Let's talk about this ballclub.

DeadlySplitter

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Matt Hall has a career ERA of above 9, and he's going to be a "bulk" pitcher on this staff? We're swinging at all this garbage with him, Godley....

we're fucked this decade if Sale is toast.
 

RedOctober3829

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Matt Hall has a career ERA of above 9, and he's going to be a "bulk" pitcher on this staff? We're swinging at all this garbage with him, Godley....

we're fucked this decade if Sale is toast.
Got to put trust in Bloom’s reputation in finding the right scrap heap guys in Tampa. Hopefully as long as there’s a season they should be players in FA as well.
 

nighthob

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Matt Hall has a career ERA of above 9, and he's going to be a "bulk" pitcher on this staff? We're swinging at all this garbage with him, Godley....

we're fucked this decade if Sale is toast.
On the other hand, is it a bd thing if Boston’s real down year is the 60 game season? Getting a top ten pick next year might not be a bad thing.
 

DeadlySplitter

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On the other hand, is it a bd thing if Boston’s real down year is the 60 game season? Getting a top ten pick next year might not be a bad thing.
I'm talking more beyond this season. We were bargain binning for SPs desperately last season too.

The most underrated part of 2018 (and perhaps arguably any championship run) was overall health of the team. Sale fell apart relatively after July as he seems to always do, but other than that...

Second most underrated part was how much the bullpen overperformed in the 2018 postseason with Cora's "rover" antics, as well as Kelly/Barnes just playing way over their heads. The Sox need a ton more talent in all their pitching departments, it's been true since Lester left. It took a lot of money to patch it up for a few years but now the Sox need to make shrewd trades or draft it.
 
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BornToRun

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I'm talking more beyond this season. We were bargain binning for SPs desperately last season too.

The most underrated part of 2018 (and perhaps arguably any championship run) was overall health of the team. Sale fell apart relatively after July as he seems to always do, but other than that...

Second most underrated part was how much the bullpen overperformed in the 2018 postseason with Cora's "rover" antics, as well as Kelly/Barnes just playing way over their heads. The Sox need a ton more talent in all their pitching departments, it's been true since Lester left. It took a lot of money to patch it up for a few years but now the Sox need to make shrewd trades or draft it.
The 2018 bullpen was never as bad as it was made out to be. Cora’s roving antics didn’t salvage a bad pen, they elevated a solid one.
 

jon abbey

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I'm talking more beyond this season. We were bargain binning for SPs desperately last season too.
Bloom has a really tough road ahead, not just NY and TB look loaded for a while, but TOR is stockpiling an impressive looking future core and BAL adds a new top 3 pick every year.

I will say again that these things can flip a lot faster than it seems possible, NY seemed hopelessly behind BOS in terms of talent in mid-2016 and that flipped shockingly fast.
 

nighthob

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I'm talking more beyond this season. We were bargain binning for SPs desperately last season too.

The most underrated part of 2018 (and perhaps arguably any championship run) was overall health of the team. Sale fell apart relatively after July as he seems to always do, but other than that...

Second most underrated part was how much the bullpen overperformed in the 2018 postseason with Cora's "rover" antics, as well as Kelly/Barnes just playing way over their heads. The Sox need a ton more talent in all their pitching departments, it's been true since Lester left. It took a lot of money to patch it up for a few years but now the Sox need to make shrewd trades or draft it.
Yeah, I agree that there isn’t a quick fix here. Part of being able to use free agency as a team building strategy is having a good talent pipeline so that you have low-priced performing talent around the anchor deals. And the cupboard’s pretty bare at the moment. Which is why a terrible finish this year isn’t the worst result, it does allow them to add higher end talent to the pool presuming they draft wisely.

Everyone is confident that this is a one year blip before they go on another spending spree, but I would rather not see them forced into dealing Rafi in three years in order to get out from under whatever unfortunate deals they signed (and the selection of Bloom argues against them going back to the Dombrowski approach).
 

RedOctober3829

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Bloom has a really tough road ahead, not just NY and TB look loaded for a while, but TOR is stockpiling an impressive looking future core and BAL adds a new top 3 pick every year.

I will say again that these things can flip a lot faster than it seems possible, NY seemed hopelessly behind BOS in terms of talent in mid-2016 and that flipped shockingly fast.
It flipped after Cashman made all those trades at the deadline in 2016(I think that’s the year). He drafted well beforehand, but that deadline escalated things. Getting Torres was a master stroke. He also got fortunate that Judge is as good as he is. He was not projected to be as good an overall hitter as he is. He’s also gotten very fortunate health with Tanaka. It’s a miracle he hasn’t needed TJ surgery. Other fortunate scrap heap guys or low rated prospects are Urshela, Voit, Tauchman, and Estrada. Cashman also did well with FAs too. Chapman, Ottavino, Paxton, Tanaka all have worked out. The Hicks trade was really good too.
 

oumbi

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Matt Hall has a career ERA of above 9, and he's going to be a "bulk" pitcher on this staff? We're swinging at all this garbage with him, Godley....

we're fucked this decade if Sale is toast.
I checked his stats given the ERA you mention. I am not saying how Hall will perform with the Sox, but he is 26 years old and has a total of 31.1 innings pitching in the major leagues over two seasons. So, a pretty small sample size.

He also has 32 strike outs in those 31.1 innings. Maybe Bloom sees a very specific role for him.
 

Saints Rest

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Is this the shakiest looking SP rotation for the Sox in recent memory?

Even with a healthy ERod, it's a thin rotation, and one where probably every single pitcher is slotted at least one spot above his level.

What other rotations can compete for being overmatched?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I checked his stats given the ERA you mention. I am not saying how Hall will perform with the Sox, but he is 26 years old and has a total of 31.1 innings pitching in the major leagues over two seasons. So, a pretty small sample size.

He also has 32 strike outs in those 31.1 innings. Maybe Bloom sees a very specific role for him.
9.48 ERA over 31 innings or 2.97 ERA over 500 innings, which is likely more indicative of his talent? The latter is his cumulative minor league totals over parts of 5 seasons, most of which were as a starter. I'm guessing Bloom is betting on him being more like his minor league self prior to the 2019 season, rather than the guy who struggled at all levels last year.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Is this the shakiest looking SP rotation for the Sox in recent memory?

Even with a healthy ERod, it's a thin rotation, and one where probably every single pitcher is slotted at least one spot above his level.

What other rotations can compete for being overmatched?
I think there's a really good chance that this rotation is the worst since the pre-Clemens days. It looks like some of those early 90s teams if Clemens, like Sale, were out. Or the late 90s/early 00s teams if Pedro were out. Bad. Better chance that guys like Weber and Perez put up ERAs over 5 than under 4.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think there's a really good chance that this rotation is the worst since the pre-Clemens days. It looks like some of those early 90s teams if Clemens, like Sale, were out. Or the late 90s/early 00s teams if Pedro were out. Bad. Better chance that guys like Weber and Perez put up ERAs over 5 than under 4.
How about 1997, the year between Clemens and Pedro? A rotation fronted by Aaron Sele, Tim Wakefield, and Tom "on his way to the bullpen" Gordon. Also featuring a green Jeff Suppan, a broken Steve Avery, and legends such as John Wasdin, Vaughn Eshelman, and Chris Hammond.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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How about 1997, the year between Clemens and Pedro? A rotation fronted by Aaron Sele, Tim Wakefield, and Tom "on his way to the bullpen" Gordon. Also featuring a green Jeff Suppan, a broken Steve Avery, and legends such as John Wasdin, Vaughn Eshelman, and Chris Hammond.
Ugh. Yes, good call. Fortunately, Duquette pulled off his two biggest deals that season and offseason, setting up everything that followed.

If Bloom can deal Workman for two future foundational pieces, and find the next Pedro, we’ll be fine. :)
 

OCD SS

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View: https://twitter.com/RedSoxBeisbol/status/1283568587026857989


I thought this was a pretty cool perspective, even if the glove is in the way.
Effectively Wild podcast had a short bit on using a 'catcher-cam' as far back as the early aughts. Apparently they had a couple models, but the one you'd need for broadcast quality was around 11 oz and had some kinks. Apparently they got better results from putting the camera on the home plate ump (better view, less shaking), but the ump's union wouldn't go along with it as in their view they'd generating additional revenue without getting paid more. Not sure how this squares with them potentially being mic'd up for big games now, but it would add a lot; a high quality A/V feed of this view would be amazing, and would add a lot to broadcasts that are going to be struggling to find viewers.
 

NickEsasky

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Unfortunately, this is what happens when your organization can't find and develop a successful starting pitcher in a decade. Dombrowski certainly did his part to empty the cupboards to get us a WS, and his allocation of money left a lot to be desired over the last few years. But the failure is one of drafting and player development. Outside of Lester and Buccholz, what starting pitcher has this team developed over the last many years?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Unfortunately, this is what happens when your organization can't find and develop a successful starting pitcher in a decade. Dombrowski certainly did his part to empty the cupboards to get us a WS, and his allocation of money left a lot to be desired over the last few years. But the failure is one of drafting and player development. Outside of Lester and Buccholz, what starting pitcher has this team developed over the last many years?
And prior to those guys, who was the last quality starting pitcher the team drafted and developed? Finding good to great major league starting pitchers through the draft isn't easy. There are always going to be more misses than hits. Even the system that produced Lester and Buchholz also produced duds like first rounders (including 1st round supplementals) Michael Bowden, Kris Johnson, Caleb Clay, Bryan Price, Casey Kelly, Anthony Ranuado, and Henry Owens.

They may not have drafted or originally signed Eduardo Rodriguez, but they got him when he was still a prospect so I don't think he deserves to be overlooked in this sort of discussion. Maybe there's another one like him to be swiped from another team? Bloom might be the guy who can find him.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Yes, lots of teams miss on pitching. TINSTAAPP. The Orioles picked in the top 5 for 6 straight years (07-12) and took 4 pitchers: Matusz, Hobgood, Bundy, Gausman. No Cy Youngs from that group (yet!).

We don’t pick that high often (never in the top 3 or 5), but whiffing on Ball when we did pick #7 hurt. And if Groome doesn’t pan out (still too early to call), it will be another relatively high pick and opportunity wasted. But that’s not uncommon.
 

nvalvo

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Speaking of Rodriguez, Roenicke says that "his tests have gone well" (whatever that means) and he's been throwing.

Obviously he's out for Opening Day, but it sounds like he's expected back sooner rather than later.
 

Max Power

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Yes, lots of teams miss on pitching. TINSTAAPP. The Orioles picked in the top 5 for 6 straight years (07-12) and took 4 pitchers: Matusz, Hobgood, Bundy, Gausman. No Cy Youngs from that group (yet!).

We don’t pick that high often (never in the top 3 or 5), but whiffing on Ball when we did pick #7 hurt. And if Groome doesn’t pan out (still too early to call), it will be another relatively high pick and opportunity wasted. But that’s not uncommon.
I guess, but it seems like the Red Sox are particularly bad at identifying starting pitching prospects. How many Red Sox draft picks or international signings have made 20 starts in a season for any team in the last 10 years? That could include anyone who came all the way through the system or was used as a trade chip. And not Cy Young winners, but anyone who holds down a job in a major league rotation. There's Lester, Buchholz, and... ?
 

Red Right Arm

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I guess, but it seems like the Red Sox are particularly bad at identifying starting pitching prospects. How many Red Sox draft picks or international signings have made 20 starts in a season for any team in the last 10 years? That could include anyone who came all the way through the system or was used as a trade chip. And not Cy Young winners, but anyone who holds down a job in a major league rotation. There's Lester, Buchholz, and... ?
Anibal Sanchez? It's... not a great list.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I guess, but it seems like the Red Sox are particularly bad at identifying starting pitching prospects. How many Red Sox draft picks or international signings have made 20 starts in a season for any team in the last 10 years? That could include anyone who came all the way through the system or was used as a trade chip. And not Cy Young winners, but anyone who holds down a job in a major league rotation. There's Lester, Buchholz, and... ?
Felix Doubront, Justin Masterson
 

sean1562

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Who knows what Kopech will turn into but, considering he turned into Sale, he should probably count too? We have had the money to buy pitchers on the open market because of our position player talent. The big issue is that we no longer have any talent at all so need to go out and spend money on everybody if we are going to be competitive. We should punt this season if it happens anyway, we are not going to be a competitive team. Let Groome pitch, see if Darwinzon is a key bullpen piece moving forward, let some of those AAA guys get innings to see if they can be a 5 starter.
 

DeadlySplitter

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The position player core of the four B's in the outfield & SS, Devers, and a decent catcher in Vazquez demanded Dombrowski to go all in. I mean, presumably the brass hired him to complement that core with that. Maybe Henry knew deep down after the window was over he was going to have to fire him!

The only reason I want this season to happen, if it's safe enough, is to reset the tax. The Sox need to do that as soon as possible. All the Mookie back to Boston is a pipe dream already, it becomes impossible without a tax reset this fall.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Who, again, did Dombrowski regret trading for all his moves? Shaw, Moncada and...? Kopech someday maybe. Espinosa certainly turned into nothing when we all denied him being moved. Beyond that?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Who, again, did Dombrowski regret trading for all his moves? Shaw, Moncada and...? Kopech someday maybe. Espinosa certainly turned into nothing when we all denied him being moved. Beyond that?
Yeah, Dombrowski may deserve some criticism for leaving the cupboard a bit bare upon his departure (but even that is tenuous), but it's not as though he whiffed on many, if any, deals that emptied said cupboard. Moncada is easily the best of the departed bunch, but he played/plays a position they have filled and the trade brought back Sale. The team isn't significantly better off if he's still around.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Yeah, Dombrowski may deserve some criticism for leaving the cupboard a bit bare upon his departure (but even that is tenuous), but it's not as though he whiffed on many, if any, deals that emptied said cupboard. Moncada is easily the best of the departed bunch, but he played/plays a position they have filled and the trade brought back Sale. The team isn't significantly better off if he's still around.
Yeah, I don't even think he deserves criticism; if the cupboard is full but none of the food has much shelf life left, you get rid of it before it spoils. He kept all the good bits and got rid of the excess middle. For what he acquired and the result, that is far worth Moncada, Shaw and maybe Kopech. The deals didn't all pan out, but they also aren't missing anything they gave up.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, Dombrowski pulled off the best season in franchise history, from pure performance/results I don't think it is even close. 2018 BOS was a top 3 team in my 40+ years of watching MLB (probably 3rd behind 1998 NY and 1986 NYM), 108 wins and then 11-3 combined over the three power franchises, ridiculous. I don't think you can criticize him for any of the specific trades with that as a result, that is why you hired him and 2018 should be enough to keep any realistic fan base happy for a while.

But where you do have to kill Dombrowski is what I have been talking about here for years, the lack of enough/quality restocking underneath for a multi-year period, and even worse at a time when TB and NY are building insanely deep systems. Fangraphs' THE BOARD includes all prospects they have ranked 35+ or higher so IMO is the best way to gauge system depth, NY currently has 57, TB has 60, BOS just has 40 and that is up since Bloom took over. DD left them in a really hard hole to dig out of, TOR also seems to be building a very high-ceiling core.

 

The Gray Eagle

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Part of the farm system decline in that era was the international signing penalties. The violations occurred under Cherington, before Dombrowski even got here, but the price was paid during Dombrowski's tenure.

Blowing through the luxury tax every year hurt the system as well, but that seemed to be part of the ownership plan. Tampa never has luxury tax penalties, and NY got under the line to reset and avoid penalties right when Boston was building the 2018 team, so they had an advantage there too.
 

nvalvo

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Collin McHugh has opted out of the season. It's not clear when he would have been ready, anyway, and it sounds like he figured if he wasn't going to be pitching, he might as well rehab at home.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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But where you do have to kill Dombrowski is what I have been talking about here for years, the lack of enough/quality restocking underneath for a multi-year period, and even worse at a time when TB and NY are building insanely deep systems. Fangraphs' THE BOARD includes all prospects they have ranked 35+ or higher so IMO is the best way to gauge system depth, NY currently has 57, TB has 60, BOS just has 40 and that is up since Bloom took over. DD left them in a really hard hole to dig out of, TOR also seems to be building a very high-ceiling core.

The GM might get the credit and blame for the drafts, but like all organizations, the brunt of it truly falls on the scouting and the player ops department; draft and development, etc. The Sox have had some serious brain drain in that department.
 

BaseballJones

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McHugh out so the rotation is weak and thin and it s led by a guy who has a hard time staying healthy. Nice.

So in this bizarre covid season, yeah yeah we’d all like a miracle but what’s the threshold for a “successful” season?

I’d say just getting enough of the season in to reset the luxury tax would be fantastic. Anything else is gravy.
 

Sin Duda

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Can someone give us a detailed rundown of how the starting pitching will play out now that Collin "Take the money and run, Hoo-hoo-McHugh" is not in the picture? I'd love for the Sox to do their best in July and August then, if they're 5+ games out come August 31, trade off some pieces and give the kids a chance.

Thank you.

Signed,

Dodging COVID in Austin
 

sean1562

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Honestly, at this point, just go full on opener with a lot of the young guys and see which ones stick in that role, if any. I am excited to watch baseball again but I am viewing this season as more of an exhibition type thing that has no real consequences. Does anyone know anything about Jonathan Arauz? Seems like this whole ordeal will let every team just hang onto their Rule 5 picks.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Can someone give us a detailed rundown of how the starting pitching will play out now that Collin "Take the money and run, Hoo-hoo-McHugh" is not in the picture? I'd love for the Sox to do their best in July and August then, if they're 5+ games out come August 31, trade off some pieces and give the kids a chance.

Thank you.

Signed,

Dodging COVID in Austin
E-Rod, Eovaldi, Perez, Weber, opener/bullpen game. Maybe Brian Johnson might mix in if E-Rod isn't up to speed yet.

McHugh really wasn't in the picture at all. He hasn't been on a mound during camp as he's still having problems with his arm. His opting out really shouldn't impact anything at all.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Collin McHugh has opted out of the season. It's not clear when he would have been ready, anyway, and it sounds like he figured if he wasn't going to be pitching, he might as well rehab at home.
So now that his Red Sox career is over, where does Collin McHugh rank in team history? Clearly below Rollie Fingers and Kevin Appier. Maybe somewhere around Hee Seop Choi, Guillermo Mota, Jhonny Peralta, Charles Johnson or Carlos Delgado.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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So now that his Red Sox career is over, where does Collin McHugh rank in team history? Clearly below Rollie Fingers and Kevin Appier. Maybe somewhere around Hee Seop Choi, Guillermo Mota, Jhonny Peralta, Charles Johnson or Carlos Delgado.
Well, baseball-reference.com shows Robinson Checo's career Bosox WAR as 0.1, so I'd say right below him!