Manchester United 13/14: Mid-table or Bust

Vinho Tinto · Mar 25, 2014

Don't worry. He's drowning his tears with money.

soxfan121 · Mar 25, 2014

Well, shit. I guess Fergie was the greatest manager who ever was. Watching that shit show, plus Sideshow Bob, convinces me that Sir Baconnose was a fucking miracle worker.

SoxFanInCali · Mar 25, 2014

In 5 home games against Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Everton, Manchester United scored a total of 1 goal. And it came from a corner.

In 13 games against the current top 9, they've taken a total of 7 points (4 against Arsenal).

fletcherpost · Mar 26, 2014

Today millions of men get to act like women as they go window shopping for a new football team.

Anyway, last night represents a sea change, a turning point. why? Cos Scholes entered the fray. I thought it a little odd at the time, Scholes doing punditry for SKY TV on the day of the derby his team were expected to lose. He did punditry on the game with Souness then hung around for the highlights show, where he was joined by Gary Neville. The telegraph wrote an article that covered this whilst also suggesting that we maybe be seeing the initial stages of a 'silent coup' - fascinating stuff, but i watched Scholes doing his pundit thing and man you could see he was in pain. He's very understated but he knows football.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10723658/Paul-Scholes-and-Gary-Neville-take-first-step-towards-silent-coup-to-wrest-back-control-of-Manchester-United.html

"Planned or not – and in fairness only a mischievous mind would argue this was calculated - it was impossible to escape the conclusion Scholes and Neville were taking their first tentative step towards a silent coup to wrestle back control of their club in the wake of a dismal Premier League season."

"Scholes often had the demeanour of a teenager who found himself sitting with his parents while watching an adult movie scene. His head was bowed, he shuffled in his chair and every time he was cut short for a commercial break he looked like he might take the opportunity to do a runner. Despite this, with his first nods and grimaces whenever Graeme Souness was speaking, Scholes immediately became a more insightful pundit in 60 seconds than Garth Crooks has managed in 25 years. When he did speak, you wanted to increase the volume, pause and rewind. Much of it was due to the sheer novelty value, but you can’t beat people who know what they’re talking about. It makes life so much more tolerable for everyone"

"Perhaps it is misguided to see Scholes’s move into punditry in seditious terms, but with every withering (and wholly accurate) comment he demonstrated the detachment between the United he knows and the one he was confronted with last night."

And whilst we're at it with the Telegraph...31 reasons why Moyes must leave...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/managers/david-moyes/10709107/31-reasons-David-Moyes-must-leave-Manchester-United.html

27 Moyes did not help his cause by moving on all of Ferguson's backroom staff and surrounding himself with familiar faces. Dismissing the experience of Rene Meulensteen and Mick Phelan, among others, and replacing them with Steve Round, Phil Neville and co has left himself horribly exposed. Eric Steele, the discarded goalkeeping coach observed: "You had the United perspective - [Ferguson] saying, 'Keep what we've got, keep the continuity, work with them and they'll guide you through. You're taking on a massive machine here. You've gone from Marks and Spencer's to Harrods."

I think Moyes is in trouble, i think it's clear to all that it was a bad appointment, Fergie got it wrong...it happens.

Nick Kaufman · Mar 30, 2014

Interesting article on United and Moyes.

Over the past 15 seasons, United have won on average 77 percent of their home matches, taking 46.7 points at home out of the 57 available in a season. In the past five seasons they have been even more dominant, taking on average 50 out of 57 points at home. This season, they’ve won 40 percent of their home matches, taking 21 of 45 points.

Moyes’ first major initiative was to dismiss Ferguson’s coaching staff and install the technical team he’d brought with him from Everton.

He had a reputation as a hands-on coach who pushed his players hard in training. According to Phil Neville, who played for Moyes at Everton, players sometimes ran so hard in preseason training that they vomited. “The Horse Shoe” was a Moyes preseason institution. Neville describes it as “a series of sharp runs that cover distances between 100 meters and 300 meters and there is barely any time to catch your breath in between. By the time you are on your eighth sprint, your legs feel like jelly and buckle, while your lungs are burning. The manager, meanwhile, simply laughs as you collapse.”

These preseason rigors appear to be based on a piece of 19th-century wisdom: “that which does not kill us makes us stronger.” The science of physiology has moved on since Nietzsche coined the phrase. These days, not everyone believes that running until you vomit is the best way to develop football fitness. For fast-twitch players whose game is based on speedy bursts, brutal endurance runs may do more harm than good.

Jose Mourinho, brought on for his second stint at Chelsea a month after Moyes was hired by Manchester United, has a different approach: “At Chelsea … the way they used to develop an aerobic condition was putting players through 12 sprints of 100 meters each. The way I use to develop an aerobic condition is three against three, man to man, in a square 20 meters by 20. It’s completely different.” Frank Lampard remembers Mourinho’s fitness coach, Rui Faria, saying: “If I am working with a concert pianist why would I make him run around the piano until he drops? Will it make him a better pianist?”

United’s players soon noted the difference between Moyes’ training methods and Ferguson’s. Wayne Rooney: “We’ve done a lot more running: long running, quicker running, sharper running.” Rio Ferdinand: “I think the intensity has gone up … it has been very hard.”

The new methods became a matter of controversy in the summer when Moyes said of Robin van Persie: “We have overtrained him this week to try and make sure we built up his fitness but he has never complained about a thing.” The comment drew criticism from at least one high-profile fitness coach, Raymond Verheijen, who predicted that such overtraining would lead to a recurrence of van Persie’s past injury problems. As it turned out, van Persie has missed nearly half this season’s games due to injury. It might be purely coincidental, but it doesn’t look good.

Of course, United supporters didn’t care what Moyes did to the players in training as long as they were still the same dominant Manchester United on the field. Obedient to Ferguson’s command, they urged the new boss on with a new song: “Come on David Moyes, play like Fergie’s boys!”

They knew that Moyes’ Everton teams had seldom played like Fergie’s boys. They were tough, methodical sides that were always hard to beat but often struggled to win. Lacking the wealth that enabled United to attract some of the world’s most talented players, Everton compensated with togetherness and tactical cohesion. In the simplest possible terms: They worked hard in defense and when they won possession, they would get the ball to wide areas and cross it.

United supporters hoped that once Moyes was working with Fergie’s actual boys, he would adopt a style of play more in keeping with their status: open, attacking, ambitious.

Instead, to their dismay, United now look more like Everton.

It’s not just that their headline figures are eerily similar to those of Everton at the same stage of last season. (After 31 games, they have 48 goals and 51 points, while last season’s Everton had 49 goals and 52 points.) The change in style can be seen in almost every statistical indicator. Shots per game, pass completion, percentage of possession, through-balls, and the proportion of the play in central areas of the field have all declined.

A side that was famous for macho vigor and intensity now appears slow and sluggish, despite all that hard preseason running. Swift attacking interplay has given way to ponderous, almost robotic movement. Liverpool have won plaudits for their speed, and perhaps that is reflected in the fact that they have scored eight league goals on the counterattack, more than any other side. Chelsea, another team built for speed, are second in the counterattacking table, with four. United have scored one counterattacking goal all season.

They do, however, lead the league in crosses per game.

The tactical nadir was reached on Feb. 9 with a 2–2 draw against Fulham, who were managed by Rene Meulensteen, one of the United coaches dismissed by Moyes the previous summer. On that astonishing evening, United crossed the ball 81 times, which was a record for any team in the top five European leagues since Opta began recording the data in 2006.

That table makes interesting reading. Conventional football wisdom might lead you to think that a high number of crosses is an indicator of dominance in the game. Yet when you look down the list of matches where one team has produced an exceptionally large tally, you notice that none of the top seven entrants won the game in question. You have to scan down to eighth place and Manchester City, who struck 68 crosses in the 3–2 win against Queens Park Rangers that sealed the 2012 league title, to find the first team for whom the barrage coincided with the desired result.

It could be that such a freakishly high number of crosses is a symptom of a kind of nervous breakdown within a team that has collectively lost faith in its plan and forgotten how to play football.

For the home crowd, the sight of United persisting with their failing strategy was like watching a beloved relative methodically smashing his head against a brick wall. Fulham’s 6-foot-7 central defender Dan Burn remarked, “I haven’t headed that many balls since the Conference.” “It was straightforward—get it wide, get it in. If you’re well-organized it can be easy to defend against,” gloated Meulensteen, who would be sacked five days later due to poor results—another sign that away results at Old Trafford aren’t held in the same regard as they once were.

Moyes reacted irritably when confronted with the crossing statistics after the match. “You need to have a football intelligence, a football brain, to understand first of all,” he said, instantly ensuring that the journalists’ reports would become 10 percent more caustic. This is the problem David Moyes has had all season. There has been too little evidence of his football brain, and rather too much of his tin ear.

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/03/david_moyes_is_manchester_united_s_new_manager_to_blame_for_the_club_s_collapse.single.html

DennyDoyle'sBoil · Apr 5, 2014

Mata had himself a game today.

DLew On Roids · Apr 20, 2014

SoxFanInCali · Apr 20, 2014

The Europa League kinda sucks, but when looking at Liverpool's UEFA coefficient, I realized that a good run in that competition can be almost as valuable as a good Champions League one. If you go a couple years with no Europe, you may find yourself in a lower pot and a much harder draw. I know I'm really looking forward to Liverpool getting drawn in a group with Bayern, PSG, and Napoli next year.

DLew On Roids · Apr 21, 2014

The ESPN FC article says Giggs would be in charge for the rest of the season.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Apr 21, 2014

Zomp said:
I'll admit, I am a novice at best when it comes to coefficients and I have no idea how much it will hurt United to miss a season (or two) of European football when it comes to which pot they'd be put in on return...but one of the advantages you guys had this year was playing in less games than everyone else. I know the alternative is preferable, but for a team trying to get into the Champions league I'd much rather avoid playing for a secondry cup with tedious travel and be able to rest players and put your best 11 out there week after week.

Also, I'm not sure how profitable preseason tours are (I'd imagine its pretty good) when compared to Europa league. But I know they couldn't do both.

If you miss European football altogether, you will surely drop into pot 2 the following year, but that's not the end of the world. IMO, there's something to be said for having a fully rested first XI but it was probably more important for Liverpool given their lack of squad depth. United's squad is so large that keeping everybody happy without European football could be tricky. You are losing so many players this summer, however, that it might actually be good timing - shrink the squad a bit for next year and build back up again more slowly.

Zomp said:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/21/david-moyes-sack-manchester-united?CMP=twt_gu

I'm surprised that Roberto Martinez is not on the list of rumored coaching candidates.

SidelineCameras · Apr 21, 2014

I'm surprised that Roberto Martinez is not on the list of rumored coaching candidates.

Fairly or unfairly, I'm sure coming from Everton is working against him. Might come off as more of the same.

Nick Kaufman · Apr 21, 2014

I am very weary about the role coaches play which I think is overrated, but it's hard for me to not think that United's performance this year had a lot to do with coaching. The issue is whether it's transitional phase or a structural problem with Moyes' ways.

The best case for Moyes is that he was put in charge of an aging, satiated by titles team, following an legend of a coach trying to establish his own style of play. That was bound to cause teething problems no matter who was at the helm.

The best case against Moyes is that the football he's trying to play is old fashioned and ugly to watch. I dunno. I definitely think that even with Moyes, United would play better next season. I am far from sure whether they can reach the same heights as they did with Ferguson. Can any coach be as as successful as Ferguson. Who is the coach that will be able to at least emulate part of his success?

DLew On Roids · Apr 21, 2014

If Ferguson gets asked for his next best choice, you know who's coming, don't you?

HELLO!!!!!!

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Apr 21, 2014

SidelineCameras said:
Fairly or unfairly, I'm sure coming from Everton is working against him. Might come off as more of the same.

Probably true, although he has achieved more there in one season than Moyes ever did, and while playing better football.

The supposed list from the Guardian article isn't all that inspiring though - Klopp is almost certainly staying, Simeone looks great but doesn't speak English and has a contract that runs through 2017, Blanc hasn't really ever accomplished that much as a manager, and Van Gaal is very talented but also an aging lunatic.

SoxFanInPdx · Apr 21, 2014

I'm surprised that more blame hasn't been directed at the Glazers. They're the ones that gave Fergie the power to pick the next manager. Speaks volumes on who actually is running this club. The rumors of Klopp stepping in is a pipe dream at best.

SidelineCameras · Apr 21, 2014

Far be it from me to defend the Glazers, but from a PR/taking blame standpoint, what risk is there in doing whatever Sir Alex wanted? Imagine the backlash if they had gone against his wishes and the results were the same, that's when they would come into criticism. They are fully insulated here.

cjdmadcow · Apr 21, 2014

SidelineCameras said:
Far be it from me to defend the Glazers, but from a PR/taking blame standpoint, what risk is there in doing whatever Sir Alex wanted? Imagine the backlash if they had gone against his wishes and the results were the same, that's when they would come into criticism. They are fully insulated here.

This shows just how much power SAF had at the end of last season. There is absolutely no way he should have had any say whatsoever in who managed the club next. We are talking about a publicly quoted billion dollar company and the the shareholders have let the exiting CEO decide who should have his job on retirement, no questions asked. Ridiculous.

JayMags71 · Apr 21, 2014

DLew On Roids said:
If Ferguson gets asked for his next best choice, you know who's coming, don't you?

HELLO!!!!!!

I heard Barry Glendenning's voice greeting me in that spoiler.

SidelineCameras · Apr 21, 2014

I don't understand why it's so ridiculous. Who, exactly, is going to say no to SAF?

mgoblue2 · Apr 21, 2014

Martinez won't go to United for all of King Midas's silver. /Dodgeball'd

teddykgb · Apr 21, 2014

Why Spaletti? I agree that it would have been suicide to try to NOT let SAF pick the next manager at United. A controlled replacement was a must, it just hasn't worked out at all. I thought Moyes would be far better than this, but then again I still have no idea how SAF won the title with the team he had in that last season. There was a real lack of talent and RvP papered over a lot of things.

But better work could have been done in the summer, and that's probably on Moyes. I have no idea why they were trying to bring back Nani, as an example. Chicharito, Kagawa both had some value, if Moyes needed to reshape the squad post SAF, he needed to do more than dream about players he couldn't get and then overpay for Fellaini. It was just too naive a summer, maybe SAF needed to have done more, not less, in the transition.

It'll be too bad if Moyes goes, from my perspective. Watching United completely blow all European hopes has been the only thing buoying me while watching City hand Liverpool the fucking league.

SoxFanInCali · Apr 21, 2014

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Apr 21, 2014

I will say that I think getting rid of Moyes is absolutely the right move. Next year could be the most competitive Premier League season of all time in terms of finishing Top 4 and United certainly don't want to spend too many consecutive years out of the CL.

-Liverpool likely coming off a title winning campaign with a great young core.
-Chelsea with a real striker (likely Costa) and the squad truly reshaped by Mourinho.
-City with Pelligrini more settled and probably some new acquisitions this summer.
-Arsenal with their young core one year more experienced, hopefully a real striker, and likely better injury luck.
-Everton in year two with Martinez in charge of their young core.
-Spurs perhaps with a real manager and their young players acquired last summer more settled in English football.
-United still with a lot of talent and oodles of money to throw around.

That's going to be amazing season and also a dangerous one for every club. Any of those teams could challenge for the title and just about any of them could finish seventh. The only squad that I really can't see missing Top 4 is Chelsea, just because Mourinho will find a way to grind out results.

cjdmadcow · Apr 22, 2014

He gone

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27107795

teddykgb · Apr 22, 2014

A sad day in Manchester, I was looking forward to the next 5 years. At least the internet is ablaze with hilarious images commemorating his time in charge.

Spacemans Bong · Apr 22, 2014

Van Gaal would be fun, if only because the chances of him and Rooney having a bust-up are about 100%. Van Persie would be very likely too.

DLew On Roids · Apr 22, 2014

I have a meeting with the chairman later today. I'm presuming it's a pay rise.
— David Moyes (@DavidWillyMoyes) April 21, 2014
Fuck
— David Moyes (@DavidWillyMoyes) April 22, 2014

JayMags71 · Apr 22, 2014

Zomp:

I know earlier in the season, you've advocated patience in relation to Moyes. Do you believe this is a fair result? I'm still a relative novice to the BPL, so these quick triggers are still somewhat alien to me. I would have thought he'd get another season, but I could be convinced he didn't deserve it.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Apr 22, 2014

Spacemans Bong said:
Van Gaal would be fun, if only because the chances of him and Rooney having a bust-up are about 100%. Van Persie would be very likely too.

Lets just hope the bust up occurs with his pants on.

My understanding is that Van Gaal and Van Persie have a good relationship (at least as good as any player has with Van Gaal). My question would really be about Rooney - they handed him the captain's armband and a huge new contract and I have to think there was at least an implicit understanding that RVP was on the way out and thus that Rooney would get to lead the line as he has wanted for a long time. Yet Van Gaal is very much a my-way-or-the-highway sort of guy who will likely walk into the dressing room and tell Rooney to fuck off and that anybody who wasn't willing to play the role the manager had determined had no future with the club. That's been Van Gaal's way at every stop so I don't see it being any different at United.

fletcherpost · Apr 22, 2014

He had to go, anyone who knows anything abou football knows he had to go. But he served his purpose. Now, the next manager doesn't have to fill big shoes. You're not Fergies replacement, your Moyes replacement. And you have so much more leverage. Moyes had no leverage, he thought he did, he was wrong. Moyes should never have got rid of the backroom staff; Phelan and so forth. Big mistake. Word was there was a distance between himself and Giggsy, big mistake. Giggs will be at Man U until he dies or manages Wales. Moyes was clueless in press conferences and post match and pre match interviews...too much use of the word 'hopefully'. You don't hope for anything at Man U - you expect. Moyes is a cautious person and manager and his teams don't play fast paced, confident attacking football. Moyes thrived as an underdog. No underdogs at Man U. Moyes training sessions were arduous affairs and the emphasis was not skills based training. Moyes hasn't got any medals worth a fuck. His (former) dressing room rings with the sound of clanking medals. He's not a winner. Man U are winners. Course he had to fuckin go. He should never have been there...his only purpose was as a lamb to the slaughter, to act as buffer between Fergie and the guy who supercedes him (Moyes).

There will never be another Fergie. And now Utd join the rest of football. Just as Arsenal will when Wenger shuffles off. Fergie used to say the manager is the most important person at a football club, that it has to be the manager. Those days are gone.

Nick Kaufman · Apr 22, 2014

I don't buy the munbo jumbo stuff. I think the main problem was the style of play he was trying to impose. What happened with Moyes reminds me of what was portrayed in the movie about Brian Clough when he went from Derby County to Leeds and tried to replace a legendary defensive minded coach trying to instill offensive football. I don't think Clough was a pansy, but when you ve got a certain group of players accustomed to a certain way of play and set in ways determined by an authoritative figure, it's difficult for them to change and play like you want them to. Clough failed within weeks at Leeds, which at the time was a top club similar to Manchester United, but he was a tremendously successful coach who didn't simply overachieve. He won titles with no name clubs like Derby and Nottingham Forrest.

Having said that. Moyes thing was supposedly trying to play from the wings. Is this a type of play that can be a winner at the top class level? I doubt it. But I also don't know to what extent this is media spin or the reality.

EP Sox Fan · Apr 22, 2014

My two cents as a United supporter.

It was a quick hook but the biggest reason for it is the fact they were going to spend like mad in the transfer market. Moyes' tenure in that regard was an epic fail. If you don't have confidence in the person running the show, you can't give him a blank check to bring his own players in. Spending that kind of money on Felliani after failing to lure in Herrera, Fabergas, Koke et al, then watching him struggle to win a spot on the squad had to make them question his ability to successfully navigate the transfer market with that kind of money at his disposal. He also seemed so far out of his depth from a tactical perspective, not to mention very rigid and inflexible, it's hard to see how Moyes could pull himself out of this death spiral. Agree 100% with Zomp and fletch re: the attitude necessary for a ManUtd manager. The underdog role served him well at Everton but that crap don't fly at Old Trafford.

Van Gaal seems like a logical person to pull them out of the doldrums until a more permanent solution like a Klopp, Simeone, Guardiola could be pried away from their clubs or become interested in the position.

Nick Kaufman · Apr 22, 2014

I haven't studied United's game deeply nor have i seen a lot of United games a lot, so if you say that they played from the wings, they played from the wings. But I think Ferguson was a bit more inventive than simply following what is a very prevalent tactic in English football. That tactic was associated with 4-4-2 and Ferguson was among the first to switch to 4-2-3-1. Also, I remember a game vs Tottenham some years ago at Old Trafford and my memory could be fooling me here, but I think that he was toying with having Rooney playing as false 9.

The other thing I would add is that even if United played through the wings, Barcelona's success has brought a tactical revolution that's influencing all teams worldwide. Keeping the ball on ground and intricate passing which aims to create an opening that's going to be quickly exploited is what teams trying to aim for and to insist on putting the ball on wings so you can center the ball looks even more old-fashioned than it used to.

Nick Kaufman · Apr 22, 2014

Speaking of Van Gaal, how happy are the players and supporters when he's going to try to play a 3-4-3 which is virtually unheard of in the British isles?

DLew On Roids · Apr 22, 2014

Nick Kaufman said:
I don't buy the munbo jumbo stuff.

Is he saying that Moyes wrote Hamlet again?

CodPiece XL · Apr 22, 2014

The more I think about it, the more I think Van Gaal is the man. There is going to be a substantial clear out this summer and the axeman cometh.

Here is a pretty good article about him and his philosophies.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/van-gaals-vision-seeks-recreate-football-utopia

Snakebauer007 · Apr 22, 2014

All the United supporters lecturing me on the downside of sacking managers so fast are probably over.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Apr 22, 2014

Snakebauer007 said:
All the United supporters lecturing me on the downside of sacking managers so fast are probably over.

You have to admit, they've only had 2 in 27 years.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Apr 22, 2014

Nick Kaufman said:
Speaking of Van Gaal, how happy are the players and supporters when he's going to try to play a 3-4-3 which is virtually unheard of in the British isles?

I'm not sure about that. Van Gaal has played several different formations in his career but has been playing mainly 4-3-3 with the Dutch from what I understand.

The three constants for me with Van Gaal teams are that he likes center backs who are good on the ball, midfielders who can possess the ball and move it quickly from side to side, and real wingers who attack the defense from wide.

Jonny Evans and Phil Jones seem to fit the bill for center backs but Chris Smalling is a butcher on the ball and probably has no place on a LVG team.

I'm not sure any of United's midfielders really work except for Rooney or Mata as the most forward player. I can't really see Cleverley or Fellaini being a LVG favorite. Maybe Fletcher.

I bet Van Gaal could get a lot out of Januzaj. I doubt he has much interest in trying to make guys like Kagawa or Welbeck into effective wingers so its hard to see what role they would have in one of his teams.

Manchester United 13/14: Mid-table or Bust

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