Let's Talk About the Manager

[Why Not Grebeck?]

With the Red Sox coming off a disappointing season and Joe Maddon opting out of his contract with the Rays, I expected to see some discussion somewhere about the possibility of Maddon coming to Boston. Instead, it's been total silence. It appears as though the fans still have lots of faith in John Farrell.
 
But should we? Obviously the World Series championship buys a lot of good will, but even during the championship run I didn't have the faith in Farrell that I did in Francona during his tenure at the helm. And last year in particular I feel as though there were lots of baffling management decisions - poor bullpen usage, bizarre line-up construction, plays seemingly designed to create outs on the basepaths, and a general sense of underachieving. Obviously there's no way of knowing how much of that was on Farrell, but even still, it feels as though there's a disconnect here. Should we give Farrell a mulligan on 2014, or should Boston be (quietly) looking to move on?  

 

[jimbobim]

With the Red Sox coming off a disappointing season and Joe Maddon opting out of his contract with the Rays, I expected to see some discussion somewhere about the possibility of Maddon coming to Boston. Instead, it's been total silence. It appears as though the fans still have lots of faith in John Farrell.
 
But should we? Obviously the World Series championship buys a lot of good will, but even during the championship run I didn't have the faith in Farrell that I did in Francona during his tenure at the helm. And last year in particular I feel as though there were lots of baffling management decisions - poor bullpen usage, bizarre line-up construction, plays seemingly designed to create outs on the basepaths, and a general sense of underachieving. Obviously there's no way of knowing how much of that was on Farrell, but even still, it feels as though there's a disconnect here. Should we give Farrell a mulligan on 2014, or should Boston be (quietly) looking to move on?  

 
I can't imagine Cherington offloading Farrell. Madden is good but you would have to pay him top dollar on top of still paying Farrell. I more expect Detroit or STL to start quietly courting. Both teams relatively loaded and on the cusp. Farrell baffles me sometimes but as you mentioned that ring buys him a ton of good will which Ausmus and Matheny both lack. 

 

[DJnVa]

I suspect the reason you haven't heard about it is that Maddon seems like a lock for the Dodgers, either now or after a season off.

 

[tims4wins]

But Maddon is ringless too - why would the Cards or Tigers want to discard their young managers for an older one who has arguably won less than them?

 

[Why Not Grebeck?]

Heyman says Dodgers not in play - http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/24765962/joe-maddon-suddenly-becomes-one-of-top-free-agents-in-game
 
At first I thought Maddon left to follow Friedman to LA, but now it's looking like it's less about getting to the Dodgers and more about leaving Tampa Bay. Must be some serious stuff going on behind the scenes there.

 

[pokey_reese]

I have heard people speculating on the Cubs for him, which would also make sense.  A lot of young talent coming up, an experimental, numbers-oriented FO to work with, could be Rays part II.
 
That said, I think a lot of the advantage to be gained from Maddon has probably been had already, as evidenced from the increasing willingness of managers to let FO people guide them on the use of shifts, etc..

 

[koufax37]

We won't do anything.  Farrell is definitely an inferior manager on a number of levels, but he is still smart, well liked, and has a ring in 50% of his managerial seasons.
 
What is exceptionally important is that we just went from having two of four opposing managers in the division much better than ours to only one.  And combined with the Friedman move I think we are probably entering a cycle where the Rays will stop being regular overachievers and regress towards having their on field results come closer to their payroll.
 
I have long viewed Maddon as the best manager in baseball, and I think the Rays and the team fortunate enough to sign him will demonstrate that point over the next couple seasons. I'm not quite sure what his WAR would be in real terms, but in joking hyperbole I do believe his Wins Above Ned Yost is somewhere in the 13.5 range.

 

[koufax37]

That said, I think a lot of the advantage to be gained from Maddon has probably been had already

 
I understand your point, as happened with Billy Beane when everybody else started valuing OBP, but I don't think he is a one trick pony, and I think he will continue through different cycles of intelligent innovation, one of which we will see over the next few seasons being COUNTERING the shifts and other widely recently adopted tactics.  There might not be as much low hanging fruit left, but I still think there is plenty Maddon can reach.

 

[JimD]

Farrell wasn't Playoff Tito last October, but I thought he did a pretty decent job overall.  He wasn't afraid to put X in for Middlebrooks, pitch Lackey in relief or yank Salty and ride Ross the rest of the way.  I'm not about to condemn him for failing to win in 2014 with a flawed roster.

 

[Bosoxen]

We won't do anything.  Farrell is definitely an inferior manager on a number of levels, but he is still smart, well liked, and has a ring in 50% of his managerial seasons.

 
In Boston, maybe. Did you forget he also managed in Toronto?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You really can't blame Farrell for this season. This was more of a front office failure. That being said I'm impressed. It only took a poster 4 hours to come up with sacking the current manager for a shiny new toy that has never won. I like Joe Maddon as much as the next guy, but I doubt the front office blames Farrell let alone would sack him 12 months after winning the World Series.

The idea of replacing Farrell with Maddon should be buried deep in a basement with great ideas such as trading Pedroia.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

 
In Boston, maybe. Did you forget he also managed in Toronto?

 
OK, 25 percent.

 

[DJnVa]

Heyman says Dodgers not in play - http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/24765962/joe-maddon-suddenly-becomes-one-of-top-free-agents-in-game
 
At first I thought Maddon left to follow Friedman to LA, but now it's looking like it's less about getting to the Dodgers and more about leaving Tampa Bay. Must be some serious stuff going on behind the scenes there.

 

Yeah, that's why I think he'll sit a year. Or until Mattingly is canned.

 

[derekson]

I think the stuff about the Dodgers "not being in play" is a bunch of bullshit. He has a working relationship with Friedman already, he was a longtime Angels employee who lives in Long Beach during the offseason, and the Dodgers are coming off of another disappointing playoff run that was marked by Mattingly publicly feuding with and benching the team's best player. The Dodgers didn't boost their payroll to $250M expecting first round exits. Division titles aren't going to be enough to save Mattingly's job given the high level of investment and expectations.

 

[Why Not Grebeck?]

You really can't blame Farrell for this season. This was more of a front office failure. That being said I'm impressed. It only took a poster 4 hours to come up with sacking the current manager for a shiny new toy that has never won. I like Joe Maddon as much as the next guy, but I doubt the front office blames Farrell let alone would sack him 12 months after winning the World Series.

The idea of replacing Farrell with Maddon should be buried deep in a basement with great ideas such as trading Pedroia.

 
To be fair, I've been unimpressed with Farrell and impressed with Maddon for far longer than four hours. Of course, if I had my way Terry Francona would still be managing here on a lifetime contract.

 

[gryoung]

I've always viewed Joe Maddon as the guy who wants everyone to know he's the smartest guy in the room. I don't want him here. 
 
If not Farrell, then go with one of the younger candidates. Farrell needs to really have a poor 2015 before there's any replacement talk.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I think the stuff about the Dodgers "not being in play" is a bunch of bullshit. He has a working relationship with Friedman already, he was a longtime Angels employee who lives in Long Beach during the offseason, and the Dodgers are coming off of another disappointing playoff run that was marked by Mattingly publicly feuding with and benching the team's best player. The Dodgers didn't boost their payroll to $250M expecting first round exits. Division titles aren't going to be enough to save Mattingly's job given the high level of investment and expectations.

I'm skeptical of this at well. Friedman also gave Mattingly the dreaded "vote of confidence" last week. It doesn't make sense on any level for Friedman to prefer Mattingly over Maddon and he went out of his way last week possibly as a prelude to this announcement by Maddon.

 

[lexrageorge]

I'm not convinced that Maddon's in game decision are as far superior to those of Francona or Farrell as some would have you believe.  He's had his share of wonky, mid-season lineups and interesting hunch-based bullpen decisions as well.  
 
Farrell benefited mightily in 2013 from both a retooled roster and an unconscious playoff performance from Senor Ortiz.  The roster in 2014 hurt him badly as well, as did the flawed rosters in Toronto.  I'd be surprised if Maddon could have won two more games in 2014 than Farrell did given the issues the team had overall. 

 

[mauf]

I think the stuff about the Dodgers "not being in play" is a bunch of bullshit. He has a working relationship with Friedman already, he was a longtime Angels employee who lives in Long Beach during the offseason, and the Dodgers are coming off of another disappointing playoff run that was marked by Mattingly publicly feuding with and benching the team's best player. The Dodgers didn't boost their payroll to $250M expecting first round exits. Division titles aren't going to be enough to save Mattingly's job given the high level of investment and expectations.

Do you think Friedman will make decisions based on stupid reasoning like "division titles aren't enough" now that he runs a club that has money to throw around? Or do you think he left his comfortable perch in Tampa without ensuring he'd have full control over baseball operations in LA?

Mattingly might be on his way out, but if he is, it's because that happens to a lot of managers who find themselves working for a GM who isn't the guy who hired them -- not because Friedman is going to ditch what got him here and start making emotion-driven decisions.

 

[lxt]

You really can't blame Farrell for this season. This was more of a front office failure. That being said I'm impressed. It only took a poster 4 hours to come up with sacking the current manager for a shiny new toy that has never won. I like Joe Maddon as much as the next guy, but I doubt the front office blames Farrell let alone would sack him 12 months after winning the World Series.

The idea of replacing Farrell with Maddon should be buried deep in a basement with great ideas such as trading Pedroia.

Simply well said. I'd agree with the contract for Terry.
 
I think Maddon will be in either LA, that would be the Dodgers, or Chicago with the Cubs.

 

[ALiveH]

this may be over-simplistic but when my team wins the championship I am pretty much willing to give every manager & front-office person involved at least a one-year mulligan.
 
also Farrel is a good manager, especially the way he gets the best out of pitchers.
 
And, Maddon in this media market would be an absolute disaster.  Not Bobby Valentine level bad, but still really bad.

 

[benhogan]

Prediction: Madden ends up a VP/Consultant in baseball Ops for the Dodgers.  He replaces Mattingly if the team underperforms by All Star break.

 

[chrisfont9]

Does anyone here manage a business? If so, can you imagine what the impact of sacking a well-liked and well-performing employee in favor of an outsider from a rival company would be? No matter how well liked or respected Maddon is, this sort of move would be incredibly disruptive.

 

[findguapo]

Maddon is an attention whore. In my opinion, he has been a poor playoff and big game manager because he tries to do too many stupid quirky things to become the center of attention. Last year, in the elimination game in the playoffs against the Red Sox, I think he rotated 47 pitchers in and out of the game. He has been in the playoffs 4 times, 3 losses in the 1st round, 1 in the WS. Announcing an opt out during the world series is an A-Rodesque move. I don't want him anywhere near the Red Sox. 

 

[moondog80]

Announcing an opt out during the world series is an A-Rodesque move. I don't want him anywhere near the Red Sox. 

That's not fair, maybe his contract only gave a small window for him to exercise his escape clause. And even if that's not the case, there's only so many manager jobs available, wait and maybe he gets shut out.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Prediction: Madden ends up a VP/Consultant in baseball Ops for the Dodgers.  He replaces Mattingly if the team underperforms by All Star break.

Marking time for a year in the broadcast booth is another time-honored practice.

 

[VORP Speed]

That's not fair, maybe his contract only gave a small window for him to exercise his escape clause. And even if that's not the case, there's only so many manager jobs available, wait and maybe he gets shut out.

He had a 2 week window to opt out after Friedman left (would have also been triggered by departure of Silverman or Sternberg). Friedman left on the 14th. Had to make decision now.

 

[YTF]

I doubt Maddon replacing Farrell gets little if any consideration. As exciting as 2013 was, I think most of us would agree it was a stretch to think that lightening would strike again in 2014. In the off season we saw the following position player turnovers, JBJ replacing Ellsbury, AJP took over for Saltalamacchia, Drew replaced by Herarra and the front office had faith that Nava and Carp would duplicate their career years. Seems like Ben and ownership were OK to basically stand pat or even enter 2014 with a lesser team. As it turns out, Victorino got hurt, Bradley was "lost" and Gomes was Gomes which is fine when the rest of the team is clicking. Pedroia struggled and played hurt as did Napoli, Mike Carp realized that he's Mike Carp, Bogaerts was a mess for a good part of the season and WMB sucked. Then you pretty much have to write off the last 1/3 of the season given that as much of a mess as they were in the day to day lineup, the Sox traded Lester, Lackey and Miller. He may not be the cerebral giant that Maddon projects himself to be, but it's hard to pin last season Farrell. He gets a pass.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

The machinery that leads to criticism of Farrell is simply a function of obsessed Red Sox fans watching every game.
 
I'll take the criticism seriously when all games are watched daily - and equal scrutiny is given to every other manager in baseball by the critics.
 
Obviously that's impossible, but short of that, micro-criticism of Farrell is taken with my perspective that he's not being fairly compared to every other "genius" out there by Red Sox fans.

 

[MuzzyField]

I'm not intersted in replacing Farrell with the wine connoisseur, but I'm not sure Farrell wasn't more "along for the ride" in 2013 compared to the success during Tito's tenure.  Tito was expected to win and did.  I don't think winning the WS was the expectation in 2013.
My disappointment in Farrell in 2013 wasn't the W-L record, the roster was flawed due to health and too much not ready for MLB youth.
It was the apparent lack of development of the young players at the MLB level that I hope proves to be disproved next spring.  I'm not sure enough questions about the AAA+ talent knocking on the MLB door were answered in 2013, particularly the pitchers, Farrell's supposed strength.  Of course, this could also be a factor of the front office over-hyping it's developmental machine.  FYI, the object of the game is to trade the over-hyped prospects. 
2015 is going to be fun to watch to see what's real and what's BS and the potential BS includes the manager and GM.
The Brock Holt's of the world make for great stories, but the players with minor league success need to be brought up in the best environment to translate their past successes to the MLB level.   I'm not sure that environment was present during 2013.

 

[alwyn96]

The machinery that leads to criticism of Farrell is simply a function of obsessed Red Sox fans watching every game.
 
I'll take the criticism seriously when all games are watched daily - and equal scrutiny is given to every other manager in baseball by the critics.
 
Obviously that's impossible, but short of that, micro-criticism of Farrell is taken with my perspective that he's not being fairly compared to every other "genius" out there by Red Sox fans.

 
Yeah, after watching some of the truly terrible managing in this year's playoffs, I'm pretty grateful to have Farrell in there. I'm not sure people realize how bad most other team's managers really are. The grass is always greener, etc. 

 

[Toe Nash]

Probably worth noting that the team won 71 games, traded its two best pitchers, both of whom were well-liked by their teammates, added some rookies, and we didn't see any anonymous stories in the press about how Farrell was losing the clubhouse. There was a little bit from Bogaerts and Pierzynski but I don't recall any other negativity about people not getting along or guys giving up. With our local scribes as they are I see this as a big item in JF's favor. CHB still whined about the team being bad, but he didn't have much clubhouse drama to work with.

 

[URI]

Probably worth noting that the team won 71 games, traded its two best pitchers, both of whom were well-liked by their teammates, added some rookies, and we didn't see any anonymous stories in the press about how Farrell was losing the clubhouse. There was a little bit from Bogaerts and Pierzynski but I don't recall any other negativity about people not getting along or guys giving up. With our local scribes as they are I see this as a big item in JF's favor. CHB still whined about the team being bad, but he didn't have much clubhouse drama to work with.

Let's digest this for a little bit, because there is a good amount here.

Probably worth noting that the team won 71 games, traded its two best pitchers

The Red Sox blew up 80% of their starting rotation. Dubront was no huge loss, but Peavy, Lackey, and Lester all had definitive tanglible or intangible value to the team.

added some rookies

Two of them played center field, and shortstop, two of the more important positions on the field, and the most important in their particular level (CF in the outfield, Shortstop in the infield). They didn't really hit, but it's not like the Red Sox had a fully dedicated hitting coach for most of the season, either.

we didn't see any anonymous stories in the press about how Farrell was losing the clubhouse. There was a little bit from Bogaerts and Pierzynski

Bogaerts is a young player who was moved and expressed his frustration with that, while he was in the middle of an offensive and defensive slump. On a good team, that's showing "competitive fire". On a bad one, it's "whining".

AJ Pierzynski is, and always has been, an asshole.

The point is that I think a lot of perspective is needed for the post-Francona Red Sox. Valentine was a disaster because he lost the clubhouse about 30 seconds after he stepped in it.

John Farrell won a world series, and, despite having a team that effectively performed as well as Valentine's, he kept the clubhouse...the team played hard until the end of the season.

I feel like managers don't really do much to win games, but do a lot to lose them. Farrell took something objectively in his control...the clubhouse...and kept it even keel. He deserves a small amount of credit for that despite how terrible the season was, and shouldn't have to fret about his job for 2 more seasons at minimum.

 

[chrisfont9]

I'm not intersted in replacing Farrell with the wine connoisseur, but I'm not sure Farrell wasn't more "along for the ride" in 2013 compared to the success during Tito's tenure.  Tito was expected to win and did.  I don't think winning the WS was the expectation in 2013.
My disappointment in Farrell in 2013 wasn't the W-L record, the roster was flawed due to health and too much not ready for MLB youth.
It was the apparent lack of development of the young players at the MLB level that I hope proves to be disproved next spring.  I'm not sure enough questions about the AAA+ talent knocking on the MLB door were answered in 2013, particularly the pitchers, Farrell's supposed strength.  Of course, this could also be a factor of the front office over-hyping it's developmental machine.  FYI, the object of the game is to trade the over-hyped prospects. 
2015 is going to be fun to watch to see what's real and what's BS and the potential BS includes the manager and GM.
The Brock Holt's of the world make for great stories, but the players with minor league success need to be brought up in the best environment to translate their past successes to the MLB level.   I'm not sure that environment was present during 2013.

Every manager has his strengths, no? Farrell's is, unquestionably, working with pitchers, and otherwise running a Tito-style clubhouse. He's part of why Miller and Lester have said they would consider coming back, Miller emphatically (not that either will, but still). So if that's his genius, it's valuable, and maybe they need a bench coach or other assistant who's particularly astute at helping with the kids.

 

[mauf]

My disappointment in Farrell in 2013 wasn't the W-L record, the roster was flawed due to health and too much not ready for MLB youth.
It was the apparent lack of development of the young players at the MLB level that I hope proves to be disproved next spring.  I'm not sure enough questions about the AAA+ talent knocking on the MLB door were answered in 2013, particularly the pitchers, Farrell's supposed strength.  Of course, this could also be a factor of the front office over-hyping it's developmental machine.  FYI, the object of the game is to trade the over-hyped prospects. 
2015 is going to be fun to watch to see what's real and what's BS and the potential BS includes the manager and GM.

The Sox have a couple pitchers on the farm who could be special, but the guys who are ready now project to be 3rd/4th starters in a few years. Obviously, we all hope that one of them beats those expectations, but I don't think it's a knock on Farrell if that never happens. It certainly isn't his fault that it didn't happen this year.

 

[MuzzyField]

If anything, the entire organization has proven to be adaptable. In a few days, the front office begins the reboot for 2015, those decisions will also tell us what ownership has in mind. Come spring training it will be time for Farrell and his staff to show us what they've learned and the players aren't immune, they could and need to collectively play better.

 

[lxt]

End of Maddon discussion - He's with the Cubs
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/10/cubs-to-hire-joe-maddon-as-manager.html