Markelle Fultz, Year Three: Currently as Inactive as Seymour

HomeRunBaker

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Fultz ain’t voiding anything. This could easily be the last big money he ever sees.
The Players Associstion would never allow for a guaranteed contract to be voided and would fight to high hell should the Sixers even attempt something like this. This is a non-starter.
 

bosox79

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Why would any team voluntarily sign up for this circus sideshow?
Is he a sideshow? He's always been more of an afterthought which is kinda crazy given he was the #1 pick.

edit: I guess I read sideshow as "distraction." Is he really a distraction?
 

nighthob

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Why would any team voluntarily sign up for this circus sideshow?
If the cost is a three year minimum deal, why not? If he makes good, you got something for nothing. If not it doesn’t cost much to let him head off to Europe.
 

nighthob

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The article's wishcasting. There is no Suns' offer for Fultz, just the writer recalling that the Suns were interested in trading up for him before the draft. A year plus later I imagine that interest has dried up. Especially given that the deal would need to include the Suns taking on even more salary for the for the privilege of seeing if Fultz can be salvaged.

Phoenix would get a lot more if they just put Ariza on the auction block on 12/16.
 

BigSoxFan

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Article discussing Fultz’s trade value, with the Suns offering Ariza as the main option, but hard to finalize anything when there’s so much uncertainty over the cause of the shooting woes, with Fultz needing to “be truthful” about what’s plaguing him:

http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-trade-options-sixers-76ers-cleveland-cavaliers-phoenix-suns-20181128.html
Philly would be all over a Fultz/filler for Ariza deal. But that won't get it done. Ariza is too valuable and someone else could easily offer more value.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ben Simmons gets by with being as poor of a shooter as Fultz. Fultz is good enough to still have value even if he has the yips, IMO.
I don't know how you can come to this conclusion after Fultz has lost all his backup PG minutes to McConnell not once but twice over the Sixers past 25-30 games covering the past two seasons.

Simmons can get anywhere he wants with the ball when defenses play off him where he is a threat to score which is how he's avg over 15/g on 54%.
 

cheech13

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Fultz sitting on the bench in a suit has zero trade value because you can't reasonably ascertain whether he'll ever play again. He's too much of a black box. It doesn't matter if the issues are physical or mental, it's too much risk for a franchise to take on that salary commitment when you don't have guarantees that he's healthy and able to play.

The Fultz that was on the court earlier this year? That Fultz still has value because even with his shooting flaws he did show that he can handle the ball, push the pace and get to the rim. He has also shown the physical tools to be a good defender. With that and his pedigree as a former #1 pick someone would have taken a chance on him and someone will in the future if he can get out there and play again.
 

Cellar-Door

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Ben Simmons gets by with being as poor of a shooter as Fultz. Fultz is good enough to still have value even if he has the yips, IMO.
Simmons is a defacto big though, and his lack of shooting is an issue for the sixers ceiling. Beyond that PGs who can't shoot have to be elite elsewhere to stay in the league, he's a less efficient scorer than Rondo for example and probably worse at every other facet of the game. Now maybe a team takes a chance on him, but unless you really believe his shot will get fixed his ceiling is pretty low and his salary is too high
 

nighthob

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Ben Simmons gets by with being as poor of a shooter as Fultz. Fultz is good enough to still have value even if he has the yips, IMO.
If Fultz were a 6'10" four position defender that might be true. He isn't. He has to get to his spots the way Kyrie does, only unlike Irving he doesn't do a lot when he gets there.
 

Jimbodandy

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If Fultz were a 6'10" four position defender that might be true. He isn't. He has to get to his spots the way Kyrie does, only unlike Irving he doesn't do a lot when he gets there.
Without the threat of a shot, any shot, he will never get to the rim with any regularity at his size. Especially since he isn't much of a threat of a pass either.
 

bosox79

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Track record is terrible for pitchers coming back from that injury
I'm guessing it isn't any easier to shoot a basketball with numb fingers than it is to throw a pitch. I don't know if they are more or less likely to recover from the surgery though.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Is TOS an actual diagnosis or just the condition that doctors invented for "sports injury in the shoulder area that we can't figure out but also might not really be an injury"?

Mostly having a laugh. What a bizarre career that may already be over.
 

bosox79

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Is TOS an actual diagnosis or just the condition that doctors invented for "sports injury in the shoulder area that we can't figure out but also might not really be an injury"?

Mostly having a laugh. What a bizarre career that may already be over.
Do you mean in general or specifically in regards to Fultz diagnosis?
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Philadelphia Inquirer beat writer Sarah Todd: Team source says that Fultz has seen upwards of 10 specialists dating back to at least the start of the offseason, and after his appointment today it was the first time that not playing has been the recommendation. #sixers
 

bosox79

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Philadelphia Inquirer beat writer Sarah Todd: Team source says that Fultz has seen upwards of 10 specialists dating back to at least the start of the offseason, and after his appointment today it was the first time that not playing has been the recommendation. #sixers
Which makes one wonder if playing made the condition worse.
 

DannyDarwinism

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That’s one possibility. Him searching for someone to say something is physically wrong is a different possibility....


Neubeck has been digging on Fultz’s issues from jump, and his tone has shifted recently from cautiously optimistic and sympathetic towards Fultz (though wary of his team of “advisers”) to highly skeptical of everything that comes out of his camp.


Edit to add context- HPbasketball’s tweet is referencing Neubeck’s deep dive article on Fultz’s ever-evolving jumper/shot-put/epileptic soccer throw-in from last year, posted earlier in this thread.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Neubeck has been digging on Fultz’s issues from jump, and his tone has shifted recently from cautiously optimistic and sympathetic towards Fultz (though wary of his team of “advisers”) to highly skeptical of everything that comes out of his camp.


Edit to add context- HPbasketball’s tweet is referencing Neubeck’s deep dive article on Fultz’s ever-evolving jumper/shot-put/epileptic soccer throw-in from last year, posted earlier in this thread.
Nice find right here!!

Wait. People are actually buying this? I guess it was a good move by his agent after all.
For anyone who does buy any portion of this charade I will simply ask.......

What type of TOS results in a basketball player doing the Sam Cassell Big Ball Dance prior to releasing his free throw? What type causes him to morph into Anthony Mason hesitation mode mid-stream?
 
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PedroKsBambino

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I mean...anything is possible. He may really be hurt. I think starting off after one big missed shot or something by blaming someone’s psyche is often weak sauce. But it is also true that once in a rare while that actually is the correct answer, too. My chips for him are, unfortunately and based on a lot of weird stuff to this story, in the category of ‘in his head’ at least primarily.

I hope the guy gets it together, whatever is preventing it now.
 

the moops

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For anyone who does buy any portion of this charade I will simply ask.......

What type of TOS results in a basketball player doing the Sam Cassell Big Ball Dance prior to releasing his free throw? What type causes him to morph into Anthony Mason hesitation mode mid-stream?
I think if anything, it may be a combination of injury and the yips. As in maybe he truly has some shoulder pain, which forced him to change his shot, which resulted in him shooting worse/weirder, which made him question his ability to actually shoot, which resulted in where we are now
 

radsoxfan

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Is TOS an actual diagnosis or just the condition that doctors invented for "sports injury in the shoulder area that we can't figure out but also might not really be an injury"?

Mostly having a laugh. What a bizarre career that may already be over.
It’s an actual diagnosis that is probably “real” in a minority of patients that are given (or suggested) the diagnosis.

There are definitely people who have an extra rib or focally enlarged muscle impinging exiting nerves at the thoracic outlet and contributing to real symptoms. Overhead throwing athletes in particular can be susceptible. Sometimes surgery is curative.

In the absence of an anatomic abnormality or a history of repetitive overhead throwing (and with this entire bizarre Fultz saga in the background), the smart money is on “not real”.

They probably found a doc to say “TOS could be causing this, let’s try a month or two of PT”. Honestly at this point they might be better off saying it’s psychological and he’s seeing a therapist to work out his issues.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It’s an actual diagnosis that is probably “real” in a minority of patients that are given (or suggested) the diagnosis.

There are definitely people who have an extra rib or focally enlarged muscle impinging exiting nerves at the thoracic outlet and contributing to real symptoms. Overhead throwing athletes in particular can be susceptible. Sometimes surgery is curative.

In the absence of an anatomic abnormality or a history of repetitive overhead throwing (and with this entire bizarre Fultz saga in the background), the smart money is on “not real”.

They probably found a doc to say “TOS could be causing this, let’s try a month or two of PT”. Honestly at this point they might be better off saying it’s psychological and he’s seeing a therapist to work out his issues.
Thank you for this.

Regardless of what is causing his problems, this Fultz story just sucks aside from the fact that it weakens a Celtics division rival. He will be fine, of course, but assuming he wants to play basketball, it has to be tough on a kid like him to come into the league as the top draft choice, get a taste of being an NBA player and then find out that something may derail his career before he even got started. Again, he will likely be fine regardless but he clearly put in a lot of time and effort into his craft. And there is a decent chance it may be all over.
 

cheech13

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So, wait, the med student ranting on Twitter was right?! As if this could get any more bizarre.
 

Imbricus

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I've always been skeptical it was just the yips hampering Fultz. I know it's a minority opinion, but I personally had a knee issue that doctors told me was definitely local to my knee and over time it morphed into a weird systemic issue involving multiple joints far from my knee (and what's more, I heard from other knee pain sufferers who had the same problem). Or what about frozen shoulder? That craziness just comes and goes and often doesn't show up any imaging test. There's a lot of strange stuff that occurs with the human body that produces genuine signals of pain and discomfort, but the origin can be totally a mystery.
 

Jimbodandy

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I've always been skeptical it was just the yips hampering Fultz. I know it's a minority opinion, but I personally had a knee issue that doctors told me was definitely local to my knee and over time it morphed into a weird systemic issue involving multiple joints far from my knee (and what's more, I heard from other knee pain sufferers who had the same problem). Or what about frozen shoulder? That craziness just comes and goes and often doesn't show up any imaging test. There's a lot of strange stuff that occurs with the human body that produces genuine signals of pain and discomfort, but the origin can be totally a mystery.
When your knee hurt, did you walk with a limp of some kind? That would be expected. If you started hopping around on one leg and flapping your arms, one would be fair in assuming that the issue wasn't simply your knee.

I doubt that there is a lot of celebration in the room about the total failure that Fultz's career has been so far. Most of us hope that he makes something of himself, assuming of course that it doesn't come back to cost our team in the playoffs somehow. But there's no physical condition that comes close to explaining what has happened to him. A contributing factor? Totally believable. But that's just part.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Thank you for this.

Regardless of what is causing his problems, this Fultz story just sucks aside from the fact that it weakens a Celtics division rival. He will be fine, of course, but assuming he wants to play basketball, it has to be tough on a kid like him to come into the league as the top draft choice, get a taste of being an NBA player and then find out that something may derail his career before he even got started. Again, he will likely be fine regardless but he clearly put in a lot of time and effort into his craft. And there is a decent chance it may be all over.
Will he though? This is far from a certainty and I read somewhere this week that his teammates are concerned about his well being. This is a lot to go through for a young kid having the world at your fingertips and then suddenly it's all gone. What does he do next?
 

Marciano490

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I don’t know much about doctors or medicine but I’ve been misdiagnosed multiple times or had very prominent doctors diagnose an injury as one thing and others recommend a totally different course that worked just fine. Not saying that’s what happened here, but he wouldn’t be the first person to find out what’s wrong on a tenth opinion.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Will he though? This is far from a certainty and I read somewhere this week that his teammates are concerned about his well being. This is a lot to go through for a young kid having the world at your fingertips and then suddenly it's all gone. What does he do next?
You are right in that I cannot say he will be "fine" in the mental well-being sense. By fine, I was actually referring to the fact that, absent the 76ers somehow voiding his contract, he will have made ~$24mm by the time his rookie deal runs out. If he happens to figure things out, he stands to make a lot more too. Assuming he isn't too crazy spending, he and his family should be ok.

That said, his issues, be they mental or physical or both have to be extremely frustrating. I cannot imagine what its like for a 20 year old person who has worked hard to get to a position where they can ply their trade at the highest level, only to be robbed of their ability to do so by something that isn't easily remedied with a medical approach or rest.
 

Imbricus

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When your knee hurt, did you walk with a limp of some kind? That would be expected. If you started hopping around on one leg and flapping your arms, one would be fair in assuming that the issue wasn't simply your knee.
Not flapping my arms :D, but I did develop severe medial epicondylitis, or tennis elbow, that was so bad I couldn't carry a Subway sandwich in a bag without pain. I was doing nothing with my arms that would've caused this; it came on like a bolt out of the blue. I asked a doctor if it could be somehow connected to the knee pain, and he scoffed at the idea. Later, after healing, I talked to many knee pain sufferers and was amazed at how many others had pain in unrelated joints. My joint pain was supposed to be local. But I strongly suspect there was a systemic element at play.

Maybe Fultz does have the yips, or maybe what he's got is 10% physical and 90% psychological (what would you consider complex regional pain syndrome?). I don't know. All I wanted to say, speaking from experience, was that the weirdness with the human body can run really deep.
 

Jimbodandy

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Not flapping my arms :D, but I did develop severe medial epicondylitis, or tennis elbow, that was so bad I couldn't carry a Subway sandwich in a bag without pain. I was doing nothing with my arms that would've caused this; it came on like a bolt out of the blue. I asked a doctor if it could be somehow connected to the knee pain, and he scoffed at the idea. Later, after healing, I talked to many knee pain sufferers and was amazed at how many others had pain in unrelated joints. My joint pain was supposed to be local. But I strongly suspect there was a systemic element at play.

Maybe Fultz does have the yips, or maybe what he's got is 10% physical and 90% psychological (what would you consider complex regional pain syndrome?). I don't know. All I wanted to say, speaking from experience, was that the weirdness with the human body can run really deep.
Regarding your last sentence, totally agree. And good point.
 

Ed Hillel

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All the footage of Fultz I have seen missing shots has him immediately dipping his head despondently, not checking his fingers, shaking his hand or shoulder or anything like that. Add in the mystery knee ailment in college, and I personally think this is a predominantly mental issue going on. Is ToS something one can just develop at age 20?
 

bosox79

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All the footage of Fultz I have seen missing shots has him immediately dipping his head despondently, not checking his fingers, shaking his hand or shoulder or anything like that. Add in the mystery knee ailment in college, and I personally think this is a predominantly mental issue going on. Is ToS something one can just develop at age 20?
The people most likely to get ToS are in the 20-40 age group, so yes.