Let's Talk about the manager -- The John Farrell Thread

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Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Paul M said:
At what point do they just forget about using Breslow? He's been a complete mess out there, and tonight again can't throw a strike. Have to give kudos for going to Doubront and letting him get into the 7th, but Breslow's pretty much a gas can. Of course, who do you use in that situation?
 
Why pull Dubront at all? He was fine. Gave up the hit, but he was still in good shape. Seemed odd to pull him at that point for another left-hander.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Ortiz out of the game, with the double switch coming - which Farrell move do I fear worse?  Lackey pitching the eighth or an attempted six out save for Koji?
 

rembrat

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For a board that almost unanimously hates pitching roles there is a lot of uproar in the thread about using Lackey in the 8th instead of Taz or Koji. 
 

Bergs

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I don't want to get too game-thready, but this Lackey move seems fucking idiotic to me.
 

JMDurron

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If the whole point is to just gain 1 out or 2 before Uehara takes over to get the save, while getting the double switch for Napoli, I don't understand using Lackey, who has never been a reliever, instead of literally anybody else in the bullpen.  Dempster on a short leash is as reasonable an option as Lackey in this scenario.  I don't care about trust, I care about using pitchers in roles that they have at least some familiarity with. 
 

soxfan121

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Well, it's going to be Lackey in the 8th.
 
This is....unusual.
 
No, it's batshit insane. Lackey was up in the 6th, while Doubront was rolling. He hasn't been called upon in relief for nearly a decade. He has to pitch again in this series - and well - or they aren't winning the series. And there were better options. 
 
Even though it looks as if it's going to work, it's a batshit insane move. 
 

JMDurron

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I think this is exactly the kind of over-thinking that I was worried about from Farrell coming into tonight.  Now the defense is failing again. 
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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soxfan121 said:
 
No, it's batshit insane. Lackey was up in the 6th, while Doubront was rolling. He hasn't been called upon in relief for nearly a decade. He has to pitch again in this series - and well - or they aren't winning the series. And there were better options. 
 
Even though it looks as if it's going to work, it's a batshit insane move. 
 
Today was his day to throw as he's starting Wed night, so your point about pitching later this series is not a negative against Farrell IMO.
 
The rest of this makes more sense to me. Dempster isn't as good as Lackey, but he's got substantial experience as a reliever.
 

rembrat

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The move is perfectly reasonable when you consider his options in the bullpen. Breslow turning into a pumpkin has significantly shorten the bullpen.
 

soxhop411

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I thought it was a great use of resources.  Best arm available, no pre-determined role.
Plus JF said before the game that Lackey might pitch today, so it was not a spur of the moment decision
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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It's too early to judge the outcome of this decision.  If Lackey shits the bed in game six, what do we say about it then?
 

ScubaSteveAvery

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soxhop411 said:
Plus JF said before the game that Lackey might pitch today, so it was not a spur of the moment decision
 
It was most likely his normal bullpen session day today anyways.  Higher leverage than a bullpen session, but you have to utilize your resources in these situations. 
 
Philip Jeff Frye said:
It's too early to judge the outcome of this decision.  If Lackey shits the bed in game six, what do we say about it then?
 
Its worth it because you have to get to game 6 :) 
 

TheYellowDart5

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
Today was his day to throw as he's starting Wed night, so your point about pitching later this series is not a negative against Farrell IMO.
 
The rest of this makes more sense to me. Dempster isn't as good as Lackey, but he's got substantial experience as a reliever.
 
Dempster's barely pitched in the playoffs and looked eminently hittable in Game 1. Your other options were Morales, Uehara for six outs, or Tazawa for as many outs as you dare. Given that you used Tazawa for several high-leverage, high-stress outs last night, not to mention an insanely high-leverage out in the seventh, and you have Game 5 looming tomorrow, I can understand Farrell opting to give him a breather in the hopes that he'd be ready for a full inning tomorrow. So you're down to Morales or Uehara against Adams, Molina and Jay.
 
I can see going to Morales, with the idea that he can get Adams and Jay and hope for the best against Molina. But he's been so far from reliable in the postseason, I can completely understand Farrell avoiding him there. So now you're down to Uehara for six outs, which is at least 20 or so pitches, with Game 5 tomorrow.
 
It was a weird decision given that Lackey's relief experience is slim and none, but Rembrat's right; with Breslow going into the tank, the reliable arms in the bullpen are Uehara, Tazawa and Doubront, and that's it.
 
Maybe a question for another thread, but if this is the max of what can be expected from Buchholz/the Sox don't think Buchholz can pitch any more this season, should the Sox remove him from the roster and bring in Thornton or Britton? Neither of those guys is a difference maker, but they can hopefully at least get some outs in the middle innings if needed and maybe replace Breslow as a late LHP option.
 

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I guess if you are going to use Lackey you really want to give him a clean inning and it let them double switch in Napoli. Still might have just rolled with Tazawa unless he's wearing down some.

Didn't really get holding the runner on, but I'll take it!

Ross for Salty was good as was his handling of Buchholz. I'd go back to Salty for game six though.
 

Stitch01

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TheYellowDart5 said:
Dempster's barely pitched in the playoffs and looked eminently hittable in Game 1. Your other options were Morales, Uehara for six outs, or Tazawa for as many outs as you dare. Given that you used Tazawa for several high-leverage, high-stress outs last night, not to mention an insanely high-leverage out in the seventh, and you have Game 5 looming tomorrow, I can understand Farrell opting to give him a breather in the hopes that he'd be ready for a full inning tomorrow. So you're down to Morales or Uehara against Adams, Molina and Jay.
 
I can see going to Morales, with the idea that he can get Adams and Jay and hope for the best against Molina. But he's been so far from reliable in the postseason, I can completely understand Farrell avoiding him there. So now you're down to Uehara for six outs, which is at least 20 or so pitches, with Game 5 tomorrow.
 
It was a weird decision given that Lackey's relief experience is slim and none, but Rembrat's right; with Breslow going into the tank, the reliable arms in the bullpen are Uehara, Tazawa and Doubront, and that's it.
 
Maybe a question for another thread, but if this is the max of what can be expected from Buchholz/the Sox don't think Buchholz can pitch any more this season, should the Sox remove him from the roster and bring in Thornton or Britton? Neither of those guys is a difference maker, but they can hopefully at least get some outs in the middle innings if needed and maybe replace Breslow as a late LHP option.
I brought up the latter option at some poin, but imagine the Cards would scream bloody murder given how the series is playing out. Buchholz made his start and got through four innings
 

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Philip Jeff Frye said:
It's too early to judge the outcome of this decision.  If Lackey shits the bed in game six, what do we say about it then?
 
 
Since it was his day to throw a side anyway, I'm not sure there is any negative effect in using him in terms of game 6. Unless it can be shown that his 17 high leverage pitches in the 8th tonight substantially weakens him versus regular side sessions. I don't think it can.
 

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I can understand the "give him one base-runner" mentality with a starter deep in the game and/or at a high pitch count, but I didn't understand it tonight with Doubront. Doubront was dealing and one base-hit doesn't change that. Plus, with the lefty Carpenter coming up and Doubront quite skilled at throwing with his left hand, there was no platoon advantage to be had with Breslow. Hell, Breslow has a reverse split, not to mention pitching somewhat less than good lately. Fortunately Tazawa cleaned up the mess in what was probably the highest leverage spot of the game.
 

dhellers

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
Today was his day to throw as he's starting Wed night, so your point about pitching later this series is not a negative against Farrell IMO.
 
The rest of this makes more sense to me. Dempster isn't as good as Lackey, but he's got substantial experience as a reliever.
Shades of '04 with Tito using every bit of his pitching staff (where are you now, Curtis Leskanic)
 

TheYellowDart5

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Rudy Pemberton said:
It's still not clear if you are allowed to remove injured players from the WS roster, is it? Has it ever been done? I can't imagine you'd be allowed to replace your game 4 starter or else every team would do it.
 
For what it's worth, I can't find any rule that says you can't remove and replace an injured player on a World Series roster. Of course, that has to be with the approval of the commissioner, so Buchholz would have to be actually hurt. (Note: I'm not saying the Red Sox should fake an injury for Buchholz to get him off the roster. That obviously wouldn't work.)
 
As to whether it's ever been done, I can't remember off the top of my head. If it weren't 2:40 AM, I'd do a search for it. But I'll leave that to other, more nocturnal minds.
 

Sprowl

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Two things to like about Farrell's leadership in response to the obstruction loss: accepting up front that the umpires called the rule as it is written, which helps the team turn the page. Also, he volunteered for blame for failing to make a double-switch with Workman, which helps Middlebrooks and Saltalamacchia turn the page. There are a few business-school case studies here.
 

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Sprowl said:
Two things to like about Farrell's leadership in response to the obstruction loss: accepting up front that the umpires called the rule as it is written, which helps the team turn the page. Also, he volunteered for blame for failing to make a double-switch with Workman, which helps Middlebrooks and Saltalamacchia turn the page. There are a few business-school case studies here.
M.B.A.
Masters in Baseball Administration?
 

lexrageorge

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Rudy Pemberton said:
It's still not clear if you are allowed to remove injured players from the WS roster, is it? Has it ever been done? I can't imagine you'd be allowed to replace your game 4 starter or else every team would do it.
It is clear; it's just that you need to the approval of the commissioner to do so.  
 
However, the chances of getting that approval for your Game 4 starter to be replaced range from remote to none.  It would be one thing if Buchholz wasn't able to make his start at all; however, I doubt the team would have much success with the argument that Buchholz couldn't get his fastball past 88 mph.  Selig would rightfully say "there's no crying in baseball".
 
There's language in the rule that allows the Commissioner's office the right to conduct its own investigation into any injured player replacement request; the Commissioner also has the right to deny the request if there's not enough time for his office to conduct the investigation. 
 

joe dokes

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Now, he's stuck with defensive incompetence in the OF (Gomes in LF, Nava in RF in a ballpark with a large OF), a pitcher with no stuff, and a potentially torched bullpen after Peavy's lack of innings in Game 3 and what seems likely to happen with Buchholz tonight.  I expect to see more over-thinking and unforced errors with the mix of deck chairs tonight.  The good news is that Lester should get the series back to Fenway anyway. 
 
But he threw last night, so he's not going to go again except in an emergency. He's not a rubber-armed reliever, he's a converted starter. Once you burn Doubie you may as well get 3-4 innings from him. Dempster is the first line of defense tonight.
 
I copy these not to pick on anyone, because they're reasonable observations, but again to remind everyone -- including me -- that we really don't know shit.
 
Relax and enjoy the ride. Or as Ortiz apparently said to his teammates in the huddle, "Lighten Up!"
 
 
 
 

shepard50

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Stitch01 said:
I guess if you are going to use Lackey you really want to give him a clean inning and it let them double switch in Napoli. Still might have just rolled with Tazawa unless he's wearing down some.

Didn't really get holding the runner on, but I'll take it!

Ross for Salty was good as was his handling of Buchholz. I'd go back to Salty for game six though.
 
The hold wasn't a Manager's decision. Farrell said in his PC that he and Lovullo and Butterfield were huddling in the dugout at the time, talking about the shift, and Koji and Nap pulled the pickoff on their own. He was "as surprised as anyone".
 

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shepard50 said:
 
The hold wasn't a Manager's decision. Farrell said in his PC that he and Lovullo and Butterfield were huddling in the dugout at the time, talking about the shift, and Koji and Nap pulled the pickoff on their own. He was "as surprised as anyone".
 
Obfuscation? Holding Wong on first was a completely mystifying move with two outs. His run at the time meant nothing so you have to play back and guard the line - "no doubles" in other words. Farrell is trying to protect trade secrets here.
 

joe dokes

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shepard50 said:
 
The hold wasn't a Manager's decision. Farrell said in his PC that he and Lovullo and Butterfield were huddling in the dugout at the time, talking about the shift, and Koji and Nap pulled the pickoff on their own. He was "as surprised as anyone".
 
I think the decision to hold has to be from the bench. The pickoff attempt was not, as he said.
 
 
I wasn't too thrilled with holding him on. Shades of Bobby Thomson.
 

shepard50

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Interesting. He said they were looking out for a bunt towards first, in which case you would expect Napoli to hold and then shift in. 
 

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It's possible they were daring Beltran to bunt by playing it kind of in between. Between the chances of a bunt being successful, and the fact that it limits some damage, I would happily have taken bunt attempts from Beltran.
 

ivanvamp

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TFisNEXT said:
 
 
Since it was his day to throw a side anyway, I'm not sure there is any negative effect in using him in terms of game 6. Unless it can be shown that his 17 high leverage pitches in the 8th tonight substantially weakens him versus regular side sessions. I don't think it can.
 
Lackey may not pitch well in game 6 - who knows?  But I am not worried about some effect from last night on game 6.  I think he'll be fine from a physical standpoint.
 
I was very much against bringing him in last night, not because of any concern over game 6, but because I thought that Taz was doing great and I was worried about Lackey's effectiveness coming out of the pen.
 
Well, they got through it with the win, and now Tazawa is available for tonight, so it all worked out.
 

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shepard50 said:
Interesting. He said they were looking out for a bunt towards first, in which case you would expect Napoli to hold and then shift in. 
 
Now that IS interesting. Why would Carlos Beltran - the most clutch, feared, greatest hitter in post season history"  (according to the press anyways) be bunting ?
 
The obvious answer is the rib injury ..
 

joe dokes

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smastroyin said:
It's possible they were daring Beltran to bunt by playing it kind of in between. Between the chances of a bunt being successful, and the fact that it limits some damage, I would happily have taken bunt attempts from Beltran.
 
Me too, but you just know that that would somehow result in some sort of throw to third base.
 

JimD

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soxhop411 said:
Plus JF said before the game that Lackey might pitch today, so it was not a spur of the moment decision
 
Lackey said postgame that he lobbied Farrell to pitch an inning last night. 
 

Toe Nash

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Sprowl said:
Two things to like about Farrell's leadership in response to the obstruction loss: accepting up front that the umpires called the rule as it is written, which helps the team turn the page. Also, he volunteered for blame for failing to make a double-switch with Workman, which helps Middlebrooks and Saltalamacchia turn the page. There are a few business-school case studies here.
What else was he to do? Blame Nava? It would be far superior if he didn't make such a rookie mistake in the first place, since we're told he's so prepared and considers things so deeply. 
 
That said, I had zero problem with using Lackey. He seems like he still has all his stuff at this point in the year and he was going to throw anyway. And color me pleasantly surprised Doubront pitched and pitched so well. I'd hope the plan for a potential game 7 includes an inning or two of Lester to help get from Peavy to Tazawa / Uehara.
 

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shepard50 said:
Interesting. He said they were looking out for a bunt towards first, in which case you would expect Napoli to hold and then shift in. 
 
If Beltran is bunting, it is towards third, with the shift on
 
BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
 
Now that IS interesting. Why would Carlos Beltran - the most clutch, feared, greatest hitter in post season history"  (according to the press anyways) be bunting ?
 
The obvious answer is the rib injury ..
 
didn't he try bunting in a prior at bat?
 

Stan Papi Was Framed

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TheYellowDart5 said:
 
Dempster's barely pitched in the playoffs and looked eminently hittable in Game 1. Your other options were Morales, Uehara for six outs, or Tazawa for as many outs as you dare. Given that you used Tazawa for several high-leverage, high-stress outs last night, not to mention an insanely high-leverage out in the seventh, and you have Game 5 looming tomorrow, I can understand Farrell opting to give him a breather in the hopes that he'd be ready for a full inning tomorrow. So you're down to Morales or Uehara against Adams, Molina and Jay.
 
I can see going to Morales, with the idea that he can get Adams and Jay and hope for the best against Molina. But he's been so far from reliable in the postseason, I can completely understand Farrell avoiding him there. So now you're down to Uehara for six outs, which is at least 20 or so pitches, with Game 5 tomorrow.
 
It was a weird decision given that Lackey's relief experience is slim and none, but Rembrat's right; with Breslow going into the tank, the reliable arms in the bullpen are Uehara, Tazawa and Doubront, and that's it.
 
Maybe a question for another thread, but if this is the max of what can be expected from Buchholz/the Sox don't think Buchholz can pitch any more this season, should the Sox remove him from the roster and bring in Thornton or Britton? Neither of those guys is a difference maker, but they can hopefully at least get some outs in the middle innings if needed and maybe replace Breslow as a late LHP option.
I would add Workman as another reliable arm in the pen.  Could play a role tonight.
 

Stan Papi Was Framed

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Stitch01 said:
I guess if you are going to use Lackey you really want to give him a clean inning and it let them double switch in Napoli. Still might have just rolled with Tazawa unless he's wearing down some.

Didn't really get holding the runner on, but I'll take it!

Ross for Salty was good as was his handling of Buchholz. I'd go back to Salty for game six though.
ride Ross if at all possible. especially given his recent run with Lester.
 

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Toe Nash said:
But he threw last night, so he's not going to go again except in an emergency. He's not a rubber-armed reliever, he's a converted starter. Once you burn Doubie you may as well get 3-4 innings from him. Dempster is the first line of defense tonight.
Guess you were wrong. Doubie was the first man out of the pen last night and he pitched very effectively. With hindsight, do you still question Farrell for taking him out of the game on Saturday?
 

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Toe Nash said:
...
 
That said, I had zero problem with using Lackey. He seems like he still has all his stuff at this point in the year and he was going to throw anyway. And color me pleasantly surprised Doubront pitched and pitched so well. I'd hope the plan for a potential game 7 includes an inning or two of Lester to help get from Peavy to Tazawa / Uehara.
Should we get that far, I would think Game 7 would be Peavy with a short hook, then Doubront for as much as possible, then Workman, Lester, Taz, Uehara.  Get as much from our LHPs as possible, alternate LH/RH to burn StL's pinch hitters early.  Play the hotter hands and avoid Breslow unless he has redeemed himself in Games 5 and 6.
 
Of course, I'd rather we score 12 runs in each of the next two games, but I haven't been getting many wishes fulfilled this series....
 

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richgedman'sghost said:
Guess you were wrong. Doubie was the first man out of the pen last night and he pitched very effectively. With hindsight, do you still question Farrell for taking him out of the game on Saturday?
Guess I was (I did note that I was pleasantly surprised a couple posts up). You're the man.
 
Given how well Doubront was pitching in game 3, and the fact that after he was removed Breslow and Tazawa gave up the tie, then yes, I do still question taking him out. If he stays in they are pretty likely to win that game and he is used to pitching more than two innings at a time. They couldn't have then used him last night but Dempster has a decent shot to be competent for two innings too.
 

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Could Felix being pulled be related to tomorrow's game given the uncertainty of Clay? If he cannot last long your only option would then be Dempster.


HEAR, HEAR!
 

Paul M

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Has to get credit for using Lackey--they basically had no one else. Splitting two games with back-to-back 4 inning outings from the starters is pretty tough. At the same time, I'm of the opinion you can't worry about the next game and pulling an effective Doubront still was questionable at best. Yes, Game 4 was going to require some deft bullpen managing, but you can almost see Game 4 as confirmation Game 3 was not managed well. But, all in all, a sign that Farrell is a quick study and is learning. And now he gets the next two nights to hopefully close it out with two guys that should at least get into the 6th.
 

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Paul M said:
Has to get credit for using Lackey--they basically had no one else. Splitting two games with back-to-back 4 inning outings from the starters is pretty tough. At the same time, I'm of the opinion you can't worry about the next game and pulling an effective Doubront still was questionable at best. Yes, Game 4 was going to require some deft bullpen managing, but you can almost see Game 4 as confirmation Game 3 was not managed well. But, all in all, a sign that Farrell is a quick study and is learning. And now he gets the next two nights to hopefully close it out with two guys that should at least get into the 6th.
 
Only if we choose to forget his previous inter-league experience - 1 year with the Sox, 2 with the Jays.   And whatever he might have noticed as a pitching coach.  
 

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Paul M said:
Has to get credit for using Lackey--they basically had no one else. Splitting two games with back-to-back 4 inning outings from the starters is pretty tough. At the same time, I'm of the opinion you can't worry about the next game and pulling an effective Doubront still was questionable at best. Yes, Game 4 was going to require some deft bullpen managing, but you can almost see Game 4 as confirmation Game 3 was not managed well. But, all in all, a sign that Farrell is a quick study and is learning. And now he gets the next two nights to hopefully close it out with two guys that should at least get into the 6th.
They may not have had anybody else, but that was the direct result of the quick hook on Dubrount after he gave up his first hit of the night, and his decision to use Tazawa for a single batter.  Pulling pitchers early (Lackey in game 2, Dubront in both games 3 and 4, Tazawa last night) have not among Farrell's better decisions.
 

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They had Workman or they could have tried to get 2 more outs from Taz and the last 4 from Koji.  I wouldn't have used Lackey there (mostly out of uncertainty using him in an unfamiliar roll), but it worked out brilliantly and the pen is in good shape for tonight. 
 

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Philip Jeff Frye said:
They may not have had anybody else, but that was the direct result of the quick hook on Dubrount after he gave up his first hit of the night, and his decision to use Tazawa for a single batter.  Pulling pitchers early (Lackey in game 2, Dubront in both games 3 and 4, Tazawa last night) have not among Farrell's better decisions.
Of course, we've seen the same from opposing managers as well; Leyland with Scherzer; Matheny with Lynn last night, and with Kelly on Saturday night.  
 

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Philip Jeff Frye said:
They may not have had anybody else, but that was the direct result of the quick hook on Dubrount after he gave up his first hit of the night, and his decision to use Tazawa for a single batter.  Pulling pitchers early (Lackey in game 2, Dubront in both games 3 and 4, Tazawa last night) have not among Farrell's better decisions.
 
I get the quick hook complaint on Doubront in Game 3. But last night too? Its the first time he'd gone back to back in a couple of years. 57 pitches in consecutive games is enough for the manager to think that he might be losing it.
 
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