Manchester United 13/14: Mid-table or Bust

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Nick Kaufman

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But here's what puzzles me about Moyes. His reputation that made him get hired by Man U was that he overachieved with Everton getting relatively poor teams to high places.

So, to me, it looks there's a bunch of other things - namely the things you mention- that explain Man U's performance.
 

fletcherpost

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Moyes is a good Manager, but the job is too big too soon. When SAF took over Man U the team wasn't the global brand they are now.  They weren't winning titles, they were doing okay in the cups. SAF came to a team that almost got sold for £24 Million. Fergie came to the club a proven winner, who had won titles, cups and a European Trophy managing a team from an unfashionable oil city in the North of Scotland.  He built a team on a fraction of the budget of the old firm, that beat them regularly and comfortably. That won't happen again ever. So, when Fergie came to Man U, people in England might not have known how good he was, But Fergie new and doubtless the people who hired him had a fair idea of what they were getting. But the fact is, he joined a relatively unsuccessful team. And he arrived as a proven winner who had build a multiple trophy winning side. I think that counts for a lot. He had time to build a team in his image, with expectations that are so much less than the expectations places on Moyes, who took over an institution, an industry, a club that for the last 20 or so years dominated football in England and bagged a couple of Champion's League trophies.
 
The point being...all those years ago...Man U needed a Fergie and they got him. What Man U needed at the end of last year was not a man who had built a competitive team on a relatively small budget but had not won a fuckin thing. Moyes might represent continuity, a long term appointment, but what's more important for Man U now, like it is for every big team is stability. Man U have lost stability and it's costly. The team doesn't perform, results don't go well, the share prices drop, the club loses and has lost value. it's never been harder to get into the Champion's League spots. Man U can't afford to miss out two years in a row. 
 
Most football fans knew that Man U's squad last year was in need of a major overhaul. Moyes comes in relatively late in the off season. The Chief executive has just left and he hasn't long to add to the squad and because he is David Moyes he doesn't have the same clout within his own organisation and out there in the transfer market. he won't get the same Money SAF got and he won't get he same money a name (proven manager) would get. SO he's hampered from the start. man U are not a team that splashes out in the January window and that goes against him too. 
 
Moyes being Moyes he was on a hiding to nothing. It was a bad appointment, things being as they are and have panned out.  Moyes clearly is not a man that can get someone else's players to over perform for him, which is what he has had to do. Course SAF would get more from these players, they are his boys. They loved him, as well they might, he was a proven winner, a legend, he was the club. There's maybe half a dozen managers out there that have the gift of getting players to over perform and play for the manager at the drop of a hat. Maybe less than six. 
 
Man U should have gotten hold of a name manager, a guy who could keep the ship afloat for a couple of years, make some big signings...keep the team in the champion's League spots, before making way for the long term appointment. It takes years to replace a man like SAF, i mean he's irreplaceable, but you need to replace him. So Man U should have taken years not months, should have thought short term in the first instance in the name of stability...then taken time to seek out their long term man. SAF got one thing wrong...his choice of Moyes. Fergie can't be blamed. He was judging Moyes the man he knew and the manager he knew...but he should have thought about the man who was going to take over one of the biggest sporting franchises in the world and inheriting an ailing squad that needed urgent replacements that was used to winning things. That man could never be David Moyes. 
 

fletcherpost

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I don't know. I do think there is an element of seeing yourself in someone, seeing some of your own qualities, being forged in the same fires. I imagine Moyes and Fergie could sit and have a laugh and drink a bottle of wine and be on a similar wavelength, talk about football and while away the hours. I think Fergie meant well and was sincere in his anointing of Moyes. But i think what makes some great men great is often a work ethic that doesn't reflect on past achievements but only ever focuses on the future, the next game. Sir Alex has qualities the value of which he is unable to assess objectively. I don't think he can know how great he is or exactly what made him so great. Leave that to Bobby Charlton or Brian Robson to expound upon.  Sir Alex may have seen enough of himself in Moyes, seen enough of how Moyes operates to think wholeheartedly that he is the man for the job. But those other qualities that even Sir Alex can't truly grasp...i think this is the blind spot that is so crucial. 
 
I don't think Fergie thought enough about what the team needs, what the club needs and what it needs now (by now i mean at the time of his departure). I mean you're used to Fergie giving the team talk at half time, then you have Moyes...it's a huge drop off. That bastion of Wisdom Robbie Savage said...A great manager can get players who are just very good, to give an eight of ten performance week in week out. And it's these performances that compliment that of your star players. Fergie did that better than anyone and did it for so long he never knew he was doing anything special, it was just what he does...and he has history, honour and achievement backing it up. His word can be law, his assurances mean so much more in the dressing room. Moyes stepping in...can't work at a Club like Man U things being as they are right now. He is not capable, does not have the nous to get that 20% extra week in week out from the players he inherited, players who over achieved, perhaps without knowing they were over achieving. 
 
Football at the top level is so much about managing egos. large and fragile egos. It helps if you have been there and done that. Moyes hasn't. He has, quite literally, managed...coped. And coped well. But it's not enough. 
 
I don't think the aspect of nationhood swung it or made a huge difference. I think it was more a case of Moyes was a guy who would stick around. And he's a good manager. Based on who was available and what the club felt they needed at the time, he fitted the bill. But the assessment of what was needed was wrong from the start. 
Seriously, you're one nil down at half time...who are the five managers you want giving the team talk? Moyes is not on that list. 
 

mgoblue2

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At the time the Moyes hiring seemed logical but there was always the possibility of what's happening now. At the time, he took over at Everton after a few season of bottom half play. They hadn't done much since the FA Cup in 95 and you could say they were a smaller club. Maybe you can say Everton are still a small club now but that's beside the point. Either way, like Fletch said he did have a system and mentality in place at Everton but the more you look at it the more you see it can't translate to being a consistent title challenger. Trying to nick a point at the Emirates is fine in the short run but over a season it won't get you very far. United and Spurs seem to be in the same place right now from a squad and results aspect-plenty of talent up front but lacking in the back, and both teams are getting frustrating results because of it.
 

Nick Kaufman

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I ve occasionally spewed antiOlympiacos venom in this place.
I guess this video compilation of penalties they won these past 20 years when they ve attained semi-champion status explains a good chunk of it.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iChwYChuiM
 
It's vitally important for United to score 5 on them. It's going to be a small victory of humanity against this shit.
 

soxfan121

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IT'S A TRAP

He will consider it...until Bayern pays him.
 
There's a decent chance they don't, which I agree would be weird but...Pep.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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soxfan121 said:
 
There's a decent chance they don't, which I agree would be weird but...Pep.
 
I think its all posturing and that, despite whatever minor personal conflicts might have occurred, Kroos is really a perfect Guardiola midfielder because of his versatility and tactical intelligence.  The proof is ultimately in the pudding (playing time).  I know Bayern have had injuries this year but Kroos is the only non-back 5 guy to start every UCL game and has also made more Bundesliga starts than every non-back 5 player except Muller.  Schweinsteiger is 30 soon and doesn't offer the same tactical acumen or passing quality as Kroos - he may not be really what Pep likes for a deeper lying CM even if healthy.  Thiago is a very promising player but the fact that Pep only plays him selectively speaks volumes to me.  Gotze is fantastic but is much more of an ACM or winger.
 
Bayern is the best club int he world and is not in the business of letting key players leave.  Their finances are very healthy.  Kroos is clearly a key player for them.  It all adds up to them signing him to a new contract after a lot of protracted back and forth.
 

Bailey10

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I think Kroos stays with Bayern unless his personal relationship with the club has broken down to the point of no return over this contract.  It makes most sense for German stars to play for Bayern from a marketing standpoint and the for the sake of the German national team anyways.
 
This transfer window is going to be even more infurriating with rumors and speculation than usual for United. Their only recourse to sign a world class midfielder without the offer of champions league football is to throw ridiculous personal terms at players on relatively low salaries.
 
Can't wait for months of speculation surrounding Kroos, Gundogan, Vidal, Pogba, and Koke to end with Moyes signing someone like James McCarthy for 5 million pounds more than he should.
 

Zomp

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Zomp said:
 
Here is what bothers me, and I'm usually not one to buy into intangibles, but during Moyes' press conference he says stuff like, "Well we're home at Old Trafford so we'll aim to make it difficult for them".
 
What?  You're managing a team that won the title last year.  Tell your team you're at home so you expect 3 points and a fucking scalp.
 
I want this to work out for Moyes.  But I guess I never considered that he was known for scrapping results together against teams when he was overmatched.  It never occured to me that maybe its the only way he can manage.  I want it to change, but I've yet to see it.
 
I wrote this 3 months ago and Brendan Rodgers pretty much said this as well yesterday.  I don't care how bad the season is going, I could never see Ferguson, Pep, Mourinho, etc... saying that they were the underdogs at home even if it was true.  Moyes is going to be given one more transfer window and start of the season but its going to just be postponing his release if he doesn't change his mentality.
 
In a way, I think Moyes is a bit too nice and honest for the job.  All of the great managers see what they want to see.  Some will never admit their team was second best, some will blame officials for things that they have no control over, but they'll always tell people in public that their team can and will win if they perform to the level they should.  Moyes doesn't do that.  He admitted defeat this season when he sent a letter to supporters apologizing for the season.  Its bleeding into the team now.
 
 
Even though he said he'd like to stay, I'm still on board with selling RVP.  If he isn't going to move off the ball there is no need to have him here.  Push Rooney up, have Mata play centrally and get someone who can beat a man on the wing.
 

Bailey10

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Zomp said:
 
I wrote this 3 months ago and Brendan Rodgers pretty much said this as well yesterday.  I don't care how bad the season is going, I could never see Ferguson, Pep, Mourinho, etc... saying that they were the underdogs at home even if it was true.  Moyes is going to be given one more transfer window and start of the season but its going to just be postponing his release if he doesn't change his mentality.
 
In a way, I think Moyes is a bit too nice and honest for the job.  All of the great managers see what they want to see.  Some will never admit their team was second best, some will blame officials for things that they have no control over, but they'll always tell people in public that their team can and will win if they perform to the level they should.  Moyes doesn't do that.  He admitted defeat this season when he sent a letter to supporters apologizing for the season.  Its bleeding into the team now.
 
 
Even though he said he'd like to stay, I'm still on board with selling RVP.  If he isn't going to move off the ball there is no need to have him here.  Push Rooney up, have Mata play centrally and get someone who can beat a man on the wing.
 
I'm not so sure Moyes is going to be given the summer. If United fail to advance against Olypmpiacos, that is a dissapointment of massive proportions after being handed the most favorable draw in the round of 16. I think he's lost the dressing room and its past the point of no return.
 
Combined with the fact that some pretty well known national team coaches' contracts are up after the World Cup (Van Gaal, Loew), I think you look to start over this summer.
 
My solution: Throw stupid money at Jurgen Klopp who might be looking for a change after an up and down season with Dortmund (a large part due to injuries). Hiring Klopp would also help in recruiting some world class Dortmund players like Reus, Gundogan, Hummels, or Subotic who otherwise might not go to a Champions League-less Manchester United.
 

Schnerres

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Bailey10 said:
 
My solution: Throw stupid money at Jurgen Klopp who might be looking for a change after an up and down season with Dortmund (a large part due to injuries). Hiring Klopp would also help in recruiting some world class Dortmund players like Reus, Gundogan, Hummels, or Subotic who otherwise might not go to a Champions League-less Manchester United.
 
Klopp just signed a new contract this season. His old contract ran until 2016. New one runs until 2018. There were some rumors he might be in the mix if Jogi steps down after the WC (although Jogi signed a new contract until 2016 at about the same time like Klopp/in october 13), but after Klopp signed his extension, there is no chance he leaves. This season is so-so, but just because Bayern is so much better in Bundesliga. Dortmund had many many injuries (Subotic, Hummels, Gündogan, Kehl, Bender, Schmelzer,...were all out for multiple weeks/months) and have no chance in Bundesliga for 1st place. They are still in semifinal in DFB Cup vs. Wolfsburg, have a good chance to advance vs. Zenit and finish in 2nd or 3rd in Bundesliga to get straight into CL.
 
Good idea, but no chance in hell that Klopp leaves Dortmund for ManU.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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United are obviously a huge club with massive appeal to managers but there are a lot of pitfalls to this job as well.  Ferguson is an extremely tough act to follow, CL qualification next year will be tough (and any manager who doesn't qualify is likely to be under huge pressure), the roster needs a lot of turnover, and the current squad has neither the midfield to play a possession football game nor the pacey attackers to play a counterattacking game.  I don't see Klopp coming for the reasons Schnerres notes.  Antonio Conte also has been mentioned but that seems just as unlikely.  He has a million reasons to stay at Juventus, which is a very big club in its own right.
 
More realistic possibilities might be Van Gaal, Simeone, or De Boer. 
 

Bailey10

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Schnerres said:
 
Klopp just signed a new contract this season. His old contract ran until 2016. New one runs until 2018. There were some rumors he might be in the mix if Jogi steps down after the WC (although Jogi signed a new contract until 2016 at about the same time like Klopp/in october 13), but after Klopp signed his extension, there is no chance he leaves. This season is so-so, but just because Bayern is so much better in Bundesliga. Dortmund had many many injuries (Subotic, Hummels, Gündogan, Kehl, Bender, Schmelzer,...were all out for multiple weeks/months) and have no chance in Bundesliga for 1st place. They are still in semifinal in DFB Cup vs. Wolfsburg, have a good chance to advance vs. Zenit and finish in 2nd or 3rd in Bundesliga to get straight into CL.
 
Good idea, but no chance in hell that Klopp leaves Dortmund for ManU.
 
Despite their recent success, Dortmund is a selling club. They went bankrupt in 2005 and have a wage bill between 50-60 million euros. The easiest way for Manchester United to immediately regain that status as championship contenders is to raid Klopp and the promising the talent from Dortmund. A club in a less than certain financial situation such as Dortmund cannot say no to the type of funds Manchester United can offer this summer to ensure they regain a spot in the champions league.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Bailey10 said:
 
Despite their recent success, Dortmund is a selling club. They went bankrupt in 2005 and have a wage bill between 50-60 million euros. The easiest way for Manchester United to immediately regain that status as championship contenders is to raid Klopp and the promising the talent from Dortmund. A club in a less than certain financial situation such as Dortmund cannot say no to the type of funds Manchester United can offer this summer to ensure they regain a spot in the champions league.
 
Dortmund were #11 in revenue in the most recent Deloitte report, about on par with Milan and ahead of Liverpool.  They have been growing at a massive rate in recent years and their wage bill has yet to catch up, but this is no longer a small club by any means.  Given their rate of growth and the many commercial opportunities in that part of Germany it would not be surprising for them to leapfrog teams like Milan and Juventus next year and be on par with teams like Chelsea and Arsenal in terms of total revenue. Klopp surely knows this as well as anybody.
 

SoxFanInPdx

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Bailey10 said:
 
Despite their recent success, Dortmund is a selling club. They went bankrupt in 2005 and have a wage bill between 50-60 million euros. The easiest way for Manchester United to immediately regain that status as championship contenders is to raid Klopp and the promising the talent from Dortmund. A club in a less than certain financial situation such as Dortmund cannot say no to the type of funds Manchester United can offer this summer to ensure they regain a spot in the champions league.
 
Why would any of the top players at Dortmund leave to play for a squad at United that's not in the CL? Of course United have money, but players want Champions League.
 

teddykgb

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There are very few teams in the world who wouldn't be interested in Klopp.  He's been pretty well documented in saying that he wants to stay at Dortmund, so I'd be a bit surprised if just one season of underperformance changed that.  If he were to decide to leave, I think he'd have several opportunities at big name clubs with better talent.  I think it is a bit of a pipe dream, to be honest.
 
I think players want CL football, but they want money more.  In particular, in the season after a World Cup year, there are probably a class of players for whom wages would be enough.  Selling RvP would certainly make some money, but I can't help but wonder if there's enough money at United to accomplish the turnover that is necessary.
 

Zomp

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This summer, and possibly next, I think you could still sell players on this season being a blip and the expectation would be to get back in the Champions League.  If it happens for more than two seasons though, I think we're in trouble.
 

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RVP slots home a PK. Down 2-1 on aggregate now. Two Olympiacos defenders already on yellow cards. Things are shaping up well for United if they can avoid being hit on the counter. Still look shakey in the back.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Van Persie again off a great feed from Rooney.
 
Ten minutes earlier, De Gea made an astonishing double-save to keep the deficit at 1.
 

Bailey10

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The De Gea double kick save was great but honestly Olympiacos should have buried that. The goal was wide open if he just hit that rebound high into the net instead of trying to pass it on the ground.
 

Vinho Tinto

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Just when you think you're out, Roberto Jimenez pulls you back in. A great free kick by RVP with an assist to Roberto's daydreaming. 
 

Luis Taint

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Vinho Tinto said:
Just when you think you're out, Roberto Jimenez pulls you back in. A great free kick by RVP with an assist to Roberto's daydreaming. 
He looked like me, when I was fat kid goalie in youth soccer. Just watching the pretty butterflies.
 

Bailey10

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United advance 3-2 on aggregate but it may have cost them a serious injury to RVP who was stretchered off. I guess there's a miracle scenario where they pull a Chelsea and win it all to qualify for next year's UCL but I'm not holding my breath. They are the weakest team in the quarters IMO.
 
A small part of me was hoping to not advance tonight so Manchester's Moyes nightmare would be over. Guess I'll have to wait til we give up 4 goals at home to City to call for his sacking again.
 

Zomp

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SoxFanInCali said:
It's not like Evra would have been able to do anything with Robben, either.
 
I'm not denying Evra sucks and is aging rapidly, but Buttner is truly awful.
 
 
 
Trying to find a silver lining with this RVP injury, I am intrigued to see how we play without him.  His injury does give us a chance to inject pace in a lineup that can be a little more fluid.  In the league it allows Mata to switch to a central position while Rooney plays the 9 role, which I think will be the plan next season.  I'm also a very big fan of Welbeck on the left.  His pace and strength is phenomenal as is his reading of the game.  I have no problem with Mata, Rooney, and Welbeck all interchanging together as they play.  Valencia or Januzaj can play on the right and lets have a go.
 

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Apologies in advance if this post really belongs in TBLTS
 
I'm in Manchester on an extended stay and looking to pick up a single for the derby on Tuesday. Good news is that there are a surprising number of tickets on craigslist.
 
For anyone who knows Old Trafford well, or has been even once, any guidance on preferred seating areas or sections to avoid? Is craigslist the way to go or can you just show up with cash and find a seat? Willing to spend some money given that it's unlikely I'll ever be here again for United-City.
 
Tips on places to drink before or after the match also much appreciated.
 

teddykgb

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I was just in Manchester on Saturday for City v Fulham.


I don't attend matches at the theatre of dreams (it's so fun to use that name now) so I can't help much. I know there are usually scalpels outside of matches but I'd be worried about legitimacy. I don't know for sure about united but most teams have cards for access now, with paper tickets as options. I'd be worried about being scammed.

It may be that only mcfc members can buy on viagogo, I'd try there first. Match day hospitality is also often a way in. There are some bars down by the stadium, I know I drank in a popular one attached to a hotel within sight of the stadium
 
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