Liverpool 2019-2020: Let's Talk About Six, Baby

PedroSpecialK

Comes at you like a tornado of hair and the NHL sa
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2004
27,164
Cambridge, MA
Continuing on from @Dummy Hoy's comment in the Chelsea thread re: Werner:

What's the point of having the best recruitment staff in the world if you won't pay for the players they want?

Maybe John Henry should sell some bricks from Anfield to try to raise some funds since he's so strapped for cash.
/glares in Dave Dombrowski's direction

Not much to say - it's clear Klopp wanted him, he would have been a perfect fit in allowing Firmino to play deeper and go with the 4-4-2 diamond that worked well in the last few months of Coutinho's tenure as an alternate look to the 4-3-3, but it is what it is. They could waste the entirety of Mane / Salah / Van Dijk's primes at this point and I wouldn't mind, given the league and UCL title in the past calendar year. I don't think they have the financial flexibility, nor are they enamored enough, with Kai Havertz as an alternative, and Mbappe is laughable to even suggest with Madrid lurking.

I still think they are in a good place to defend their title in the coming season, but it's obvious with Chelsea spending big and United / City sure to splash cash, the competition will be as stiff as ever. Thankfully, Spurs are broke!

In: Harry Wilson, Marko Grujic, Rhian Brewster (loans ending)
Out: Adam Lallana, Xherdan Shaqiri, Nathaniel Clyne

First choice attack: Mane, Firmino, Salah
Attack cover: Minamino, Origi, Wilson, Elliott, Brewster

First choice midfield: Henderson, Wijnaldum, Fabinho
Midfield cover: Oxlade-Chamberlain, Keita, Milner, Grujic, Jones

16 deep for 6 positions seems adequate, though I wouldn't be surprised if Wilson is sold and veteran attacking cover is brought in. Defensive cover is a bigger need in all likelihood.

First choice defense: Robertson, Van Dijk, Gomez, Alexander-Arnold
Defense cover: Matip, Lovren, Hoever, van den Berg

Karius is coming back from loan at Besiktas but I doubt he'd be kept as a backup on his wages, so maybe the job is Kelleher's.
 
Last edited:

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
Still wouldn’t be (unpleasantly) surprised if Lovren leaves. This season seems perfect for swap deals .. Roma still appears to be interested. The only position that’s less than deep is LB cover for Robertson. Given his importance I can see a young LB/CB brought in. Milner is an adequate replacement for a few games but a serious injury to Robertson could be devastating.

Sucks about Werner .. guess they weren’t kidding about being strapped financially. A 50m release clause for a player of Werner’s caliber is peanuts.

Really hoping Minamino steps up and grasps the opportunity.

So the Merseyside derby is set for Sunday the 21st at 7pm BST ( 3pm for me . 4pm EDT) location to be determined next week according to reports. It’s really really really nice to be talking about fixtures and lineups and transfers , as opposed the null and void or curtailment!

Have to dig up my long dormant FPL team as well! Still in the hunt for top 4 in the Sosh head to head league.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
Continuing on from @Dummy Hoy's comment in the Chelsea thread re: Werner:


/glares in Dave Dombrowski's direction

Not much to say - it's clear Klopp wanted him, he would have been a perfect fit in allowing Firmino to play deeper and go with the 4-4-2 diamond that worked well in the last few months of Coutinho's tenure as an alternate look to the 4-3-3, but it is what it is. They could waste the entirety of Mane / Salah / Van Dijk's primes I don't think they have the financial flexibility, nor are they enamored enough, with Kai Havertz as an alternative, and Mbappe is laughable to even suggest with Madrid lurking.

I still think they are in a good place to defend their title in the coming season, but it's obvious with Chelsea spending big and United / City sure to splash cash, the competition will be as stiff as ever. Thankfully, Spurs are broke!

In: Harry Wilson, Marko Grujic, Rhian Brewster (loans ending)
Out: Adam Lallana, Xherdan Shaqiri, Nathaniel Clyne

First choice attack: Mane, Firmino, Salah
Attack cover: Minamino, Origi, Wilson, Elliott, Brewster

First choice midfield: Henderson, Wijnaldum, Fabinho
Midfield cover: Oxlade-Chamberlain, Keita, Milner, Grujic, Jones

16 deep for 6 positions seems adequate, though I wouldn't be surprised if Wilson is sold and veteran attacking cover is brought in. Defensive cover is a bigger need in all likelihood.

First choice defense: Robertson, Van Dijk, Gomez, Alexander-Arnold
Defense cover: Matip, Lovren, Hoever, van den Berg

Karius is coming back from loan at Besiktas but I doubt he'd be kept as a backup on his wages, so maybe the job is Kelleher's.
That’s a very thoughtful reply to Dummy’s trolling.

It stinks to miss out on Werner who is entering his prime, wants to play here, is such a great fit for the tactics, and has already shown great ability. I doubt he’ll flop at Chelsea, but LFC has a strong recent track record of fiscal prudence. They’ve laid out record breaking fees for the right guys - VVD & Alison - made smart bargain purchases, and reinvested in the squad’s core players. Have to trust the process that has gotten the club to this point.

Plus, Lampard doesn’t know his ass from his elbow. He’ll squander this.
 

PedroSpecialK

Comes at you like a tornado of hair and the NHL sa
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2004
27,164
Cambridge, MA
Whoops - left a sentence to nowhere in my post, meant to say they could waste all their primes and I'd still be happy overall given the UCL and EPL titles within a year
 
Last edited:

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
That’s a very thoughtful reply to Dummy’s trolling.

It stinks to miss out on Werner who is entering his prime, wants to play here, is such a great fit for the tactics, and has already shown great ability. I doubt he’ll flop at Chelsea, but LFC has a strong recent track record of fiscal prudence. They’ve laid out record breaking fees for the right guys - VVD & Alison - made smart bargain purchases, and reinvested in the squad’s core players. Have to trust the process that has gotten the club to this point.

Plus, Lampard doesn’t know his ass from his elbow. He’ll squander this.
I think the key point is “the right guys” .. or, more accurately the right guys to fill positions of real need. When you have a glaring hole in the lineup it’s pretty easy to justify spending big to fill it. Werner, on the other hand was going to be, at least initially , a complimentary player and long term protection against any of the front three leaving.

Plus, you always worry about team psychology when bringing in a player of Werner’s stature. What kind of message is that sending to Mane or Salah?

For those that scoff at this kind of stuff It’s quite illuminating reading about Fernando Torre’s decline and fall at Liverpool. Sometimes you have to coddle player’s egos to get the most out of them.

https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2017/04/fernando-torres-on-his-anfield-exit-a-complete-chapter-from-ring-of-fire-liverpool-into-the-21st-century-the-players-stories/
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
I think the key point is “the right guys” .. or, more accurately the right guys to fill positions of real need. When you have a glaring hole in the lineup it’s pretty easy to justify spending big to fill it. Werner, on the other hand was going to be, at least initially , a complimentary player and long term protection against any of the front three leaving.

Plus, you always worry about team psychology when bringing in a player of Werner’s stature. What kind of message is that sending to Mane or Salah?

For those that scoff at this kind of stuff It’s quite illuminating reading about Fernando Torre’s decline and fall at Liverpool. Sometimes you have to coddle player’s egos to get the most out of them.

https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2017/04/fernando-torres-on-his-anfield-exit-a-complete-chapter-from-ring-of-fire-liverpool-into-the-21st-century-the-players-stories/
good point. If I’m being honest, the part that gives me pause is the apparently split between Klopp and the front office. The pieces I’ve read so far make it seem like Klopp was all in on Werner. Not that I think this will sour the LFC-Klopp relationship, but rather than Klopp knows the squad so well and has a long track record of identifying his guys.

I wonder about Memphis Depay as a buy low option - a year left on his contract and rehabbing an ACL injury. Obviously he knew would have to check out, but he could actually cover for Firmino and provide depth on the wings.
 

SocrManiac

Tommy Seebach’s mustache
SoSH Member
Apr 15, 2006
8,634
Somers, CT
I wonder how pissed TAA is that Robbo got an "assist" on Fabinho's thunderstrike. We know they're competing, but that falls into a "Dude, really?" category.
 

swiftaw

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2009
3,434
I wonder how pissed TAA is that Robbo got an "assist" on Fabinho's thunderstrike. We know they're competing, but that falls into a "Dude, really?" category.
Just like Van Dijk got an assist for being fouled for TAA's free kick.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Liverpool being the earliest team to clinch the title AND the latest team to clinch the title is pretty cool.
 

Dummy Hoy

Angry Pissbum
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2006
8,232
Falmouth
Congratulations. Probably one of the most impressive top flight campaigns in 131 years of playing this game.

The job that has been done at Liverpool since FSG took over has been nothing short of remarkable. While I don’t think anyone deserves anything in football, this squad earned all of the platitudes that have been bestowed upon them. And while it doesn’t actually mean more, I know how special this is for the fans. So congratulations and I hope you’re all celebrating and feeling an immense sense of satisfaction. Cheers.
 

SoxFanInCali

has the rich, deep voice of a god
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 3, 2005
15,568
California. Duh.
Matip is out for the rest of the year with a foot injury, so be prepared for some more of the Dejan Lovren Experience in the last few games.
 
Last edited:

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
Matip is out for the rest of the year with a for injury, so be prepared for some more of the Dejan Lovren Experience in the last few games.
There goes the points record....

I’m actually hoping Gomez can use this opportunity to lock down the job next to VVD. He’s grown so much as a game-reader and positioner since VVD arrived, but the only way he’ll continue to improve is to get regular starts. No disrespect to Matip, but I think he’s done developing. I believe Gomez has another level he can unlock running alongside VVD.
 

SoxFanInCali

has the rich, deep voice of a god
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 3, 2005
15,568
California. Duh.
There goes the points record....

I’m actually hoping Gomez can use this opportunity to lock down the job next to VVD. He’s grown so much as a game-reader and positioner since VVD arrived, but the only way he’ll continue to improve is to get regular starts. No disrespect to Matip, but I think he’s done developing. I believe Gomez has another level he can unlock running alongside VVD.
Yeah, I think Gomez will be the first choice in the run-in, but with 7 games in 24 days they're going to need to rotate some. Hopefully nobody on the back line gets injured, since with Milner hurting as well Gomez is probably the first backup for the fullbacks.
 

swiftaw

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2009
3,434
Yeah, I think Gomez will be the first choice in the run-in, but with 7 games in 24 days they're going to need to rotate some. Hopefully nobody on the back line gets injured, since with Milner hurting as well Gomez is probably the first backup for the fullbacks.
They've got Williams who can play Right Back, but don't really have a back up Left back.
 

SocrManiac

Tommy Seebach’s mustache
SoSH Member
Apr 15, 2006
8,634
Somers, CT
Did we ever figure out what actually happened to Matip? It was a scrap with Richarlison that got him hurt, and it didn’t look unlike a stamp at first glance.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
If I recall it’s a dislocated big toe .. beyond that I’ve not heard anything. Mind you, just had a poke around on the InterWeb and there were no details discovered .. so , I’m not even sure where I heard about the big toe .. maybe in Klopp’s post game comments?
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
Harvey Elliott sings a professional deal.

And Adam Lallana is done at Liverpool. Klopp called him a “legend” today and praised him as a model worker for his squads. But Lallana will be rested for the last 5 matches to keep him healthy so he can sign a new contract. Very kind and probably wise of Klopp. Rumor is Lallana is headed for a reunion with Brendan Rodgers. Good luck to him. The injuries robbed him of some great seasons.
 

swiftaw

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2009
3,434
Lallana to Leicester seems weird since they have a glut of midfielders, unless they think they won't be able to keep Maddison.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
The Captain avoids surgery but he is done for the season. Klopp hopes Henderson is ready to start next season.
 

5050HindSight

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,390
Upstate NY
I poked around this and previous iterations of the annual LFC thread, but, though I may have missed something, I didn't see anything and was curious: have any of you read David Peace's "Red or Dead"?

For starters, I don't post in here much, but I'll share how I came to follow LFC: I grew up in the Boston area (Lynn) following and rooting for the same teams my dad did... Red Sox, Patriots, Celtics, and sometimes Bruins. He was never into soccer, and so I wasn't either. I never played it, never followed it, never watched it. I'd get curious every four years when the World Cup came around (10 year old me thought Maradonna was the coolest) but this sport was an almost complete blind spot for me. In 2010 I was out of work and had just started dating my now wife, so had a lot of time on my hands and probably after reading an article on ESPN became curious in the Premier League. Coincidentally, about a week after I started poking around the EPL, Fenway Sports Group purchased Liverpool and I felt like it made a lot of sense to start following the team. And the last 10 years have been such a fun ride! I even managed to attend the LFC - Roma friendly at Fenway in 2014.

Anyway, over the years I've managed to pick up quite a bit about the team and the sport...the current squad, many of the other teams and players, much of the rules, and lingo. But one thing I've never really been able to grasp is the rich history of the club. I've seen Peace's book mentioned a few times over the years, but decided to pick it up and... it's like nothing I've ever read before. (Confession: until 5 minutes ago, I thought it was written by LFC beat writer James Pearce... whoops!) I'm only about 20% in, but it basically follows Bill Shankly's tenure with the team (at least so far) and how he turned them from a 2nd division squad into one of the best teams in England/Europe. The book is incredible in it's detail, and the story is interesting, but it's told in a repetitious style that is like nothing I've ever encountered before... equal parts tedious, mesmerizing, meditative, and soothing. At times I want to just skim for the story and get to the next part, but at other times, I find the style to be an absolute delight. I feel like it's a book that our own @fletcherpost has either read six times or, equally plausibly, wrote.

For example, here's a 500 word passage on Bill Shankly getting dressed for a big game that I think captures all of those qualities:

Bill walked over to the bed. Bill picked up his shirt and Bill put on his shirt. His brand-new red shirt. Bill went to the dressing table. Bill opened the top drawer. Bill took out his cufflinks. His gold cufflinks. Bill closed the drawer. Bill did up the cuffs of his shirt. His brand-new red shirt. Bill went to the wardrobe. Bill opened the doors. Bill took out his suit. His freshly cleaned grey suit with the white pinstripe. Bill left the wardrobe doors open. Bill walked over to the bed. Bill laid out the suit on top of the bed covers. Bill took the trousers from the coat hanger. Bill put on the trousers of his suit. His freshly cleaned grey suit with the white pinstripe. Bill went back to the dressing table. Bill opened the second drawer of the dressing table. Bill took out a red tie. The red tie his daughters had given him for Christmas. The red tie Bill had never worn before. Bill closed the drawer. Bill walked back to the wardrobe. The doors still open. Bill stood before the mirror on the back of one of the doors. Bill put on his tie. His red tie. Bill went back over to the bed. Bill picked up the jacket from the bed. Bill took the jacket from the coat hanger. Bill put on the jacket of his suit. His freshly cleaned grey suit with the white pinstripe. Bill walked back over to the dressing table. Bill opened the top drawer of the dressing table again. Bill took out one white handkerchief and one red pocket square. Bill closed the drawer. Bill put the white handkerchief in his left trouser pocket. Bill laid the red pocket square on the top of the dressing table. It looked like a red diamond. Bill brought the bottom point of the red pocket square up to the top point. It looked like a red triangle. Bill brought the left corner of the triangle to the right corner and then the right corner to the left corner. It looked like a long red rectangle with a point at the top. Bill folded the bottom almost towards the top. Bill walked back over to the mirror on the back of the wardrobe door. Bill stood before the mirror. Bill placed the red pocket square in the breast pocket of his grey jacket. Bill looked in the mirror. Bill adjusted the pocket square until just enough of the point was coming out of the pocket. The red point out of the grey pocket. Bill stepped back a little from the mirror. In the house, their semi-detached house on Bellefield Avenue, West Derby. In the bedroom, in the mirror. Bill looked at himself, Bill saw himself. And Bill smiled. Today, Chelsea Football Club were coming to Anfield, Liverpool. Today, the world would be coming to Anfield, too. Today, Bill knew the world would be watching Liverpool Football Club. And Bill could not wait, Bill just could not wait.
Anyway, would love to hear about other people's experiences with the book, the Shankly days, whatever. Cheers!
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
Lovren close to move to Zenit. There’s an agreed ups on €12m fee already.

The dude was infuriating in the pitch, but that Athletic article about his youth made me more sympathetic to him a person.

On the other hand, Zenit has some of the scummiest fans on earth, so fuck that club.
 

SocrManiac

Tommy Seebach’s mustache
SoSH Member
Apr 15, 2006
8,634
Somers, CT
My wife was on the cover of the Boston Globe a few years ago when we went to the Roma game. It just showed up in my Facebook feed. It's insane how late this season has run.

https://www.boston.com/sports/untagged/2014/07/23/fenway-goes-soccer-er-football if anybody is wondering. The dude "next" to her is a fucking monster in the row in front of us. My arm is at the left of the picture. That's the extent of my 15 minutes of fame in this life.
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,016
Chelmsford, MA
Although I think KDB should have it you won’t get many arguments from me about a Liverpool player getting it after dominating the league. However, Henderson seems like one of those embarrassing choices writers make when they get swept up in Captain Intangibles garbage. Mane or TAA or Van Dijk were far more critical to your success imo.
 

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,846
Yeah this award is a joke. Henderson was like the sixth or seventh best player on his own team this season. I would have picked TAA, VVD, Salah, Allison, Robertson, and Mane above him.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
Although I think KDB should have it you won’t get many arguments from me about a Liverpool player getting it after dominating the league. However, Henderson seems like one of those embarrassing choices writers make when they get swept up in Captain Intangibles garbage. Mane or TAA or Van Dijk were far more critical to your success imo.
Sure, KDB was the best player in matches, but how many rousing half time speeches did he give? How many training ground dust ups did he quell? How many texts did he send checking in on teammates???
 

Vinho Tinto

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 9, 2003
7,047
Auburn, MA
Yeah this award is a joke. Henderson was like the sixth or seventh best player on his own team this season. I would have picked TAA, VVD, Salah, Allison, Robertson, and Mane above him.
It's strange with opinions on Henderson. He's either winning the media's player of the year or viewed as just a guy by many fans. Allison is world class. He also missed nearly 3 months to start the season. The club was 8 points up when he returned vs ManU. Henderson didn't earn Liverpool and England armband by having cool eyes and a gait. He brings a lot to the table on the actual pitch. For me, he was their best player when they won the world title vs Flamengo. I wouldn't have voted for him, but he also is not just along for the ride while the club is racking up trophies.

Edit: The award itself has a goofy history. No City player has ever won it. During the Shiek's ownership, there have been multiple seasons where the best player has been at City. Just checked wiki and Sterling won last season's winner. So the article I read was wrong.
 
Last edited:

coremiller

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,846
It's strange with opinions on Henderson. He's either winning the media's player of the year or viewed as just a guy by many fans. Allison is world class. He also missed nearly 3 months to start the season. The club was 8 points up when he returned vs ManU. Henderson didn't earn Liverpool and England armband by having cool eyes and a gait. He brings a lot to the table on the actual pitch. For me, he was their best player when they won the world title vs Flamengo. I wouldn't have voted for him, but he also is not just along for the ride while the club is racking up trophies.

Edit: The award itself has a goofy history. No City player has ever won it. During the Shiek's ownership, there have been multiple seasons where the best player has been at City.
I think Henderson is a very good player. He's better than Just a Guy. But Liverpool are stacked right now. Being the sixth best player on Liverpool is no crime.

It's so like the English press to look at a team like Liverpool and pick the white English guy as the most important player because of his intangibles.
 

Vinho Tinto

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 9, 2003
7,047
Auburn, MA
It's so like the English press to look at a team like Liverpool and pick the white English guy as the most important player because of his intangibles.
This is very true. John Cross was referencing the philanthropy Henderson has done this year during Covid. Very admirable, but it was all he talked about when stating the case for him.

Digging a little deeper, there aren't too many strange choices listed over the recent years; but Scott Parker ('11) stands out.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
I don’t think anyone really believes Henderson was LFC’s best player .. as previously mentioned there are four or five guys who were more important. But, none of them were better than KDB .. and the English press were only giving this to a Liverpool player .. so they picked the Captain. I think of it as kind of a group award.

Until last year I never much rated Henderson .. but , when moved into the 6 position he thrived. And when setting up as the RM in the preferred lineup he’s been very good as well.

As for the team I’d rank them

VVD, Mane, Allison, TAA, Salah , Robertson.


Liverpool are ridiculously blessed with two of the best FBs in football .. the whole team strategy is dependent on those two guys bombing forward .. leaving the midfield to control the game.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,730
Lallana decides on Brighton over Leicester. It’s a 3yr deal with a pathway into coaching. Hope he stays healthy and has an Ings-esque revival. He can play a good role for Brighton, much more involved than Leicester’s crowded midfield.
 

candylandriots

unkempt
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 30, 2004
12,327
Berlin
Yeah this award is a joke. Henderson was like the sixth or seventh best player on his own team this season. I would have picked TAA, VVD, Salah, Allison, Robertson, and Mane above him.
Wait I read this the other day on a Twitter daily email I get for some reason and literally thought it was a joke. Good grief.