Markelle Fultz, Year Three: Currently as Inactive as Seymour

terrynever

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Fultz is a nice ball handler. Last night, he dribbled across half court and headed to the left side of the hoop for a layup. Everything looked good. And then his shot never got above the rim. It’s just weird.
 

bosox79

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I'm still hoping he ends up being released, signs with the Celtics at the minimum and figures it all out.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Kyle Neubeck is a good place to start when trying to filter out the noise buzzing around Fultz:

https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-caught-by-surprise-markelle-fultz-shoulder-injury-agent-raymond-brothers/

As he points out, Fultz has been practicing and training throughout most of this saga (including, apparently, today), and we know that both the Sixers and Fultz himself have recently said that he's physically fine, so if it is injury related, it's both (a) a type of injury that no one- not the Sixers' medical staff or Fultz's team has accurately diagnosed, and (b) isn't made perceptibly worse by use, since Fultz presumably would've said something if training and playing made him uncomfortable. We've also seen that it hasn't impacted non-shooting aspects of his game- the thunderous, full-extension dunks, the over-the-head trick shots in practice.

And then the moment it becomes clear Fultz will be losing a big chunk of his minutes as a team with big aspirations moves forward without him, his agent/lawyer announces he's done until he sees a specialist. I dunno, seems like a misguided effort by his team to salvage whatever value he may have. I'd say he needs a change of scenery, but it sounds like the problem his coming from inside the house, via a team of advisers that's just making everything worse. Plus, wherever you go, there you are.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I'm still hoping he ends up being released, signs with the Celtics at the minimum and figures it all out.
Traded for Rozier, Danny transfers the voodoo hex he put on Fultz during the draft process to Terry on his way out. Rozier signs a big contract in Philly and immediately loses the ability to dribble a basketball, while Brad cubically transforms Fultz into the next Celtic legend. #TTP.
 

terrynever

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The 76ers are quietly moving on from Fultz and this week off is a good thing for the team. McConnell will take over as backup point guard. Shamet has stepped in as a shooter off the bench. Backcourt defense remains a big problem, of course.
Philly got through a rough part of the schedule that included five back-to-backs.
And Fultz will go down to the D-League after his exam next Monday. Best place for him so he can play a lot and try to find his old college game.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The 76ers are quietly moving on from Fultz and this week off is a good thing for the team. McConnell will take over as backup point guard. Shamet has stepped in as a shooter off the bench. Backcourt defense remains a big problem, of course.
Philly got through a rough part of the schedule that included five back-to-backs.
And Fultz will go down to the D-League after his exam next Monday. Best place for him so he can play a lot and try to find his old college game.
I definitely do not expect Fultz' reps to allow Fultz' to play a minute in the G-League. He's going to be shutdown again just like last year except this time by his own people. You cannot continue to expose him when he's like this and there is a good chance that we never see him play another NBA minute. It would be negligent to have him continue playing right now in the G-League.
 

leetinsley38

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We’ll probably start to hear reports of a revamped shot and grainy cell phone videos late next summer. It will all build up to the week or so before his option needs to be picked up.
 

PedroKsBambino

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If his reps don't let him play you have to wonder if the team will seek to void his contract, though, don't you? They likely don't want that contract on the books and it's hard to see how you move on unless he either plays or has some documented medical issue for which there can be a treatment plan.

Royce White may be the best comp at this point, though his anxiety problems were diagnosed and agreed. I make that comp not to suggest the specific challenges he faced are the same as Fultz's (we just don't know what Fultz's might be or not be) but that from the perspective of the team, a player who is physically able to play is not for a set of reasons actually able/willing to do so and that leaves the team having to make a choice about the use of the roster spot.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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If his reps don't let him play you have to wonder if the team will seek to void his contract, though, don't you? They likely don't want that contract on the books and it's hard to see how you move on unless he either plays or has some documented medical issue for which there can be a treatment plan.
No they won't. We've heard of nothing Fultz has done wrong that would allow PHI to void the contract and I doubt there is anything.

And sitting a player pending a medical exam is de rigueur.
 

DannyDarwinism

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If his reps don't let him play you have to wonder if the team will seek to void his contract, though, don't you? They likely don't want that contract on the books and it's hard to see how you move on unless he either plays or has some documented medical issue for which there can be a treatment plan.

Royce White may be the best comp at this point, though his anxiety problems were diagnosed and agreed. I make that comp not to suggest the specific challenges he faced are the same as Fultz's (we just don't know what Fultz's might be or not be) but that from the perspective of the team, a player who is physically able to play is not for a set of reasons actually able/willing to do so and that leaves the team having to make a choice about the use of the roster spot.
Please tell me this all leads to an NBPA arguing for a strict materialist interpretation of "physically unable" with the Sixers citing Thomas Nagel in their response brief.
 

PedroKsBambino

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No they won't. We've heard of nothing Fultz has done wrong that would allow PHI to void the contract and I doubt there is anything.

And sitting a player pending a medical exam is de rigueur.
I agree the above is fair PRIOR to the most recent absence. I read the team's response to it as being different in tone than anything previous. The coach said he was "surprised" and didn't know of any injury. The GM suggested he was unaware of anything wrong with the player and had no info on a timeline. It was pretty clear the team was both surprised by and not aligned with this recent development.

The player is obligated to show up and play. If he cannot, he is obligated to engage with and follow the team's medical staff. He is not doing that---for now, with the team's acquisence. But I do not anticipate that is a forever condition. Failing to do either is what brings the issue up to a question of what happens next, imo.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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I agree the above is fair PRIOR to the most recent absence. Did you miss the team's response to it? The coach said he was "surprised" and didn't know of any injury. The GM suggested he was unaware of anything wrong with the player and had no info on a timeline. It was pretty clear the team was both surprised by and not aligned with this recent development.

The player is obligated to show up and play. If he cannot, he is obligated to engage with and follow the team's medical staff. He is not doing that---for now, with the team's acquisence. But I do not anticipate that is a forever condition. Failing to do either is what brings the issue up to a question of what happens next, imo.
Kawhi Leonard says, "Bonjour."

They aren't voiding the contract. I know we as internet message-boarders love talking about the possibility of voiding contracts but unless the person has a felony conviction or something along that lines, the time, cost, expense, and negative PR (just to name a few) means that voiding contracts rarely happens.

Other than voiding a contract for injuries suffered while playing other sports, I can't think of a NBA contract that was voided.

Remember, GSW couldn't even void Spreewell's contract when he chocked Carlesimo.

fake edit: Cs tried to void Baker's contract for not going to alcohol rehab; I believe they reached a settlement. Tarpley's contract might have been voided but I can't remember if that was the team or the league as Tarpley had failed the league's antidrug policies.
 

terrynever

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I definitely do not expect Fultz' reps to allow Fultz' to play a minute in the G-League. He's going to be shutdown again just like last year except this time by his own people. You cannot continue to expose him when he's like this and there is a good chance that we never see him play another NBA minute. It would be negligent to have him continue playing right now in the G-League.
You may be right. I just think the team needs some time away from Fultz, too. They have a lot of stuff to iron out with Butler, team defense, etc. Fultz is a huge distraction and he’s not helping.
 

The Needler

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No they won't. We've heard of nothing Fultz has done wrong that would allow PHI to void the contract and I doubt there is anything..
Kawhi Leonard says, "Bonjour."

They aren't voiding the contract. I know we as internet message-boarders love talking about the possibility of voiding contracts but unless the person has a felony conviction or something along that lines, the time, cost, expense, and negative PR (just to name a few) means that voiding contracts rarely happens.

Other than voiding a contract for injuries suffered while playing other sports, I can't think of a NBA contract that was voided.
We have actually heard rumors that he injured his shoulder riding dirtbikes, which is a prohibited activity under collective bargaining without the team’s permission.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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We have actually heard rumors that he injured his shoulder riding dirtbikes, which is a prohibited activity under collective bargaining without the team’s permission.
First and foremost, assuming you are correct about the contract that would come into play only if Sixers knew it occurred after July 7, 2017.

Even if such an accident happened, If the Sixers don't know the date of the accident now, they will probably never know.
 

The Needler

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First and foremost, assuming you are correct about the contract that would come into play only if Sixers knew it occurred after July 7, 2017.

Even if such an accident happened, If the Sixers don't know the date of the accident now, they will probably never know.
Uh, I disagree. If there’s litigation into a multimillion dollar voided contract, they’ll find out.

And you don’t have to assume I’m correct about the contract. The uniform player contract is readily accessible online: “Player agrees that he will not, without the written consent of the Team, engage in any activity that a reasonable person would recognize as involving or exposing the participant to a substantial risk of bodily injury including, but not limited to: (i) sky-diving, hang gliding, snow skiing, rock or mountain climbing (as distinguished from hiking), rappelling, and bungee jumping; (ii) any fighting, boxing, or wrestling; (iii) driving or riding on a motorcycle or moped; (iv) riding in or on any motorized vehicle in any kind of race or racing contest...”

Nobody is saying the Sixers are certainly going to seek to void the contract. But your definitive statement that they absolutely won’t is baseless.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Kawhi Leonard says, "Bonjour."

They aren't voiding the contract. I know we as internet message-boarders love talking about the possibility of voiding contracts but unless the person has a felony conviction or something along that lines, the time, cost, expense, and negative PR (just to name a few) means that voiding contracts rarely happens.

Other than voiding a contract for injuries suffered while playing other sports, I can't think of a NBA contract that was voided.

Remember, GSW couldn't even void Spreewell's contract when he chocked Carlesimo.

fake edit: Cs tried to void Baker's contract for not going to alcohol rehab; I believe they reached a settlement. Tarpley's contract might have been voided but I can't remember if that was the team or the league as Tarpley had failed the league's antidrug policies.
So, what you are saying is that teams have done precisely what I said (try to void a contract) when other players have not been able to play effectively? Gee, what a surprise.

I certainly do not think they would succeed given the labor environment---nor did i say otherwise. The point is that this is a negotiation and that one of the moves in it is the team seeking to take action (which might be a fine, and then escalate to voiding the contract) and the player will take other actions (threaten litigation for how the team handled the initial injury---which has already been rumored---threaten to sue as to contract, file a grievance through CBA, etc).

The Spurs wanted Kawhi as a player, which is not true of any of the other guys you mention. That is why they took a less aggressive approach.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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So, what you are saying is that teams have done precisely what I said (try to void a contract) when other players have not been able to play effectively? Gee, what a surprise.

I certainly do not think they would succeed given the labor environment---nor did i say otherwise. The point is that this is a negotiation and that one of the moves in it is the team seeking to take action (which might be a fine, and then escalate to voiding the contract) and the player will take other actions (threaten litigation for how the team handled the initial injury---which has already been rumored---threaten to sue as to contract, file a grievance through CBA, etc).

The Spurs wanted Kawhi as a player, which is not true of any of the other guys you mention. That is why they took a less aggressive approach.
OK. I misinterpreted you a little bit. I thought you meant that PHI would seek to void his contract because they were actually trying to void his contract, not just as a negotiating tool.

It appears that we both agree that at the end of the day, Fultz's contract is not voidable. If you know that and I know that the PHI knows that.

So if you really want to parse this out, here's the question for you. Without the discovery of any new facts, do you think PHI will take send Fultz's team a written notice that declares Fultz's contract null and void or attempt not to pay him? I'm not saying that Fultz might not be subject to discipline of some sort, but when you talk about voiding - or attempting to void - a contract, this is a legal/contractual action that requires a specific action by the team, and that is what I am talking about.

I can't say that PHI won't do something stupid but generally speaking if a team knows it's not going to succeed, they aren't going to try it.

And it's fairly obvious that Fultz's situation is way different than Sprewell and also Vin Baker (note it was reported that Baker had specific agreements in his contract about his aftercare programs that were implicated in the attempt to void his contract). And I have confirmed that Roy Tarpley's contract wasn't just voided, he was banned from the league for violating the league's substance abuse requirement.
 

bosox79

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Jay Williams contract was bought out, although it probably could have been voided due to him riding a motorcycle. They decided not to for PR reasons.

Fultz doesn't make enough to even consider voiding.
 

mcpickl

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Dunc'd on podcast was theorizing on some potential Fultz trades.

ORL for Terrence Ross + Jonathon Simmons
PHI for Trevor Ariza
SAC for ??? More of a SAC would facilitate the deal to some third team because of how much cap space they have
BRK for D'angelo Russell
PHI and PHX should do a Fultz/Josh Jackson swap.

See if either team can recover the asset. They make more sense positionally on the opposite teams anyway.
 

cheech13

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If Fultz is deemed unfixable the team will decline his fourth year option and then buy him out this summer. There’s no chance they’d try to void the deal. Too difficult and the PR would be a nightmare.
 

PedroKsBambino

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My guess is they buy him out and keep the more aggressive posturing private.

think both sides are now working through end-games and that includes threats of termination, suspension without pay, etc. as most of these situations do, whether or not they are made and whether or not they become public. It’ll likely get at least a little uglier unless something changes (he plays well or a real injury is identified)
 

DannyDarwinism

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HomeRunBaker

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Sirius NBA Radio this afternoon discussing how Brooklyn would be a good fit for Fultz and they could "maybe" get him for a mid-1st rounder. Needless to say the channel was changed after that segment.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Jay Williams contract was bought out, although it probably could have been voided due to him riding a motorcycle. They decided not to for PR reasons.

Fultz doesn't make enough to even consider voiding.
Jay Williams got bought out for $3M. Fultz has the prorated portion of his $12M this year plus $16M next year. I’d say saving $20M is worth tossing the idea around, but it ain’t my money.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jay Williams got bought out for $3M. Fultz has the prorated portion of his $12M this year plus $16M next year. I’d say saving $20M is worth tossing the idea around, but it ain’t my money.
Not to be a dink although I play one on the internet quite often but for accuracy sake the numbers are prorated portion of this years $8,339,880 ($6,305,763) and next years full $9,745,200 for a total remaining due of $16,050,963.
 

Nick Kaufman

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The most disconcerting part about this saga is that if this is mental which I think is the likeliest possibility, Fultz doesn't seem honest to simply recognize what is happening and instead tries ever increasingly far-fetched excuses while shifting the blame to people who try to help him.

I am beginning to suspect that there's multiple mental things going wrong with Fultz and not just his state of mind when he has to take a jumper.

I still wish him luck, but at this point he's headed for a 30 for 30 documentary about the no 1 draft pick whose shooting turned into a pumpkin.
 

the moops

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Yea, the stigma around mental health is still a huge factor in cases like this. It is a shame, but understandable. We have come a long way, but still are not close to dealing with mental health like we do physical health.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The most disconcerting part about this saga is that if this is mental which I think is the likeliest possibility, Fultz doesn't seem honest to simply recognize what is happening and instead tries ever increasingly far-fetched excuses while shifting the blame to people who try to help him.

I am beginning to suspect that there's multiple mental things going wrong with Fultz and not just his state of mind when he has to take a jumper.

I still wish him luck, but at this point he's headed for a 30 for 30 documentary about the no 1 draft pick whose shooting turned into a pumpkin.
Yea, the stigma around mental health is still a huge factor in cases like this. It is a shame, but understandable. We have come a long way, but still are not close to dealing with mental health like we do physical health.
Did you guys even read the article linked a few posts above?

As he tries to work through and compensate for the injury, it has at times resulted in a case of the ‘yips,’ especially when shooting free throws.
The new wrist "injury" is a cover, but Fultz's team is admitting he has the yips.

Not sure if it's still a "bizarre" hot take to say he has the yips when Fultz's own reps are putting that into the public. I dont think so. Hopefully it's ok to say that now...
 

bosox79

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I also wouldn't be surprised if Fultz was agreeable to a buy out. It would give him the option to sign where he wants while putting money in the bank.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Jay Williams got bought out for $3M. Fultz has the prorated portion of his $12M this year plus $16M next year. I’d say saving $20M is worth tossing the idea around, but it ain’t my money.
JWill was owed about 7.7M on his contract. http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=1737488

He also violated an explicit term of his contract, something that as of right now there is no evidence that Fultz has done.

Since it looks like his shot was changing even as early as summer league - https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/8/23/17769978/the-fultz-files-part-1 - the BMX theory is cute but probably not applicable here.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I also wouldn't be surprised if Fultz was agreeable to a buy out. It would give him the option to sign where he wants while putting money in the bank.
Are we sure he wants to play elsewhere? I know he's said he'd like a new start but he hasn't played a lot of basketball since March 2017.
 

bosox79

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Fultz ain’t voiding anything. This could easily be the last big money he ever sees.
It would be the 76ers trying to void a contract, not Fultz.

A buyout would be much different. Fultz agreeing to a $12 mil buyout would save Philly 4 mil and let Fultz become a FA a lot earlier.
 

BigSoxFan

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It would be the 76ers trying to void a contract, not Fultz.

A buyout would be much different. Fultz agreeing to a $12 mil buyout would save Philly 4 mil and let Fultz become a FA a lot earlier.
Well, I feel stupid. Read that post wrong. Agree that there is value to being a FA sooner but wondering what Fultz’s price is. $4M is a lot for a guy with his risk profile.
 

bosox79

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Assuming Fultz actually wants to play, I could see him working alongside someone like Devin Booker or Zack LaVine too. Despite his flaws, Fultz is still a pretty decent play maker.

Actually, he might not work so well with Booker anymore. The Suns have been using him in a James Harden type role, and while they aren't winning games, Booker's had success. But in general, Fultz would work for any team with a PG who is far more geared toward scoring than play making, isn't in the playoff picture, and doesn't have a Giannis/Jokic they run the offense through. Not sure how many teams actually fit the bill. He'd be kinda like Rondo (early Celtics edition) or Elfrid Payton. Just less facilitating, less turnovers and a slightly worse shooter.
 

bosox79

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Well, I feel stupid. Read that post wrong. Agree that there is value to being a FA sooner but wondering what Fultz’s price is. $4M is a lot for a guy with his risk profile.
The NBA minimum for a player with 2 years of experience this year is a little more than 1.5 mil. He would sign on with another team for the rest of the year at the prorated amount which is roughly $1.2 mil. It would be more like $1.3 mil he'd be giving up.