Manager's Discretion

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
So, I went looking to bump a Cora thread and realized the ole rule about if it's hard to find, start a new one.

So, what do we think about Cora's ejection here? It seems pretty intentional, so I wanted to hear what people thought about it and what he's doing or...

Well, I wanna hear the stuff I haven't thought of yet. But man, that happened fast, yeah?
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
9,579
NOVA
Visceral BS. Dude threw at his best player's head for no reason. Second time this year. Umps treated it like it was fair to do so. What else is there? Cora would be a terrible manager for not getting run there.
 

Byrdbrain

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
8,588
Yeah I'm 100% fine with Cora getting run there, he had the exact right reaction.
It' not like he isn't still managing the team or anything.
 

AB in DC

OG Football Writing
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2002
13,616
Springfield, VA
Ump had an awfully quick trigger finger there.

I'm ok with the warning, and I'm ok with Cora coming out to complain. There's no reason why the ump couldn't let him have his say.
 

Adrian's Dome

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2010
4,424
Visceral BS. Dude threw at his best player's head for no reason. Second time this year. Umps treated it like it was fair to do so. What else is there? Cora would be a terrible manager for not getting run there.
Agreed.

Ump was complete bullshit and Cora was 100% correct.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,185
It’s very hard to defend throwing him out before he got there, more or less. Certainly on those facts he has a right to ask why Severino wasn’t tossed (which I wouldn’t expect, but which would have been more legit than tossing Cora) and once there’s a legit question what’s the basis?
 

luckysox

Indiana Jones
SoSH Member
Apr 21, 2009
8,073
S.E. Pennsylvania
I was actually hoping he'd stay longer or run back out and totally lose his mind, maybe just to get some emotion out. The guy's had a bad week off the field. And the HP ump was way too quick on that trigger. He deserved whatever Cora could throw at him, maybe even up to a water cooler.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
Yeah my only disappointment was how quietly he went. I did love to replay of reading his lips with the ‘fuck you!’ Before the warnings were issued and left the dugout.
 

Oppo

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2009
1,576
Ump could've tried to actually explain the warning instead of immediately tossing him.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
I was actually hoping he'd stay longer or run back out and totally lose his mind, maybe just to get some emotion out. The guy's had a bad week off the field. And the HP ump was way too quick on that trigger. He deserved whatever Cora could throw at him, maybe even up to a water cooler.
Yeah my only disappointment was how quietly he went. I did love to replay of reading his lips with the ‘fuck you!’ Before the warnings were issued and left the dugout.
Rookie move by Cora, eh?

Awesome.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,837
Ump had an awfully quick trigger finger there.

I'm ok with the warning, and I'm ok with Cora coming out to complain. There's no reason why the ump couldn't let him have his say.
Apparently, like balls and strikes, you cannot argue these warnings. That said, most umps would at least the guy rant a bit before running him.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
Rookie move? Or, the new reality with reviews and heightened sensitivity via social media and the league office to arguing anything at all?
So you think it wasn't a rookie movie but actually something well thought out, even perhaps calculated?

 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
This has happened to Mookie one too many times for Cora's liking. He took advantage of an opportunity to stand up for his player and his team. It was a genuine, emotional reaction and kudos to him for going with it.
 

Murby

New Member
Mar 16, 2006
1,790
Boston Metro
Apparently, like balls and strikes, you cannot argue these warnings. That said, most umps would at least the guy rant a bit before running him.
Yeah the ump could’ve at least turned his back and walked away to make Cora chase him. But, he clearly warned him with the gesture to stop. Don’t think he wanted to run him, but Cora forced his hand. I too am okay with Cora doing what he did.
 

Redkluzu

tortures mice
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2007
2,651
Bostonish...see Wiki for "ish"
You know, the idea of plunking players intentionally has always seemed just whacko to me. It doesn't matter that it's commonly done or that then we have an "eye for an eye", "send a message," or any of the other macho responses to "My guy got hit." The ump should have thrown out Severino if he thought it was intentional. End of discussion for me.

Cora was right to stand up for the intentional hitting of his player, and yes, I think he made a point pretty intentionally. When they go low, call them on it. And if you get thrown out, c'est la vie.
 
Last edited:

SoxInTheMist

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
212
Woodinville, WA
I really wish Cora had made at least a few steps towards the Yankees dugout or the pitchers mound. Sure, it was a quick fuse by the ump but his anger should have been aimed directly at the people that threw at the head of the best player on his team.

As an aside.. I'm glad the Sox didn't retaliate... yet. I loved how they just dominated the game instead. Of course, sometime this weekend there will be some retaliation.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,271
AZ
The rule is really clear that if you leave the dugout to argue a warning you are supposed to be cautioned to return to the dugout but if you do not it’s an ejection. If Cora had come out like he was seeking an explanation maybe he gets some latitude but he was arguing. The ump got criticized on tv for telling Cora to stay in the dugout but the whole thing appears to have been by the book.

I think Cora was completely right to get ejected. The rule says you cannot issue warnings unless you believe the batter was intentionally thrown at. The Comment to the rule also says throwing at a batter’s head is unsportsmanlike and highly dangerous. So, the pitch was deemed intentional and it was at the head. If that only gets a warning, the manager is entitled to lose his shit.

Incidentally, I thought I heard in the post game that it was not the home plate ump who issued the warnings but the crew chief.

Anyway, here’s a link to the rule. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/rules_interest.jsp
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
I really wish Cora had made at least a few steps towards the Yankees dugout or the pitchers mound. Sure, it was a quick fuse by the ump but his anger should have been aimed directly at the people that threw at the head of the best player on his team.

As an aside.. I'm glad the Sox didn't retaliate... yet. I loved how they just dominated the game instead. Of course, sometime this weekend there will be some retaliation.
Disagree.

The umpire is responsible, not the opposing team--they're just trying to win.

That's why there are umpires.
 

SoxInTheMist

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
212
Woodinville, WA
Disagree.

The umpire is responsible, not the opposing team--they're just trying to win.

That's why there are umpires.
Huh? The umpires didn't throw at Mookies head. I don't care about him getting tossed and I doubt most of his anger was about getting tossed or really even the warning. I just wish he directed it more at the Yankees who caused the incident.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
Huh? The umpires didn't throw at Mookies head. I don't care about him getting tossed and I doubt most of his anger was about getting tossed or really even the warning. I just wish he directed it more at the Yankees who caused the incident.
Let players fight players. Coaches and managers fighting with players is even more absurd than players' brawls--and God help everyone if a coach injured a player.

Managers know who is responsible for the game, the same way they are. Cora's may be a new manager, but it's not like he doesn't understand how the game is actually played--I love the guy more and more because he strikes me as a true pro's pro manager.
 

Adrian's Dome

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2010
4,424
Disagree.

The umpire is responsible, not the opposing team--they're just trying to win.

That's why there are umpires.
Just trying to win by throwing at an opposing players' head for all the wrong reasons?

For fuck's sake, cut the shit.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,416
Not here
It was a brushback pitch. It didn't hit him. The warning was probably the result of a memo from the commissioner's office to keep a tight lid on things.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
Just trying to win by throwing at an opposing players' head for all the wrong reasons?

For fuck's sake, cut the shit.
This is not an accurate description of my point.

The idea that the umpire is not the most important point of contact for communication by the manager is simply not supportable, no matter how much the fans might enjoy even more theater than this entailed.

And not knock it off with stuff like the last line. We all know you don't like me, but there's no reason to pollute the main board with that crap, yes?
 

dwainw

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,403
Minneapolis, MN
I really wish Cora had made at least a few steps towards the Yankees dugout or the pitchers mound. Sure, it was a quick fuse by the ump but his anger should have been aimed directly at the people that threw at the head of the best player on his team.
I'm almost sure I saw Cora direct a parting shot toward the Yankee dugout before he left the field. And he did have this to say after the game.

When asked if the bad blood was over for now, Cora fired a parting shot at Severino before exiting his press conference. “I don’t know. Four runs in less than six innings. Is that a quality start?” Cora said, as seen on NESN’s postgame coverage.
 

Adrian's Dome

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2010
4,424
This is not an accurate description of my point.

The idea that the umpire is not the most important point of contact for communication by the manager is simply not supportable, no matter how much the fans might enjoy even more theater than this entailed.

And not knock it off with stuff like the last line. We all know you don't like me, but there's no reason to pollute the main board with that crap, yes?
So I can't say "cut the shit", but you can essentially say "cut the shit", but in an unnecessarily wordy convoluted way? That's "main board material?"

I stand by what I said - cut the shit.

The umpire is not the most important point of contact for anybody because they have what is the equivalent of "fuck you" power. You can't so much as question their motives or decisions or else you find yourself in the showers, even if the umpires are objectively in the wrong (as they were today.)

A hard glare toward the opposing dugout and pitcher would be quite the statement, no different than the postgame statements made from Cora. A quintessential, on-the-field "cut the shit"...but as we know, MLB games are essentially umpired as cleanly and fairly as message boards are policed.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,026
So I can't say "cut the shit", but you can essentially say "cut the shit", but in an unnecessarily wordy convoluted way? That's "main board material?"

I stand by what I said - cut the shit.

The umpire is not the most important point of contact for anybody because they have what is the equivalent of "fuck you" power. You can't so much as question their motives or decisions or else you find yourself in the showers, even if the umpires are objectively in the wrong (as they were today.)

A hard glare toward the opposing dugout and pitcher would be quite the statement, no different than the postgame statements made from Cora. A quintessential, on-the-field "cut the shit"...but as we know, MLB games are essentially umpired as cleanly and fairly as message boards are policed.
Which is exactly what Cora did, right?

Like, none of us believe he didn't know what was happening was happening even while it was happening, right?

The whole point of the thread is: Why?

Just assuming away the fact that what he did is stupid is to beg the question, which is fine if we are going to just assume Cora sucks.

I think Cora may not suck, so I'm intrigued by other possibilities.
 

Adrian's Dome

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2010
4,424
Which is exactly what Cora did, right?

Like, none of us believe he didn't know what was happening was happening even while it was happening, right?

The whole point of the thread is: Why?

Just assuming away the fact that what he did is stupid is to beg the question, which is fine if we are going to just assume Cora sucks.

I think Cora may not suck, so I'm intrigued by other possibilities.
I love Cora. I think he's a brilliant manager.

I think it's horseshit that he was ejected for doing the right thing, and it would've been more beneficial, given the ultimate umpire authority, to yell at Severino and the Yankee dugout than pick a fight with the ump he was destined to lose.

I realize it's more your style to word that in the most confusing manner possible, but that's not my style.

I envision a day where a manager can say "fuck you, that's horseshit" to an ump and possibly be backed by the other umps instead of immediately thrown out of the game. As it stands, you're better off picking a fight with the other team and praying you come out on top than questioning the authority, and that's where my problem lies. You say "why?", I say "why the fuck is it this way?"
 

NDame616

will bailey
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
2,312
Giants relief pitcher Pablo Sandoval out for the year with a hamstring tear
 

Dewey'sCannon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
869
Maryland
The rule is really clear that if you leave the dugout to argue a warning you are supposed to be cautioned to return to the dugout but if you do not it’s an ejection. If Cora had come out like he was seeking an explanation maybe he gets some latitude but he was arguing. The ump got criticized on tv for telling Cora to stay in the dugout but the whole thing appears to have been by the book.

I think Cora was completely right to get ejected. The rule says you cannot issue warnings unless you believe the batter was intentionally thrown at. The Comment to the rule also says throwing at a batter’s head is unsportsmanlike and highly dangerous. So, the pitch was deemed intentional and it was at the head. If that only gets a warning, the manager is entitled to lose his shit.

Incidentally, I thought I heard in the post game that it was not the home plate ump who issued the warnings but the crew chief.

Anyway, here’s a link to the rule. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/rules_interest.jsp
Thanks for the cite to the rule. The reference to ejection for arguing is not in the rule itself, but in the comments, and it says "If a manager, coach or player leaves the dugout or his position to dispute a warning, he should be warned to stop. If he continues, he is subject to ejection."

By saying "subject to ejection" rather than "shall be ejected," I interpret this as meaning the umpire has discretion to eject or not. I think the fact that it was a less-experienced umpire behind the plate (2nd year?) might have played into the quick trigger, or maybe he didn't think he had discretion.

On the other hand, Cora acknowledged after the game that he "wasn't very polite." So it's also possible that he said some of the "magic words" on his way out. But it looked like by waving him off the way he did, the ump thought the mere fact of arguing was an automatic ejection. But I'm not so sure the rule, or comment, makes it automatic. As demonstrated in these circumstances, I don't think it should be.
 

Byrdbrain

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
8,588
Cora wanted to be ejected there, he was making a point that he was going to stick up for his team.
 

charlieoscar

Member
Sep 28, 2014
1,339
It was a brushback pitch. It didn't hit him. The warning was probably the result of a memo from the commissioner's office to keep a tight lid on things.
If it came down from the league, the teams should have been told before the game started and given that, Porcello was lucky not to have been ejected and Severino definitely should have been.

But all that aside, the number of batters being hit seems to have risen over the years. I think that it is primarily due to all the body armor batters are allowed to wear, which lets them crowd/hang over the plate and the fact that umpires almost never call batters for failing to make an attempt to avoid being hit.

Year--HBP---BFP--HBP/BFP
1960--488--94776-0.005149
1970--825-149324-0.005525
1980--657-161210-0.004075
1990--861-160316-0.005371
2000-1573-190261-0.008268
2010-1549-185553-0.008348
2015-1602-183628-0.008724
2018-1295-125779-0.010296
 

oumbi

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 15, 2006
4,167
Nice stats CO. I am wondering (and too lazy) whether the increase in HBP is partly fueled by an increased number of teams playing, and hence games played in a season? Perhaps that was already factored into your stats?
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,185
Thanks for the cite to the rule. The reference to ejection for arguing is not in the rule itself, but in the comments, and it says "If a manager, coach or player leaves the dugout or his position to dispute a warning, he should be warned to stop. If he continues, he is subject to ejection."

By saying "subject to ejection" rather than "shall be ejected," I interpret this as meaning the umpire has discretion to eject or not. I think the fact that it was a less-experienced umpire behind the plate (2nd year?) might have played into the quick trigger, or maybe he didn't think he had discretion.

On the other hand, Cora acknowledged after the game that he "wasn't very polite." So it's also possible that he said some of the "magic words" on his way out. But it looked like by waving him off the way he did, the ump thought the mere fact of arguing was an automatic ejection. But I'm not so sure the rule, or comment, makes it automatic. As demonstrated in these circumstances, I don't think it should be.
As I noted earlier, the rule says you can’t dispute the issuance of a warning.

It does not say you cannot ask for the immediate ejection.

Until umpire hears what manager is asking he cannot, under the rule, eject the manager. That’s identical to the way complaining about balls and strikes is treated. Thus, we’d have to know what Cora said to know if ejection was legit.

That said, I agree with those that Cora was happy to get tossed anyway.
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
I haven't been able to find a video of the Gardner HBP - where on the body did Porcello's pitch hit him?
 

Byrdbrain

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
8,588
On the arm, the pitch was just off the plate and it was obvious there was no intent.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,753
Pittsburgh, PA
Nice stats CO. I am wondering (and too lazy) whether the increase in HBP is partly fueled by an increased number of teams playing, and hence games played in a season? Perhaps that was already factored into your stats?
There have been 162 games per season during the entire period he cited, but more importantly, he normalized it all by dividing through by batters-faced. So those are ratios of hit batsmen as a fraction of all plate appearances, and it's over 1% this year, double that of pre-1990.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,367
Can we note how non-sensical Severino's postgame comments are?

"If I'm going to hit somebody," Severino said, "I'm not going to miss."

Severino was annoyed at the quick warning.

"First pitch of the game, I get a f****** warning," Severino said. "I mean, it's going to be surprising of course. I wasn't trying to hit nobody."

Furthermore, the pitch that brushed Betts back was elevated near his head. Severino said he would never purposefully throw at somebody's head.

"Mookie is a great guy," Severino said. "And if I'm going to hit somebody, I'm not going to go to the head. That's not right."
So your control is so good that you don't miss if you're trying to hit somebody, but this pitch got away from you and missed its target by at least a foot? Can't have it both ways.
 

Byrdbrain

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
8,588
The statement is obviously crap but that is what he has to say. I think he put that pretty much where he wanted. I don't think he wanted to hit Mookie but he certainly wanted to knock him down.
He might have done the same thing even it Gardner didn't get hit.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,185
The statement is obviously crap but that is what he has to say. I think he put that pretty much where he wanted. I don't think he wanted to hit Mookie but he certainly wanted to knock him down.
He might have done the same thing even it Gardner didn't get hit.
Evidence of which is from Romine:

"They scored how many runs last night? So we have to pitch inside. There was no intent on that. When someone puts up 15, 16 runs, you've got to kind of change the game plan up. "You've got a guy throwing 100 mph, you've got to pitch them in to keep them honest."
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24279317/alex-cora-boston-red-sox-ejected-new-york-yankees-game
 

iayork

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 6, 2006
639
I have some sympathy with the umpire. Whether or not Severino had intent, the brushback could easily be read as intentional by the Sox. Porcello will certainly hit a guy intentionally if he thinks they need it. I think without the warning there was a pretty good chance a Yankee was going to get drilled, and it's the umps' job to stop that from happening. You don't have to argue that Gardner's HBP was intentional to reach that conclusion.

Running Cora probably had to happen too, but I was shocked at how fast it happened. Give the guy a moment to make his point, if he has a point to make. Either he had a fast trigger, or Cora use some of the words that you can't use to an ump on his way out.