Manning Legacy: Scrotal Recall

Ed Hillel

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Well, yeah you can pay a lot for a bogus script and it'll run a thousand plus a month, or I can give you a number and you can have it by the end of the week for $300.
Not to mention Bob Kravitz said he went to this very doctor, who apparently prescribed him HGH for back pain and general fatigue.
 

dhappy42

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Manning has enlisted the help of ESPN's Chris Mortensen and hired former Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer as a PR flack. Doesn't deny the story that his wife received HGH, just says he didn't take them.

I hereby find that it is more probable than not the Manning used HGH.
 

mwonow

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Manning has enlisted the help of ESPN's Chris Mortensen and hired former Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer as a PR flack. Doesn't deny the story that his wife received HGH, just says he didn't take them.

I hereby find that it is more probable than not the Manning used HGH.
Has anyone ever seen Mortensen and Dr David Chao in the same room at the same time? Could it be that there's only one source of completely unreliable information, living a double life - pretending to be a doctor by day, pretending to be a journalist by night?
 

86spike

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I'm hoping spike starts a new thread where he offers us his critiques on books he hasn't read, restaurants he's never eaten in, etc :)
Report says Sly worked at Guyer in 2011 and Al Jazeera says they checked and confirmed this.

Guyer Institute says Sly was an unpaid intern in 2013 and never worked there when Manning was a patient.

He said, he said.

Which is true? They both can't be true.

Why the living fuck would anyone need to sit through a TV special to understand the massive conflicting takes here?

Use some common sense.
 

86spike

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And for the record, I don't give a shit about Manning or his legacy. I am, however, a fan of common sense and encourage its exercise in those I interact with.
 

Rusty13

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Just finished watching the AJ piece. The Department of Justice is pretty much going to have to investigate this now for possible criminal charges of these suppliers. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Manning might want to simply stop talking about this now. And the Packers/Clay Matthews angle may have more legs here than anything else.
 

djbayko

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I'm not sure why Manning gets total benefit of the doubt here with these "he sounded totally believable."
In the end that may be true and innocent until proven guilty etc. etc. but this guy isn't exactly a paragon of honesty and integrity. Remember the whole trainer episode at Tennessee? In a dick move he voided the settlement and buried the trainer in his book causing her to get fired.
The guy is an ass and knows how to manipulate the narrative and the media.

I don't really give a shit about whether he did or didn't but if hes full of shit and AJZ has the balls to back up their journalists (if indeed they did their job) i will hardly shed a tear for this asshole or for the NFL that will be twisting itself into knots reconciling this crisis with the one they manufactured in the post-season last year.
If the last decade+ of PED accusations in various sports has taught us anything, it's that everyone who uses lies about it. Who do we have who's told the truth without being forced to? Has there been anyone other than Andy Pettite? And who knows if he was really telling the whole truth or was just the first one to come up with the idea of a plausible excuse that minimizes his use and buys sympathy from the public.

And any psychologist will tell you that humans are terrible lie detectors, yet they all believe that they are very skilled. Hell, many people thought that Tom Brady was lying in his press conference about DFG, and most of us have logically concluded that he's innocent.

As an athlete, once you make the decision to start using PEDs, due to the social stigma around them, you are committing to a potentially lifelong lie. Many of these guys have thought about how they'd react countless times, maybe even had to practice their answers in real life situations with curious gym buddies or not-too-close relatives.

I'm not saying Peyton Manning definitely used PEDs (my suspicion is that he did). I'm just saying that his outright denial shouldn't really move the needle at all.
 
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djbayko

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Report says Sly worked at Guyer in 2011 and Al Jazeera says they checked and confirmed this.

Guyer Institute says Sly was an unpaid intern in 2013 and never worked there when Manning was a patient.

He said, he said.

Which is true? They both can't be true.

Why the living fuck would anyone need to sit through a TV special to understand the massive conflicting takes here?

Use some common sense.
You realize that if this story is true, just as Sly had motive to recant everything he said on hidden video, Guyer also has incentive to obfuscate the truth, right? There are bright people applying logic who disagree with you. The video is compelling, and it's quite possible that Peyton Manning used PEDs...much more possible than we thought it was yesterday morning. Yes, it would be wonderful to have more evidence, and we'll have to see how this plays out. But you're getting all worked up, and frankly, being pretty condescending by acting like your thoughts on the matter are the only way.
 

86spike

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You realize that if this story is true, just as Sly had motive to recant everything he said on hidden video, Guyer also has incentive to obfuscate the truth, right? There are bright people applying logic who disagree with you. The video is compelling, and it's quite possible that Peyton Manning used PEDs...much more possible than we thought it was yesterday morning. Yes, it would be wonderful to have more evidence, and we'll have to see how this plays out. But you're getting all worked up, and frankly, being pretty condescending by acting like your thoughts on the matter are the only way.
I await Al Jazeera's proof that Sly worked at the Guyer Institute in 2011.

Carry on.
 

Lowrielicious

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Who do we have who's told the truth without being forced to? Has there been anyone other than Andy Pettite?
I know it is off topic, but in case you are suggesting that Pettite came out of his own accord to admit to HGH use, that is definitely not what happened. He admitted to use in 2002 after he was forced to do so by evidence. He lied at that time saying it was the only time. He then admitted to a second time in 2004 only after further evidence:

Grimsley named Pettite as an HGH user in 2006 and he was named in the Mitchell report in 2007. The report stating he received 2-4 injections from McNamee in 2002. Pettite than came out and admitted to two injections in 2002. "obligation to return to the team as quickly as possible" blah blah blah. Denied any further use of HGH through his career or any other PED.

Then in 2008 an affidavit made public as part of House of Reps hearing he admitted to two additional injections of HGH in 2004 which were prescribed to his seriously ill father.
 

mt8thsw9th

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Manning has enlisted the help of ESPN's Chris Mortensen and hired former Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer as a PR flack. Doesn't deny the story that his wife received HGH, just says he didn't take them.

I hereby find that it is more probable than not the Manning used HGH.
It's good that ESPN has been able to get out ahead of this and give Manning airtime to have his side of things be the news. I see they've learned a lot from what they did to Brady.
 

djbayko

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I know it is off topic, but in case you are suggesting that Pettite came out of his own accord to admit to HGH use, that is definitely not what happened. He admitted to use in 2002 after he was forced to do so by evidence. He lied at that time saying it was the only time. He then admitted to a second time in 2004 only after further evidence:

Grimsley named Pettite as an HGH user in 2006 and he was named in the Mitchell report in 2007. The report stating he received 2-4 injections from McNamee in 2002. Pettite than came out and admitted to two injections in 2002. "obligation to return to the team as quickly as possible" blah blah blah. Denied any further use of HGH through his career or any other PED.

Then in 2008 an affidavit made public as part of House of Reps hearing he admitted to two additional injections of HGH in 2004 which were prescribed to his seriously ill father.
That's not what I meant, but I understand why you were confused by my statement. I don't know of any athlete who's come out and admitted PED use without being cornered. What I meant was that he is one of the few who admitted to it the first time. With most, it's deny, deny, deny..."it must have been a rogue protein shake" or "bad testing procedures".
 

Devizier

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Just finished watching the AJ piece. The Department of Justice is pretty much going to have to investigate this now for possible criminal charges of these suppliers. This is only the tip of the iceberg. Manning might want to simply stop talking about this now. And the Packers/Clay Matthews angle may have more legs here than anything else.
Mike Neal is the guy that should expect the feds at his door. Also, Dustin Keller is probably in deep doo-doo.
 

EricFeczko

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That's not what I meant, but I understand why you were confused by my statement. I don't know of any athlete who's come out and admitted PED use without being cornered. What I meant was that he is one of the few who admitted to it the first time. With most, it's deny, deny, deny..."it must have been a rogue protein shake" or "bad testing procedures".
I take it Rodney Harrison doesn't count then?
 

Devizier

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I take it Rodney Harrison doesn't count then?
Wait, what?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2999994
According to the New York Daily News, Wilson admitted receiving HGH while working for the Chicago Bears from 2004-06. Citing sources, the News said Harrison and Wilson were subjects of an investigation by the Albany (N.Y.) County District Attorney's
office into an Internet drug scam.

According to ESPN's Chris Mortensen, a law enforcement source said Harrison admitted he began using HGH two years ago to recover from injuries. The same source said prosecutors allowed an NFL security official to sit in on a conference with Harrison earlier in the week. At that time, Harrison made his admission and the official reported it to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, which led to a Friday hearing.
 

Bone Chips

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HGH is highly regulated and CANNOT BE PRESCRIBED off-label. According to one of the leading American experts who has treated children for growth hormone defiency, HGH can only be prescribed to ADULTS for three medical conditions: 1. Growth hormone deficiency. 2. short-bowel syndrome. 3. HIV wasting.

If Manning's wife got HGH sent to her, and she doesn't have any of those conditions, that's a HUGE smoking gun.
And in the documentary this expert is also asked how often someone in need of legal HGH from a doctor would get it from an anti-aging clinic like Peyton's wife apparently did, to which he responded emphatically, "NEVER".

The unfortunate reality in all of this is that, just like some people in this very thread, most Americans are not going to bother spending 45 minutes of their lives watching this documentary.
 

BigSoxFan

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Keller and Neal were teammates at Purdue for a couple years. Wonder if there are any connections there. Just finished the documentary and thought that AJ did a pretty good job but not much evidence was really provided. However, I think there is enough for the Feds to dig around to see if they can find something.
 

JimD

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The immediate comparison to this case that came to mind was Roger Clemens. All-time great player, had a late-career resurgence, accused of HGH use, loudly proclaimed his innocence. Rocket of course actually sued his accuser, but gradually fell from grace and isn't close to gaining HOF entry. If AJ can prove that this guy worked there in 2011, I doubt Peyton will be able to slide so effortlessly past this scandal.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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Keller and Neal were teammates at Purdue for a couple years. Wonder if there are any connections there. Just finished the documentary and thought that AJ did a pretty good job but not much evidence was really provided. However, I think there is enough for the Feds to dig around to see if they can find something.
I don't know what more an investigation would want than admittance of wrongdoing on tape, ACTUAL SUPPLY AND SALES OF ILLEGAL STEROIDS and NARCOTICS on tape with evidence being kept and recorded by Al Jazeera, referrals from doctors/suppliers to other doctors/suppliers (on tape), DELIVERIES of steroids, etc. They'll have texts and phone call records to look at. There were at least 10 people admitting to stuff on camera and then coming through with the drugs.
 

lithos2003

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I await Al Jazeera's proof that Sly worked at the Guyer Institute in 2011.

Carry on.
Florio is on it - http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/27/reporter-stands-by-claim-that-charles-sly-worked-at-guyer-institute-in-2011/

Relevant piece:
“Both Manning and the operator of the anti-aging clinic maintained today that the informant worked at the clinic only in 2013,” Peter King said during NBC’s Football Night in America. “I talked to the Al Jazeera reporter late this afternoon who did this story and she told me that they have confirmation from the clinic that the informant’s employment records say that he worked there in 2011.”
If they have the employment records, that would be proof enough, no?
 

BigSoxFan

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There is definitely enough red meat here for the Florio's of the world to do some digging. Sly even says that he's not sure why the Guyer clinic hasn't been closed down. Definitely comes across as implying that some shady stuff went on there.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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I think 86Spike should have to watch the Al Jazeera doc while we watch him watching it (like this):
 

SumnerH

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According to one of the leading American experts who has treated children for growth hormone defiency, HGH can only be prescribed to ADULTS for three medical conditions: 1. Growth hormone deficiency. 2. short-bowel syndrome. 3. HIV wasting.
There are a whole bunch of other approved uses: intrauterine growth retardation, Prader Willi syndrome, chronic renal failure, idiopathic short stature, Turner's syndrome, etc.
 

johnmd20

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And in the documentary this expert is also asked how often someone in need of legal HGH from a doctor would get it from an anti-aging clinic like Peyton's wife apparently did, to which he responded emphatically, "NEVER".

The unfortunate reality in all of this is that, just like some people in this very thread, most Americans are not going to bother spending 45 minutes of their lives watching this documentary.
Drama! There is no unfortunate reality. This is absolutely nothing. There are no broken morals here, despite sportswriters always gnashing their teeth about PED's. This doesn't speak to a larger issue with this country or the world. It's a joke. Almost every player is taking something. That isn't really a guess, look at the players. Look at their size. Look at their speed. Look at their ability to play every 5-7 days after getting blown up every Sunday.

I don't like Peyton and I think he's a douche and I have always felt he was always about him and not the team. But that doesn't change the fact that even if he was taking HGH every day for his entire career, it really doesn't matter.
 

pappymojo

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Drama! There is no unfortunate reality. This is absolutely nothing. There are no broken morals here, despite sportswriters always gnashing their teeth about PED's. This doesn't speak to a larger issue with this country or the world. It's a joke. Almost every player is taking something. That isn't really a guess, look at the players. Look at their size. Look at their speed. Look at their ability to play every 5-7 days after getting blown up every Sunday.

I don't like Peyton and I think he's a douche and I have always felt he was always about him and not the team. But that doesn't change the fact that even if he was taking HGH every day for his entire career, it really doesn't matter.
This seems like a simplistic take. Morality aside, there is a rule that carries a specific penalty. Regardless of the actions of every other player in the league, if it can proven that Peyton broke this rule, the penalty should be applied.

I suspect that the defense will be that Peyton didn't take the drugs, his wife did.
 

86spike

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Florio is on it - http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/27/reporter-stands-by-claim-that-charles-sly-worked-at-guyer-institute-in-2011/

Relevant piece:


If they have the employment records, that would be proof enough, no?
Alright they're getting closer. Now AJ needs to show their work.

If they called the clinic as if checking employment references and had someone at Guyer tell them Sly worked there in 2011 and they have it on tape, it is a major blow to Manning/Guyer's denial.
 
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johnmd20

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This seems like a simplistic take. Morality aside, there is a rule that carries a specific penalty. Regardless of the actions of every other player in the league, if it can proven that Peyton broke this rule, the penalty should be applied.

I suspect that the defense will be that Peyton didn't take the drugs, his wife did.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be punished. They can do that. I don't really care. The point is, Bone Chips was moralizing about America, about how people wouldn't watch the documentary and that somehow meant we're all the problem. The "unfortunate reality". And I think that's garbage.

There is no unfortunate reality. This is life. Things happen. It doesn't "mean" anything if people do or do not watch the documentary.
 

natpastime162

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I'm not saying he shouldn't be punished. They can do that. I don't really care. The point is, Bone Chips was moralizing about America, about how people wouldn't watch the documentary and that somehow meant we're all the problem. The "unfortunate reality". And I think that's garbage.

There is no unfortunate reality. This is life. Things happen. It doesn't "mean" anything if people do or do not watch the documentary.
I don't think my coworkers can get past the part where the story is being reported by Al Jazeera.
 

Van Everyman

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Florio is on it - http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/27/reporter-stands-by-claim-that-charles-sly-worked-at-guyer-institute-in-2011/

Relevant piece:


If they have the employment records, that would be proof enough, no?
It seems like a giant red flag that Guyer employed a guy like Sly at all. Even if he was an "unpaid intern," the fact that he had some sleazy doping guy who has prescribed PEDs to professional athletes like Teagarden milling about his "pseudo-pharmacy" should call into question his whole operation and any athlete who goes through Guyer's doors.
 

Bone Chips

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Drama! There is no unfortunate reality. This is absolutely nothing. There are no broken morals here, despite sportswriters always gnashing their teeth about PED's. This doesn't speak to a larger issue with this country or the world. It's a joke. Almost every player is taking something. That isn't really a guess, look at the players. Look at their size. Look at their speed. Look at their ability to play every 5-7 days after getting blown up every Sunday.

I don't like Peyton and I think he's a douche and I have always felt he was always about him and not the team. But that doesn't change the fact that even if he was taking HGH every day for his entire career, it really doesn't matter.
Idiotic on so many levels... and scary that it would be coming from a guy with "md" in his name. Glad you find drug use to be such a joke. I'm not sure which argument of yours I like better - the "everybody does it" one or the "victimless crime" angle. Either way, it's pure ignorance. Here's some more drama to tickle you - http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2224511-the-cautionary-tale-of-ken-caminiti-the-steroid-eras-first-truth-teller
 

luckiestman

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Idiotic on so many levels... and scary that it would be coming from a guy with "md" in his name. Glad you find drug use to be such a joke. I'm not sure which argument of yours I like better - the "everybody does it" one or the "victimless crime" angle. Either way, it's pure ignorance. Here's some more drama to tickle you - http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2224511-the-cautionary-tale-of-ken-caminiti-the-steroid-eras-first-truth-teller

Well, I agree with everything he (johnmd20) said. Why are you bringing up Caminiti who was a boozer and addicted to pain killers and overdosed when the thread is about Manning using HGH.
 

dcmissle

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I don't think my coworkers can get past the part where the story is being reported by Al Jazeera.
Yup. AJ could have this story cold, demonstrate that it acted with nothing approaching actual malice, and Peyton could win a case before any jury in this country, hands down.

That is why judges and appellate courts have major gate keeping roles in libel and defamation cases. Blood lust stands as a major impediment to freedom at times.
 

lexrageorge

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PED use in the NFL is a fact of life that is unlikely to change anytime soon. Peyton Manning is hardly the only NFL QB to be using PEDs. I'm not saying that's a good thing; however, the reality is that it's been going on a very long time in the NFL, most people knew about it, and hardly anyone has done anything about it. I would argue that people care a lot less about PED use in the NFL than they do in MLB for whatever reason.

So I don't believe johnmd20's take is all that unreasonable.

I'm not defending Manning, and I have no real problem if he's punished as per the league's policy if it's proven that he did take HGH. However, any deep investigation into PED usage among NFL players is just as likely to point to usage among players from the Patriots as it is from any other team. So this definitely goes into the be careful what you wish for territory.
 

gregl

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Drama! There is no unfortunate reality. This is absolutely nothing. There are no broken morals here, despite sportswriters always gnashing their teeth about PED's. This doesn't speak to a larger issue with this country or the world. It's a joke. Almost every player is taking something. That isn't really a guess, look at the players. Look at their size. Look at their speed. Look at their ability to play every 5-7 days after getting blown up every Sunday.

I don't like Peyton and I think he's a douche and I have always felt he was always about him and not the team. But that doesn't change the fact that even if he was taking HGH every day for his entire career, it really doesn't matter.
Isn't the unfortunate part simply that people may buy Manning's excuses because they don't take time to hear the evidence against him? I didn't think the post was about morals. I thought the problem was the simplification of the story and the effectiveness of the "he's a good guy" angle.

It's similar to DFG except in that case the dumbed down version of the story was the opposite... the pats are cheaters and must be guilty. Don't need to read the report to come to that conclusion.
 

pappymojo

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There are a lot of different discussions going on.

1) Is the report reliable?
2) Does the report, even if true, show that Peyton used HGH (for example, could his wife have been using them to get pregnant)?
3) Is there enough information for the NFL to take action against Peyton?
4) Is the NFL's action (or lack thereof) consistent with their actions in the deflation story?
5) Is the media's reaction to this story consistent with their reaction to the deflation story?
6) Are the NFL rules regarding usage by players of HGH in particular antiquated?
7) Are the NFL rules regarding usage by players of PEDs in general antiquated?
 
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1) I'd say so. Al Jazeera is a reputable news agency.
2) Not conclusively, no. Its mostly a collection of data points that portray curious if not sketchy behavior on the part of the Mannings with regards to a dubious medical professional. And Manning is not the focus of the investigation, just something that sorta came up unexpectedly.
3) Not even close. But a) there's enough that they should investigate Guyer et al and their connection to NFL players (not just Manning), and b) this is the NFL, so who the hell knows what they'll think is the right thing to do.
4) So far, not even close. I'd like to think it's because they learned something from how shitty they acted during DFG, but I haven't been that naive since I was four.
5) See 4
6) I think it's more that the enforcement of the policy is antiquated than the policy itself is. By design.
7) See 6
 

Bone Chips

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Well, I agree with everything he (johnmd20) said. Why are you bringing up Caminiti who was a boozer and addicted to pain killers and overdosed when the thread is about Manning using HGH.
I'm not going to engage anymore in the debate about PED's not being harmful or dangerous. Been in two communities the last 30 years - bodybuilding and drug recovery - and have seen way too much of this. If you choose not to believe it's a big deal, fine. But there's a reason this shit is illegal.

Aside from the obvious danger is the inescapable unfairness issue. Yes, it does sound hokey but it really does get to the very essence of competitive sports and insuring a level playing field. And that in and of itself is what makes this an important sports story.
 

Devizier

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There are a lot of different discussions going on.
3) Is there enough information for the NFL to take action against Peyton?
I know it's asking too much to ask people to watch the documentary, but Manning really isn't the central figure in this case.

If I were an investigator and the league showed a genuine interest in pursing this case (unlikely, unless AJ forces their hand), the primary guys that I'd be looking into are Dustin Keller (who is retired, and obviously has nothing to gain by cooperating with an investigation, unless criminal charges are involved) and Mike Neal (seems to be a central figure in getting the Packers access to Sly).
 

johnmd20

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I'm not going to engage anymore in the debate about PED's not being harmful or dangerous. Been in two communities the last 30 years - bodybuilding and drug recovery - and have seen way too much of this. If you choose not to believe it's a big deal, fine. But there's a reason this shit is illegal.

Aside from the obvious danger is the inescapable unfairness issue. Yes, it does sound hokey but it really does get to the very essence of competitive sports and insuring a level playing field. And that in and of itself is what makes this an important sports story.
It's a fake line, the 'level playing field' argument. It's arbitrary and not very helpful. The playing field will never officially be level when you're talking about contracts that go into the hundreds of millions of dollars, but it certainly is level enough. Because every player is doing something. That something might be diet and exercise and yoga and drinking a lot of water. And another might be taking HGH. I am clear that I couldn't care less what people take.

I think it's extraordinarily naive to think there is going to be a PED free level playing field when the reward is lottery kind of money. I'm knowledgeable enough to know people will do what it takes. And I'm not even fully sure taking HGH is bad for you. It seems to do some amazing things, in fact.

And people die from drugs. Yes, I know. I've been sober for over 11 years. I think crack and heroin are very dangerous. I don't think that has anything to do with this thread or the point I was making and it's kind of an odd tangent.
 

NortheasternPJ

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1) I'd say so. Al Jazeera is a reputable news agency.
Not according to Mike Ditka! Who's my go to source on credible news agencies.

“Here’s the thing that bothers me: Al Jazeera is not a credible news organization. They’re out there spreading garbage. That’s what they do. yet we give them credibility by talking about it. They’re garbage. That’s what they are.”
 

Ed Hillel

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The credibility of the news agency is arguably irrelevant in this case anyway, since the unwitting source is recorded. Why does it matter who is reporting it?

As for Sly, he comes off to me as a guy lying now to cover his ass. His story to Mort makes little to no sense. He rattled off names to "test" a guy he thought was a reporter? That's like a drug dealer telling someone he suspects is an undercover cop that he's been doling out shipments to mafia dons. Why the fuck would anyone do that?

There is enough evidence now that this doctor and Sly were handing out HGH to athletes. There still needs to be more investigation into exactly how far the chain goes and with whom it is connected. Any athlete connected to this doctor is going to be stained by the time this is done, whether they were taking HGH or not.