Lonzo and his brother Chuck Cunningham and his other brother Chuck Cunningham

Jimbodandy

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When someone has an "unconventional" shot and they are very good shooters, nobody seems to care that they don't have good form. Like Bakahump, I have seen tons of tons of women college players with odd forms that look ghastly at times, but I've seen a lot of them shoot around 40 percent as well. Peja Stojakovich had a very unconventional release; but nobody ever told him to change it. Even Steph Curry doesn't have the kind of jumper I'd want to be showing off as a perfect motion.
Unconventional does not equal bad. Steph Curry's is unconventional but not bad form. Some guys can have bad form and still be successful, but it's a very small subset of people who can be elite with bad mechanics.
 

reggiecleveland

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Curry's form isn't bad though. In fact some people argue maybe he improved the shot. Lonzo's is just bad.
https://www.si.com/nba/2016/03/14/stephen-curry-golden-state-warriors-bruce-fraser-steve-kerr-shot

From a purely technical standpoint, his shot is not unusual. Curry is both a one-stepper (catch, take a step and shoot) and a hopper (catch and pop up off two feet). On his release, he brings the ball up above his shooting eye—the classic “finger up the nose” approach, as Fraser calls it—sometimes appearing as if he might scrape his forehead in the process (Nash was more of a shoulder-slot shooter, and Fraser found his own release point migrated to the right while working with him). As he shoots, Curry points his feet slightly to the left, as many right-handed shooters do, and will pivot in mid-air to align them if needed. Once the shot is up, he is a “ball watcher," keeping his eyes on the flight of his shot, rather than the rim. Kerr, Miller and Nash were also ball watchers, and Fraser believes nearly all the best shooters are.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Unconventional does not equal bad. Steph Curry's is unconventional but not bad form. Some guys can have bad form and still be successful, but it's a very small subset of people who can be elite with bad mechanics.
Right and given how equal everything else is in the NBA, generally the problem with poor mechanics is that it either adds more time to get the ball out, which allows NBA defenders more time to recover (i.e., Lonzo Ball) or it adds inconsistency to the shot (i.e., Marcus Smart in his first two seasons).

And there's an article from the WSJ that talks about Steph shot from his waist but knew he had to change his shot to go further so he spent a summer on it. (Referenced here: http://www.businessinsider.com/stephen-curry-shooting-form-2014-12).

There's so much stuff on the internet about shooting these days I wish I had known growing up.
 

Jimbodandy

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Right and given how equal everything else is in the NBA, generally the problem with poor mechanics is that it either adds more time to get the ball out, which allows NBA defenders more time to recover (i.e., Lonzo Ball) or it adds inconsistency to the shot (i.e., Marcus Smart in his first two seasons).

And there's an article from the WSJ that talks about Steph shot from his waist but knew he had to change his shot to go further so he spent a summer on it. (Referenced here: http://www.businessinsider.com/stephen-curry-shooting-form-2014-12).

There's so much stuff on the internet about shooting these days I wish I had known growing up.
Good stuff.

And yes, the internet is gold for that. My 15yo has refined his own shot substantially as he got older through videos. A couple of his friends follow the same shooting coaches that he does.
 

joe dokes

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Jerry Lucas shot from below his shoulder from long range. He said he wanted to get the ball high so it could drop straight down into the basket -- more room for error. He was a weird guy (memorizing the phone book, among other things) but he shot 50% for his career.
 

BaseballJones

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Right and given how equal everything else is in the NBA, generally the problem with poor mechanics is that it either adds more time to get the ball out, which allows NBA defenders more time to recover (i.e., Lonzo Ball) or it adds inconsistency to the shot (i.e., Marcus Smart in his first two seasons).

And there's an article from the WSJ that talks about Steph shot from his waist but knew he had to change his shot to go further so he spent a summer on it. (Referenced here: http://www.businessinsider.com/stephen-curry-shooting-form-2014-12).

There's so much stuff on the internet about shooting these days I wish I had known growing up.
The beauty of Steph's shooting mechanics is in its simplicity and repeatability. He has a single-action motion (unlike, say, Ray Allen, who was also a great shooter but who had a classic double-action motion). Imagine him pushing the ball up through an elevator shaft or a chimney. The action takes the ball at his hip and moves it in a straight line up and out. No extra motion. Super simple. Very repeatable. Exceedingly quick to release. Now he doesn't shoot it with a high release (Allen did), which means it should be more blockable, but his quick step and super quick release mitigates that considerably.

Everything about Curry's motion is right in line, remains in line, and is incredibly simple. He's a guy you'd really like to emulate when it comes to distance shooting.
 

djbayko

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Wat?? There was a time before mini-basketball hoops????
Actually, I grew up with adjustables. It's just that everyone I know only ever lowered them when we wanted to screw around. At every age, if we were playing a competitive game or shooting around, it seemed important to do so at regulation.
 

maufman

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Isn’t the JBA an idea that was ripe 10 years ago?

I’m sure a lot of kids who couldn’t academically qualify or wanted to avoid college for other reasons would’ve benefited from having a place to showcase their skills, but once the NBA drops “one and done” in a couple years, any 18-year old who’s worth watching will have a G-League contract, right? By the time LVB builds the JBA’s brand (setting aside all the things that will need to go right for that to happen), the talent pipeline will have dried up.
 

Royal Reader

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Ugh they actually named the LA team the Ballers.

The good news is hundreds of hours of GTA San Andreas gave me the perfect set of feeling towards Ballers.
 

BigSoxFan

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I’m legitimately impressed they got that many people to watch a gym pickup game with uniforms. Gelo Ball is terrible. Has the athleticism of Vitaly Potapenko. First clip was literally him going up with the wrong hand on a layup.
 

scottyno

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I'd almost be interested in watching one of these games, 269 shots, 107 3s, 58 free throws, and still the game only lasted 2 hours. I guess every game is going to be like this.

 

InstaFace

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LaMelo, playing in Lithuania for a "USA" team drawn from his father's league, gets a possibly-even-friendly tap on the back of the head from an opponent, responds by slapping him in the face, shoving him, and sparking a brawl.

There is pretty fun video.
 

bakahump

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So been awhile since we criticized or defended Lonzo.

(2018 listed first)
What are you thinking now?
I guess there has been some (slight?) improvement
3p% .316>.305
FG% .406>.360
eFG%.484>.440
TS% .486>.444
and some staying the same
WS/48 is about the same .056/.053
TOV% about the same 18.2/18.6
Points/36 about the same 11.4/10.7

Defense still stinks
DRTG 107/106
DWS 1.5/2.5
DBPM 1.7/2.5

And his PER is down slightly to 11.5 from 12.5

I cant say I know how to read these but they dont scream great player.
Tatum who I think we all agree is suffering a sophomore slump
Is at
3pt% .367
FG% .449
eFG% .512
TS% .554
WS/48 .115
(I wont compare TO% as Ball obv has more ball handling responsibility....but Tatum is at 9.8%....just sayin...)
Pts/36 18.4
DRTG about the same at 105
DWS 1.8
DBPM .6
And PER 15.7

Maybe its not fair to compare Lonzo and Jayson (different positions and responsibilities) but there you go.
Maybe Brown is a little better comp
3pt% .288 (ouch) -
FG% .436 +
eFG% .487 +
TS% .513 +
WS/48 .052 -
TO% 11.4 +
Pts/36 16.2 +
DRTG 108 -
DWS 1.1 -
DBPM -.1 -
And PER 11.4 - (barely)


As bad as Jaylen has been this year........he is about as good as Lonzo, save Defense. Which (like the case for Lonzo and TO%) isnt really fair to Brown as he pulls tougher assignments.

Finally Lonzo is playing with the Greatest player in the world. I would have expected an uptick in production as has happened with almost every other Bron teammate ever.

Discuss and tell me why Lonzo is
1. "Good" or "Bad"
2. Desirable in a trade
3. What am I missing about him (Besides the ESPN highlights)
 

lovegtm

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So been awhile since we criticized or defended Lonzo.

(2018 listed first)
What are you thinking now?
I guess there has been some (slight?) improvement
3p% .316>.305
FG% .406>.360
eFG%.484>.440
TS% .486>.444
and some staying the same
WS/48 is about the same .056/.053
TOV% about the same 18.2/18.6
Points/36 about the same 11.4/10.7

Defense still stinks
DRTG 107/106
DWS 1.5/2.5
DBPM 1.7/2.5

And his PER is down slightly to 11.5 from 12.5

I cant say I know how to read these but they dont scream great player.
Tatum who I think we all agree is suffering a sophomore slump
Is at
3pt% .367
FG% .449
eFG% .512
TS% .554
WS/48 .115
(I wont compare TO% as Ball obv has more ball handling responsibility....but Tatum is at 9.8%....just sayin...)
Pts/36 18.4
DRTG about the same at 105
DWS 1.8
DBPM .6
And PER 15.7

Maybe its not fair to compare Lonzo and Jayson (different positions and responsibilities) but there you go.
Maybe Brown is a little better comp
3pt% .288 (ouch) -
FG% .436 +
eFG% .487 +
TS% .513 +
WS/48 .052 -
TO% 11.4 +
Pts/36 16.2 +
DRTG 108 -
DWS 1.1 -
DBPM -.1 -
And PER 11.4 - (barely)


As bad as Jaylen has been this year........he is about as good as Lonzo, save Defense. Which (like the case for Lonzo and TO%) isnt really fair to Brown as he pulls tougher assignments.

Finally Lonzo is playing with the Greatest player in the world. I would have expected an uptick in production as has happened with almost every other Bron teammate ever.

Discuss and tell me why Lonzo is
1. "Good" or "Bad"
2. Desirable in a trade
3. What am I missing about him (Besides the ESPN highlights)
I've been super low on Lonzo since before the draft, and bet a friend $5K that his 2nd contract would be less than $10M AAV.

That said, to answer your 1-3 with the positives:
1. Really high BBIQ, could likely be a good defender in the right situation. Good at getting his teams to play up-tempo and makes lots of good decisions in transition
2. A team thinks that playing next to LeBron has stifled him and exposed his weaknesses without letting him play to his strengths. This is almost certainly true, but it's a matter of degree. Lonzo would look a lot better somewhere like New Orleans.
3. Playing with LeBron is bad for him in particular
 

HomeRunBaker

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So been awhile since we criticized or defended Lonzo.

(2018 listed first)
What are you thinking now?
I guess there has been some (slight?) improvement
3p% .316>.305
FG% .406>.360
eFG%.484>.440
TS% .486>.444
and some staying the same
WS/48 is about the same .056/.053
TOV% about the same 18.2/18.6
Points/36 about the same 11.4/10.7

Defense still stinks
DRTG 107/106
DWS 1.5/2.5
DBPM 1.7/2.5

And his PER is down slightly to 11.5 from 12.5

I cant say I know how to read these but they dont scream great player.
Tatum who I think we all agree is suffering a sophomore slump
Is at
3pt% .367
FG% .449
eFG% .512
TS% .554
WS/48 .115
(I wont compare TO% as Ball obv has more ball handling responsibility....but Tatum is at 9.8%....just sayin...)
Pts/36 18.4
DRTG about the same at 105
DWS 1.8
DBPM .6
And PER 15.7

Maybe its not fair to compare Lonzo and Jayson (different positions and responsibilities) but there you go.
Maybe Brown is a little better comp
3pt% .288 (ouch) -
FG% .436 +
eFG% .487 +
TS% .513 +
WS/48 .052 -
TO% 11.4 +
Pts/36 16.2 +
DRTG 108 -
DWS 1.1 -
DBPM -.1 -
And PER 11.4 - (barely)


As bad as Jaylen has been this year........he is about as good as Lonzo, save Defense. Which (like the case for Lonzo and TO%) isnt really fair to Brown as he pulls tougher assignments.

Finally Lonzo is playing with the Greatest player in the world. I would have expected an uptick in production as has happened with almost every other Bron teammate ever.

Discuss and tell me why Lonzo is
1. "Good" or "Bad"
2. Desirable in a trade
3. What am I missing about him (Besides the ESPN highlights)
Aren't Ball's numbers this year playing next to LeBron without the ball irrelevant in comparison to his rookie numbers? The only numbers that tell any of the story are his shooting numbers which haven't improved much. It will be a small sample but once LeBron returns we can then compare Ball's numbers in those non-LeBron games and compare them to last season......even with the small sample they will be much more meaningful.

I don't mean to downplay your work only pointing out that they don't tell the same story.
 

bakahump

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No, thats a Great point. Like I said I hope someone can make some sense of him/his numbers and explain to me just what Lonzo "is".

The Bron part could be the same thing the Celts are suffering through. Lonzo (and his other teammates to various degrees) need to learn to mesh with Bron. Took Wade and Bosh and co time to do the same in Miami, and as I say we are might be seeing it with Kyrie (to a lesser) and Gordon (along with injury comeback to a greater extent) in Boston.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I watched the first half of Lakers/Thunder last night and he was a total non-factor. The opposite of Rozier stepping up his game without Kyrie, Lonzo wasn’t really taking the opportunity to shine without LeBron (and without Rondo). He has neither the shot nor the athleticism to force the defense to do anything, so he can’t create better shots for his teammates. I’m admitted predisposed to dislike any Laker, but I’ve just never seen the hype with him.
 

the moops

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I've been super low on Lonzo since before the draft, and bet a friend $5K that his 2nd contract would be less than $10M AAV.
Oof. I would not feel good about that bet at all if I was you. In 2021 the full non-taxpayer MLE will likely be north of 10 million dollars
 

Montana Fan

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I was hoping the bump was an indicator that help was on the way for Lebron in the form of LiAngelo and LaMelo. That's happening right?

Insert pic of Big Baller CEO here.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Aren't Ball's numbers this year playing next to LeBron without the ball irrelevant in comparison to his rookie numbers? The only numbers that tell any of the story are his shooting numbers which haven't improved much. It will be a small sample but once LeBron returns we can then compare Ball's numbers in those non-LeBron games and compare them to last season......even with the small sample they will be much more meaningful.

I don't mean to downplay your work only pointing out that they don't tell the same story.
This, plus I have no idea where the “defense still stinks” is coming from. The DBPM numbers Bakahump cited are very good for a point guard. A 1.7 this year is on par with peak Marcus Smart or Pat Beverly, for example, and his 2.5 last year’s was significantly better. And by DRPM he was third last year, behind Dejounte Murray’s elite season: http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2018/sort/DRPM/position/1

I don’t think DRTG or DWS are considered particularly telling of much for individuals outside of the team context though if there’s a case to be made for them, I’m open to hear it. Lonzo fares well in both when looking at the Lakers as a whole. From what I’ve read, the analytics types and the eyeball-test types have been in general agreement that Ball’s defense has been very good.

HRB covered the offense. It’s hard to overstate the impact playing with Lebron has had, but his shooting is a disappointment. A lot of us thought he was a guy who required a specific system to excel, which already makes him less valuable to a plug-and-play guard, but if he’s shooting well below replacement on spot-ups that makes him even more of a square peg.

I don’t know how close you can get to approximating Steve Alford’s system in the NBA (though he has some free time on his hands now), but it’d be fun to a team try with Lonzo. But that team obviously isn’t going to be the Lakers as currently constructed.
 
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BigSoxFan

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You, uh, looking for any more action?
Ha, seriously. There are currently 126 players making $10M+, up from 118 a year ago. That number is obviously going to rise due to salary inflation. Lovetgm might as well pay up now.
 

lovegtm

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Ha, seriously. There are currently 126 players making $10M+, up from 118 a year ago. That number is obviously going to rise due to salary inflation. Lovetgm might as well pay up now.
I was low enough on Lonzo pre-draft that it was meant to be a bet that he'd basically be out of the league, or back of the rotation at best.

I like him a little better now to stick in the league now that I've seen him, so I wouldn't make that bet currently (at least at even odds). But it doesn't take much for a top pick to not get paid on his 2nd contract, and Lonzo fits the profile of guys who don't get paid: it's hard to dream on him as a primary/secondary scorer. 2.5 more years of bricking shots and showing no ability to create a shot would hurt his market a ton.

I'd take action at 3-1 odds now at any number up to $10K, but I don't want to clutter up the thread, so slide into my DMs if serious.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I like him a little better now to stick in the league now that I've seen him, so I wouldn't make that bet currently (at least at even odds). But it doesn't take much for a top pick to not get paid on his 2nd contract, and Lonzo fits the profile of guys who don't get paid: it's hard to dream on him as a primary/secondary scorer. 2.5 more years of bricking shots and showing no ability to create a shot would hurt his market a ton.
In the first 3 non-LeBron games prior to last night Ball has done well shooting and creating his own shot though....

8-13 (4-6 from 3)
7-16 (3-8 from 3)
6-14 (1-6 from 3)

At this point you really need to hope for a Shaun Livingston-type injury to win your bet. Sorry I had to use that example but that really is how I feel.
 

lovegtm

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In the first 3 non-LeBron games prior to last night Ball has done well shooting and creating his own shot though....

8-13 (4-6 from 3)
7-16 (3-8 from 3)
6-14 (1-6 from 3)

At this point you really need to hope for a Shaun Livingston-type injury to win your bet. Sorry I had to use that example but that really is how I feel.
Yeah, I didn't mean to sidetrack things with the bet, was just meant to illustrate how I felt about him pre-draft.

The best thing for Lonzo would be to get off the LeBron Lakers asap, for exactly the reasons you note there.
 

Kliq

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I think Lonzo is going to have a good NBA career, but probably one below the expectations of a No. 2 overall pick, especially one that was picked in front of Tatum. To me he's going to be a solid NBA player thanks to his skills (vision, high BBIQ, good size for his position, defense) but his ceiling is pretty limited if he can't shoot and he can't get to the rim (how much can great vision get you if you can't break down the defense and get into the paint on a consistent basis?) and those are pretty big flaws. He's going to end up being much more like Ricky Rubio than Jason Kidd.
 

cheech13

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I think Lonzo is going to have a good NBA career, but probably one below the expectations of a No. 2 overall pick, especially one that was picked in front of Tatum. To me he's going to be a solid NBA player thanks to his skills (vision, high BBIQ, good size for his position, defense) but his ceiling is pretty limited if he can't shoot and he can't get to the rim (how much can great vision get you if you can't break down the defense and get into the paint on a consistent basis?) and those are pretty big flaws. He's going to end up being much more like Ricky Rubio than Jason Kidd.
Rubio seemed like the most apt comp at the time of the draft based on Ball's skillset: long defender, good vision and passing, suspect shooting and lack of ability to create offense. That still sounds like him. He'll probably settle in for a long career as a middle of the pack PG. The kind of guy you're comfortable with as a starter but who you'd secretly wish you could upgrade from.