Maradona Documentary

Kliq

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Will debut on Oct. 1 on HBO. I'm very excited for this; the Director, Asif Kapadia has made some great documentaries in the past, including Senna on Brazilian F1 driver Ayrton Senna, and Amy, on Amy Winehouse. I think the trailer makes the Maradona film more like Senna, in that it has no formal narration or present-day interviews, just clips and soundbites from the past.

View: https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/status/1166034241613774850?s=20
 

Kliq

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What's the consensus on Maradona as an all-time great?

Is he #2 behind Messi?
Maradona is better than Messi.

Ranking soccer players as a whole is frankly ridiculous since the positions vary so much and what is considered important differs from era to era and player to player. For instance, Maradona's legacy is built on his 1986 World Cup victory and would be the first thing out of anyone's mouth when describing his greatness. At the same time, plenty of people believe Messi is the GOAT even if he never wins the World Cup. On the flip side, Messi has won the CL's four times; Maradona never won it once.

Due to the differences in play across positions, eras and countries, there is no encompassing way to evaluate soccer players against one another. There is no WAR, no OPS+ and even the number of championships can be fiercely debated.
 
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67YAZ

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What's the consensus on Maradona as an all-time great?

Is he #2 behind Messi?
"Great" is a tricky one. To me, "great" is both dominance against peers and the size of the cultural figure cut beyond the sport.

With that in mind, Pele has to be the greatest - widely acknowledged as the best player of his era and is known around the world as the first soccer global superstar. In many ways, he is the template and the measuring stick by which other stars get assessed.

Messi + Ronaldo are co-#2 - they have been the dominant players of the past decade when social media exploded and an unprecedented number of eyeballs were glued to the sport. Maybe a younger star like Mbappe will come along, win a bunch of Balon d'Ors, and find new ways to use social media to become an even bigger presence. But as for now, these guys are two of the most widely decorated, admired, and adored in history. I've watched boys out on the Maasai Steppe kick around a fabric-and-plastic-bag ball and pretend to be Messi and Ronaldo going at each other.

Maradona at #3 - burned incredibly bright at the time where the professional game started to eclipse the international game, which was tied in with club games getting broadcast & circulated on tape more widely (even if his two most iconic moments came in a World Cup match) . The controversies, failure as national team coach, bizarre behavior, and drugs have undercut his public standing, but his greatness endures through iconic moments of jaw dropping skill shown nonstop on YouTube.

Beckham at #4 - Great player, but massive global figure. Right place, right time - he became the face of ManU as ManU became the face of the EPL as the EPL became a massive global brand. Not a knock on Becks.

If we're talking most skilled player ever...yeah, Maradona is probably it.
 

Bozo Texino

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"Great" is a tricky one. To me, "great" is both dominance against peers and the size of the cultural figure cut beyond the sport.

With that in mind, Pele has to be the greatest - widely acknowledged as the best player of his era and is known around the world as the first soccer global superstar. In many ways, he is the template and the measuring stick by which other stars get assessed.

Messi + Ronaldo are co-#2 - they have been the dominant players of the past decade when social media exploded and an unprecedented number of eyeballs were glued to the sport. Maybe a younger star like Mbappe will come along, win a bunch of Balon d'Ors, and find new ways to use social media to become an even bigger presence. But as for now, these guys are two of the most widely decorated, admired, and adored in history. I've watched boys out on the Maasai Steppe kick around a fabric-and-plastic-bag ball and pretend to be Messi and Ronaldo going at each other.

Maradona at #3 - burned incredibly bright at the time where the professional game started to eclipse the international game, which was tied in with club games getting broadcast & circulated on tape more widely (even if his two most iconic moments came in a World Cup match) . The controversies, failure as national team coach, bizarre behavior, and drugs have undercut his public standing, but his greatness endures through iconic moments of jaw dropping skill shown nonstop on YouTube.

Beckham at #4 - Great player, but massive global figure. Right place, right time - he became the face of ManU as ManU became the face of the EPL as the EPL became a massive global brand. Not a knock on Becks.

If we're talking most skilled player ever...yeah, Maradona is probably it.
I think RONALDO Ronaldo is superior to Christiano Ronaldo.

Hard disagree on Beckham, too. He might be the fourth greatest to ever suit up for England, though.
 

lars10

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Maradona is better than Messi.

Ranking soccer players as a whole is frankly ridiculous since the positions vary so much and what is considered important differs from era to era and player to player. For instance, Maradona's legacy is built on his 1986 World Cup victory and would be the first thing out of anyone's mouth when describing his greatness. At the same time, plenty of people believe Messi is the GOAT even if he never wins the World Cup. On the flip side, Messi has won the CL's four times; Maradona never won it once.

Due to the differences in play across positions, eras and countries, there is no encompassing way to evaluate soccer players against one another. There is no WAR, no OPS+ and even the number of championships can be fiercely debated.
I think it's really hard to say with 100% certainty that Maradona is better than Messi...especially given the number of equivocations you yourself make. Really the only major sticking point is the World Cup.. and Messi did what he could to win that but fell short.. in the final.

I think one thing that is for certain is that the level of overall play in the world is better and faster than it was back then. ..agreed? Speed is also higher.

Personally I've never seen the overall ability to strike the ball sort of off-beat as Messi does.. he's a pure goal scorer who beats you when you're not expecting it..and in 100 different ways. He's also a brilliant passer.
Maradona seems more brute force of will and almost like a bull. He also seems to strike the ball harder than Messi.

It's hard to compare them in the club setting because of how dominant Barcelona has been.

Is there a site that counts assists? Because I'd like to see those numbers... Messi seems like a better passer to me, but I'm not sure if that's actually true.
He is a better goal scorer purely based on numbers though and it's not particularly close. His goals after dribbles are also higher.

But at the end of the day..as you said.. it's really tough to compare across decades. At the very least it's a good excuse to go down a youtube hole of brilliant goals and play.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5twveLmWhvI

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNF_5Ty2LRw
 

lars10

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"Great" is a tricky one. To me, "great" is both dominance against peers and the size of the cultural figure cut beyond the sport.

With that in mind, Pele has to be the greatest - widely acknowledged as the best player of his era and is known around the world as the first soccer global superstar. In many ways, he is the template and the measuring stick by which other stars get assessed.

Messi + Ronaldo are co-#2 - they have been the dominant players of the past decade when social media exploded and an unprecedented number of eyeballs were glued to the sport. Maybe a younger star like Mbappe will come along, win a bunch of Balon d'Ors, and find new ways to use social media to become an even bigger presence. But as for now, these guys are two of the most widely decorated, admired, and adored in history. I've watched boys out on the Maasai Steppe kick around a fabric-and-plastic-bag ball and pretend to be Messi and Ronaldo going at each other.

Maradona at #3 - burned incredibly bright at the time where the professional game started to eclipse the international game, which was tied in with club games getting broadcast & circulated on tape more widely (even if his two most iconic moments came in a World Cup match) . The controversies, failure as national team coach, bizarre behavior, and drugs have undercut his public standing, but his greatness endures through iconic moments of jaw dropping skill shown nonstop on YouTube.

Beckham at #4 - Great player, but massive global figure. Right place, right time - he became the face of ManU as ManU became the face of the EPL as the EPL became a massive global brand. Not a knock on Becks.

If we're talking most skilled player ever...yeah, Maradona is probably it.
Isn't this list more recency biased as well?

Where do the old greats fit on here? I mean I still buy Beckenbauer cleats. George Best? Johan Cruyff? And I guess we are only really talking offensive players on this list?
 

Bozo Texino

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Isn't this list more recency biased as well?

Where do the old greats fit on here? I mean I still buy Beckenbauer cleats. George Best? Johan Cruyff? And I guess we are only really talking offensive players on this list?
Beckenbauer and Cruyff are top five.

I'd likely go...

5: Cruyff
4. Beckenbauer
3. Pele
2. Maradona
1. Messi

How do keepers get ranked on these things? That's the real tricky question.
 

Kliq

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Y'all are really sleeping on Alfredo di Stefano and Franc Puskas.
 

Zomp

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These lists are all a matter of taste, however I will say that Messi and Cristiano are so close to each other that for one to be #1 on someone's list and the other not to make the top 5 says a lot more about the person making the list.

I never saw Maradona, Cruyff, etc... play so its hard for me to rank them. To compare era's are tough since its not like baseball where statistics tell most of the story.
 

Bozo Texino

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Y'all are really sleeping on Alfredo di Stefano and Franc Puskas.
Nope. I'm still fine with my top 5. I might put Platini above them, too. Maybe even Maldini, if only because defenders deserve more love.

I just don't know how to rate players like Buffon and Yashin.
 

67YAZ

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Isn't this list more recency biased as well?

Where do the old greats fit on here? I mean I still buy Beckenbauer cleats. George Best? Johan Cruyff? And I guess we are only really talking offensive players on this list?
I agree with the recency bias. It tilts this way because I think soccer is still growing globally. I defined “greatest” as a mix of dominance over peers and cultural importance.

I’d contrast this with baseball, which has been in decline as an important cultural institution in the US for at least 30 years, maybe 50. To that extent, I’d wager no baseball players will ever be as great as Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson. Mike Trout could end up the most dominant and best baseball player ever...and be a minor figure in American social life because baseball just isn’t that important anymore.

But we can make other lists. I’m inclined to say Maradona is the most skilled player ever. That Cruyff is the most influential player/individual ever in the game. I think ranking he “best” across time is a fraught exercise, but we might identify the best player each year and get a sense of who was most dominant for the longest stretches of time. And if I had my pick of any player in history to build a team around, I’d be tempted to build around Beckenbauer.

Edit: Actually, if Trout were to come out as gay or transition genders...that would propel him.
 
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Kliq

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I think one thing that is for certain is that the level of overall play in the world is better and faster than it was back then. ..agreed? Speed is also higher.
Quality of competition over the years is interesting to evaluate. I think from a literal standpoint, soccer players are clearly better in 2019 than they have ever been in history. The game is more global, the athletes are bigger, stronger and faster, and the tactics are more advanced.

At the same time, various changes of the game have led to some shifting balances in the quality of competition. For example, today the EPL is the most diverse league in the world with the highest percentage of foreign players. However, during the inaugural season there were only 13 players total from outside the UK and Ireland. Since that first season, the EPL has obviously become a lot more aggressive when it comes to signing the best talent from around the globe; which in turn would decrease the collection of the best talent in other leagues over that same time frame, at least in theory. Even though the average player is significantly better than they were 30 years ago, it is reasonable to believe that the La Liga Maradona played in was actually (for its era) more difficult than the La Liga that Messi plays in, because there are players in Maradona's time that stayed in Spain when in Messi's time, they likely would have been purchased by a EPL club (not to mention a club like PSG coming into the mix).

The most frequent argument against Pele as the GOAT is that he never played in Europe. However, during Pele's time period, the European leagues, with the exception of Argentines in La Liga and Italy, were almost entirely comprised of domestic players. So if you accept that Brazil produced the deepest reservoir of talent during Pele's career (which it almost certainly did) than Pele actually played against BETTER competition than his contemporaries in Europe.

Interestingly enough, di Stefano, who played during the Colombian El Dorado period, arguably played against the best competition in history (relative to its era). From 1949-1954, the Colombian Football League broke away from all international governing boards and broke a million rules by bringing in the world's best players for huge wages. There really hasn't been another period in history when one league became that competitive from a talent standpoint, with the current era of the EPL having way more money than anybody else the closest comparison.

Soccer is unique when it comes in general to quality of competition because with the exception of the CL knockout stage, there is no real guarantee that teams are facing the best competition the world has to offer. When James Harden averages 35 ppg, we know that he did it against the very best competition possible. When Simon Biles wins a gold medal, we know that she had to beat the very best gymnasts int he world. When Lionel Messi scores a hat trick against a club that has on 1/50th of Barcelona's transfer budget, it is just different.
 

Kliq

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Also deserves to be mentioned; Ronaldo clasico was maybe the most singularly talented player of all-time. His Age 20 season at Barcelona, 47 goals in 49 games, was godly and he was the perfect combination of speed, power and technical skill. I forget who said it, but the defining quote about Ronaldo to me was "He wasn't just a man with the ball, he was a herd." Even after his knees were shot and he was fat, he came back in 2002 and was still the best player in the world.
 

Spacemans Bong

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I think RONALDO Ronaldo is superior to Christiano Ronaldo.

Hard disagree on Beckham, too. He might be the fourth greatest to ever suit up for England, though.
Bobby Charlton, Bobby Moore, Gordon Banks, Peter Shilton, Tom Finney, Stan Matthews, Jimmy Greaves, Gary Lineker, Billy Wright, Kevin Keegan, Alan Shearer, Ashley Cole, Gary Neville, Rio Ferdinand, Johnny Haynes, Alan Ball, George Cohen, Emlyn Hughes, Kenny Sansom, Ray Wilkins, Paul Scholes, Michael Owen, Chris Waddle, David Platt, Bryan Robson.

I'd take all those players over Beckham. And that's not really a diss of Beckham, he was a good player and notably took playing for England seriously at a time when players seemed to dislike the pressure and distraction from their club efforts. Just England have had a lot of good players.
 

Spacemans Bong

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I never got around to seeing the documentary while it was in UK cinemas, but I've heard mixed reviews. It's not BAD, but it's a bit like Senna in that Kapadia will pad the story out with the narrative he wants (Alain Prost memorably suffered a total hatchet job in Senna, and was vocally unhappy about this), and you might see some cinematic license and pandering, eg in the way Senna's onboards were always of Monaco (because that's the most famous F1 circuit) and how they used an onboard from a 1989 qualifying lap to simulate Senna's memorable brain fart. I've heard similar about Maradona. That doesn't mean it's a waste of money though.
 

Spacemans Bong

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The thing about quality of competition is it goes both ways. Maradona didn't win four European Cups, but that was because he spent the prime of his career at Napoli, which would simply never happen today. He won a UEFA Cup back when that was a big deal, because only the league champion got into the European Cup and you often had the REAL best team in Europe playing in the UEFA Cup. They beat sides like Lokomotive Leipzig, who sound like a cupcake side to today's fan, but Loksche made the Cup Winners' Cup final the next year and only lost 1-0 to an Ajax side featuring Marco van Basten, Frank Rijkaard, Arnold Muhren, Aron Winter and a 17 year old named Dennis Bergkamp. So they weren't crap. Before the Bosman ruling, smaller clubs could be competitive in the transfer market and hold on to their players for longer than today.

However, Maradona dragged a bunch of bums to the 86 World Cup and 90 final is overegging it. Ruggeri, Olarticoechea, Burruchaga and Valdano were good players, they just don't have the eye-popping CV (except for Valdano, who played for Real Madrid) that today's players have. With only 3 foreigners - including other EU players - allowed in a team, a damn good second striker like Burruchaga was only getting to Nantes, instead of PSG or Juventus.

People are absolutely sleeping on di Stefano and Puskas though. Puskas and Cruijff are possibly the two most influential players in the history of the game, no two teams caused utter paradigm shifts in the game like the 50s Hungarians and 70s Dutch did. We are still, in almost every way, coming to grips with Total Football. Brazil's greatest tactical contribution doesn't involve Pele at all - it was a back four with attacking fullbacks (which is why Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos are criminally underrated).

Also, Michel Platini is deeply underrated now, due to him being a corrupt dick and the rise of Zidane. But Platini won three Ballon d'Ors and had the greatest tournament performance ever. Nine goals in five games for France's first major trophy win, Euro 84.
 

coremiller

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I'm not sure whether Messi or Maradona is more talented. Messi has certainly has had the better top-class career, because he's not an insane drug addict and has taken care of his body. Messi is 32 and is still the world's best player; Maradona's career as a top player was basically over at 30 because he got banned from Napoli for for cocaine use.

It's not at all clear that Maradona's body could have held up in the modern game. Players run about twice as far during a match as they did during the 80s, due to a combo of the back pass law (which keeps the ball in play for a lot longer) and pressing. The physical fitness requirements are much greater. Seriously, watch a game from the 80s sometime; you'll be amazed at how slow the play is and how much time on the ball everyone had. The great Brazilian midfielder Socrates was a chain-smoker (it was a big deal that he quit smoking to prepare for the 1982 world cup); obviously, nobody could consistently play that way at a high level now. Maradona was never much one for fitness (he frequently skipped training sessions), and he may have been just too fat and slow to keep up. You can see it just looking at the players: just about everyone is ripped now, and anyone who isn't immediately sticks out.

Fat Ronaldo is a what-if story; if he hadn't blown out his knees, who knows what might have happened. He was still great afterwards but not GOAT-level.

These lists are all a matter of taste, however I will say that Messi and Cristiano are so close to each other that for one to be #1 on someone's list and the other not to make the top 5 says a lot more about the person making the list.

I never saw Maradona, Cruyff, etc... play so its hard for me to rank them. To compare era's are tough since its not like baseball where statistics tell most of the story.
I would have Messi #1 and Cristiano on the edge of my top 5. I think there is a clear top 4 of Messi, Pele, Maradona, and Cruyff (probably in that order) and then a lot of competition for the fifth spot (Cristiano, Platini, Maldini, Puskas, Di Stefano, Zidane, Van Basten, etc.)

I think it's pretty clear that Messi and Ronaldo are not that close. Messi is a much better player than Ronaldo, because, while both are incredibly great goal-scorers, Messi is also the world's best creative midfielder at the same time. Messi is what you get if you combined Ronaldo and Xavi into one player. That should be impossible, but somehow Messi exists.