blessed you, don't doubt it, my n*****
Dennis Smith Jr., stay solid, my n*****
I'm on a tangent, not how I planned it"
That's not a 21 Savage verse, it's J Cole.

I hope the kid figures it out. He's seemingly a nice guy, no real issues behaviorally. It just sucks that he's feeling with it.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
18,200
His shot still looks pretty busted in the newest hype video. Can't believe ORL picked up his option
I get that the Magic weren’t going to have any additional cap options had they not picked it up......but why an owner would willingly light fire to $12m+ is unfathomable.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,929
Orlando’s got some expensive extensions coming up, and they’re already over the cap. So they do need to think about ways of making deals for a prime talent, which they don’t really have at the moment. And they do need to have salary to make it.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
7,508
Santa Monica
Orlando’s got some expensive extensions coming up, and they’re already over the cap. So they do need to think about ways of making deals for a prime talent, which they don’t really have at the moment. And they do need to have salary to make it.
After signing Aminu and Vucevic, maybe Isaac and/or Bamba available for a wing/guard?

or maybe they make a run at Chris Paul? (for Fournier, Augustin, Fultz & protected 1)
 
Last edited:

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
10,538
I've said it before and I'm sure others have to, but it is setting up nicely for Ainge to acquire Fultz and Josh Jackson for next to nothing. All part of the long game/con.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
7,929
I've said it before and I'm sure others have to, but it is setting up nicely for Ainge to acquire Fultz and Josh Jackson for next to nothing. All part of the long game/con.
The best part will be when Ainge flips Fultz for the draft pick that turns into LeBron James Jr. as Fultz turns back into a pumpkin after leaving Boston.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
18,200
The best part will be when Ainge flips Fultz for the draft pick that turns into LeBron James Jr. as Fultz turns back into a pumpkin after leaving Boston.
We get to see Markelle tonight with him coming off a 2-12 performance. He's 0-4 behind the arc thus far.