Let's talk about Michael Pineda

[chrisfont9]

Interesting stuff in the post-game comments.
 
* The Yankees were in a hurry to take full responsibility for the incident, in a way that seems intent on defusing the matter. So this isn't the start of some season-long gamesmanship, it appears.
 
* Pineda sounds really, really embarrassed. I almost feel bad for the guy.
 
So how the hell did it happen? It's kind of baffling. It's so obvious, and so clear where this was headed, and yet nobody stopped it. Just… weird. 

 

[Wingack]

Pretty sure that applying a foreign substance is an automatic 10 game suspension. Whatever it ends up being, he will have a little break coming up given that he was tossed for it.

 
If Yankee fans are looking for a silver lining, the 10 game suspension will allow him to pitch deeper into the season.
 
 
As an aside, I love that this stuff happens during Yankees-Sox games.

 

[Sampo Gida]

 
If Yankee fans are looking for a silver lining, the 10 game suspension will allow him to pitch deeper into the season.
 
 
As an aside, I love that this stuff happens during Yankees-Sox games.

 
I said the same thing in another forum.  I am concerned about his declining velocity and today his slider was not very good., 
He also did a lot of stretching like he was not comfortable. 
 
I also have to wonder how much the pine tar had to do with his effectiveness.  I don't believe pitchers only use it for a better grip, and suspect that's why MLB bans it.  In fact, Pineda also used the stuff in the dome in Toronto, so that prove it.

 

[Dummy Hoy]

Pitcher do use it for a better grip- what else would you use a sticky substance for?

That tighter grip allows you to put more rotation on the ball.

 

[orphan]

How would the Yankees manage the suspension? Would he be sent to the minors for the starts he misses? I know some think it could be a blessing in disguise in terms of limits on innings pitched, but the kid was on a roll and re-establishing himself. 

 

[Merkle's Boner]

How would the Yankees manage the suspension? Would he be sent to the minors for the starts he misses? I know some think it could be a blessing in disguise in terms of limits on innings pitched, but the kid was on a roll and re-establishing himself. 

Don't think that's allowed.

 

[Average Reds]

Pitcher do use it for a better grip- what else would you use a sticky substance for?

That tighter grip allows you to put more rotation on the ball.

 
We went through this same conversation last year when Clay was suspected of using some kind of mixture for better grip.
 
There's a reason that teams/players don't get especially upset at the notion of using pine tar or other "tacky" substances and that's because they not used to give the pitcher an edge that is considered deceptive; they are used for better grip.  
 
If someone wants to make an argument that this is a distinction without a difference, that (to me) is a legitimate argument.  But to say that pine tar could be used to aerodynamically alter the flight of the ball (the way that cutting the ball does) or provide deception (the way slippery substances do) simply indicates that the person doesn't understand what they are talking about.
 
The MLB ban on pitchers using pine tar is like the ban on pine tar that goes higher than 18 inches on the bat - it's an old rule that may have made sense in a different context (80+ years ago) but has no relevance today and for some reason MLB can't bring themselves to change it.

 

[Oil Can Dan]

Okay, so pine tar helps improve your grip on the ball. An improved grip helps you control where the ball goes. Batters prefer you have some semblance of control so that they're not peeling themselves off the dirt every other at-bat.

Having the ability to control where the ball goes seems to me to be the determining factor in whether you're a good pitcher or a bad pitcher, though. Either Pineda gets discreet and continues tarring up the ball, or he may be in rough shape going forward.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Interesting stuff in the post-game comments.
 
* The Yankees were in a hurry to take full responsibility for the incident, in a way that seems intent on defusing the matter. So this isn't the start of some season-long gamesmanship, it appears.
 
* Pineda sounds really, really embarrassed. I almost feel bad for the guy.
 
So how the hell did it happen? It's kind of baffling. It's so obvious, and so clear where this was headed, and yet nobody stopped it. Just… weird. 

 
 
Right, was this a case of a forewarned Pineda basically insisting on doing things his way and blatantly daring anyone to enforce the rule?

 

[Rovin Romine]

Okay, so pine tar helps improve your grip on the ball. An improved grip helps you control where the ball goes. Batters prefer you have some semblance of control so that they're not peeling themselves off the dirt every other at-bat.

Having the ability to control where the ball goes seems to me to be the determining factor in whether you're a good pitcher or a bad pitcher, though. Either Pineda gets discreet and continues tarring up the ball, or he may be in rough shape going forward.

 
This is what I don't get.  If you can't control the ball you're going to walk a lot of people and be quickly out of the majors.  Or you're going to have to throw less hard and try to refine your control.  Or you're going to have to give up a pitch.  It does not automatically follow that no pine tar use means batters are going to get beaned left and right.  

 

[Lowrielicious]

Okay, so pine tar helps improve your grip on the ball. An improved grip helps you control where the ball goes. Batters prefer you have some semblance of control so that they're not peeling themselves off the dirt every other at-bat.

Having the ability to control where the ball goes seems to me to be the determining factor in whether you're a good pitcher or a bad pitcher, though. Either Pineda gets discreet and continues tarring up the ball, or he may be in rough shape going forward.

This is my take on it too. In my experience (about a million miles from the major leagues in more ways than one....but still plenty of years of playing baseball) rosin does improve your grip. It dries your fingers and gives you a "rougher" feel on the ball, i.e. less slippery feel. But pinetar is at another level.
 
Rosin will decrease the amount your fingers will slip across the ball. Put enough pinetar on your fingers and you will have to peel the ball off your fingers. Obviously more grip means you can control the ball better and impart more spin for sharper break. 
 
I believe this is why it is illegal and rosin isn't. 

 

[DJnVa]

I don't have a problem with it, as long as it's subtle, like many others have said. You just can't be ridiculously obvious about it.
 
That said, the whole "he used it because it was cold" doesn't hold much water for me. Didn't he also have it on his hand when they played Toronto? Indoors. In 70 degree weather.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

It's not an either/or question.  He used pine tar to get a better grip in the cold.  More control = fewer wild pitches and fewer balls.  But getting a significantly better grip also helps the pitcher impart more spin, whether you're outdoors or indoors.  More spin leads to sharper breaks on your pitches = more effective/deceptive pitches.  Pine tar is far stickier than rosin (which is more tacky than sticky, really).
 
The Bullfrog/water mix  seems to be a good compromise for pitchers looking for more stick than rosin.  Just as illegal as pine tar but far less visible.  Pineda needs to use his 8-10 day vacation to experiment with Bullfrog so that he can continue to cheat when necessary - like many other pitchers do - but get away with it.

 

[DJnVa]

It's not an either/or question.  He used pine tar to get a better grip in the cold.

 
It wasn't cold in Toronto when he used it.
 

 

[Bob420]

It must be something about Toronto. 
 
Of course, the subterfuge tends to vanish when one applies sunscreen for a game played in a domed stadium, as Buchholz did at Rogers Centre.
 
Two veteran pitchers and one source close to the Red Sox told Yahoo! Sports that about 90 percent of major league pitchers use some form of spray-on sunscreen – almost always BullFrog brand – that when combined with powdered rosin gives them a far superior grip on the ball.
 
"Sunscreen and rosin could be used as foundation for houses," one American League pitcher said. "Produces a tack, glue-like substance that engineers would be jealous of."
 
As stated above,  Pineda needs to take the next 10 days to learn how to use BullFrog.

 

[EvilEmpire]

It isn't complicated. He uses it to get a better grip. Getting a good grip is harder in the cold, so under those conditions he probably needs it more.

He started the game without it. Girardi probably told him not to use it. After getting hit hard in the first inning he went back and got some. Seems like the kid panicked a bit and did something dumb.

 

[DJnVa]

It must be something about Toronto. 
 
Of course, the subterfuge tends to vanish when one applies sunscreen for a game played in a domed stadium, as Buchholz did at Rogers Centre.

 
Well, Buchholz didn't say he did it because it was cold. However, that's the line the Yankees are giving when it's not true, at least in every case.
 
 
To be clear: they both "cheated". However one is giving excuses that he's doing it because of outside conditions. Either admit the real reason, or don't give excuses that are not true.
 
 

He uses it to get a better grip.
 

 
Again though, this is fine, if he's using it for that in the weather conditions that cause this to be an issue. When you are using it in a dome to "get a better grip", it's not because it's cold and you think you might drill someone. There's another reason. What do you think that is?

 

[orphan]

Is there a consensus on pinetar use and baseballs? Farrell had no issue with it prior to this game and smartly called out Pineda after he was much more effective in the 2nd inning (after appearing with pinetar on neck).
 
Farrell doesn’t mind “unless it’s obvious”, interesting. 
 
What have other baseball managers, players said about it?
 
 
edit: for clarification I meant what do other baseball managers and players say about pinetar use and pitchers using it in general.

 

[DJnVa]

They've said that it's not a big deal, especially in cold weather, but you can't flaunt it. If you're discreet, they'll let it go.
 
Even Cashman said last night that he'd want his manager to do what JF did in that circumstance.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

DrewDawg: Regarding posts #315 and 316 above, you need to read people's entire posts.  There are TWO REASONS you'd use pine tar.  One is to get a better grip, especially in the cold, to maintain control.  The second is to impart more spin on the ball - REGARDLESS OF THE WEATHER.  Just because it isn't cold inside a dome doesn't mean he wouldn't use pine tar.  See reason #2 above. 
 
Make sense? Two different reasons.  Control and spin.  Those are not the same things.

 

[EvilEmpire]

Again though, this is fine, if he's using it for that in the weather conditions that cause this to be an issue. When you are using it in a dome to "get a better grip", it's not because it's cold and you think you might drill someone. There's another reason. What do you think that is?

The reasons don't really matter. Cheating is cheating. But I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Pine tar helps him get a better grip under any conditions. A better grip helps him throw the ball the way he wants. Colder conditions make gripping the ball the way Pineda needs to even more difficult, thus increasing his reliance on the pine tar.

He started the game without it and then went back to get some after he got hit hard. We don't know if the same thing would have happened in Toronto. He may have been able to get by, but we don't know. We have no way of knowing how much the weather conditions impacted him.

Again though, it really doesn't matter.

 

[Bob420]

Yes. It's to get a better grip.  Does it really matter the reason they give for trying to get a better grip?  It's the same reason Buchholz was all lathered up in sunscreen indoors in Toronto. 
 
Is your issue with the reason for wanting a better grip?  If they had said: Indoors the air conditioning dries out his hands and makes the ball slippery in his hand, outdoors in spring and fall it's the cold and dry air, during the summer it's the sweat on his hands.....
 
What difference does it make?  Tons of pitchers use stuff to get a better grip in all situations.  He was just a fool in how he did it.

 

[Average Reds]

 
Again though, this is fine, if he's using it for that in the weather conditions that cause this to be an issue. When you are using it in a dome to "get a better grip", it's not because it's cold and you think you might drill someone. There's another reason. What do you think that is?

 
I'm uncertain of the distinction you are making.  Pitchers use it to get a better grip in just about any condition.
 
The benefit tends to vanish in the summer months when the combination of rosin and water works very well.  But in the spring and fall - or in a 70 degree low humidity environment - pine tar works best.

 

[Lowrielicious]

 
Well, Buchholz didn't say he did it because it was cold. However, that's the line the Yankees are giving when it's not true, at least in every case.
 
 
To be clear: they both "cheated". However one is giving excuses that he's doing it because of outside conditions. Either admit the real reason, or don't give excuses that are not true.
 

 
The earlier excuse was also that it was dirt. Which was clearly untrue. 
 
 

Is there a consensus on pinetar use and baseballs? Farrell had no issue with it prior to this game and smartly called out Pineda after he was much more effective in the 2nd inning (after appearing with pinetar on neck).
 
Farrell doesn’t mind “unless it’s obvious”, interesting. 
 
What have other baseball managers, players said about it?
 
 
edit: for clarification I meant what do other baseball managers and players say about pinetar use and pitchers using it in general.

 
 
While not specifically about pinetar, Gibbons (toronto manager) did ask the umps to check Baltimores Gonzalez the day before Farrell called out Pineda. 
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/?content_id=32297723&team_id=110
 
You can see Gibbons motion about touching inside his thumb (glove hand) at the start of the video, and gonzalez do it before a pitch right at the end. May just be a nervous tic / habit as umps checked the spot and found nothing.
So clearly at least one other manager has no problem bringing an opposing pitcher to the attention of umpires if he thinks something suspicious is going on. 
 
The reason that wasn't a bit story like Farrell / Pineda is is because a) it's redsox/Yankees and b) Pineda was so ridiculously blatant about it. 

 

[terrynever]

The Yankees were very pleased with the cultural/baseball transition Tanaka completed so easily over the offseason. Tanaka is surrounded by a support team. It is another story with Pineda, who is typical of many Latino players that struggle with a new language and their own cultural issues. The Yankees should accept total blame for not preparing this kid for the scrutiny he would receive, especially after NESN caught him with the pine tar last week. 
 
The Yankees had their heads up their ass, same as their television network, YES, which didn't do the reporting job NESN did. Cone and Leiter both said the pine tar doesn't create movement on pitches but how can we believe their word anymore when the network is obviously following orders not to pursue stories that are damaging to the pinstripes? According to the Daily News, John Sterling actually did a better job reporting last night's incident than YES did. That's pretty damning.

 

[DJnVa]

 
I'm uncertain of the distinction you are making.  Pitchers use it to get a better grip in just about any condition..

 
I clearly didn't make my point well, but what I was trying to convey was:
 
1--pine tar+cold weather=no problems, as long as it's not blatant
2--pine tar+not cold weather=more iffy
 
The Yankees/Pineda were saying he only uses it because of cold weather. It wasn't cold in Toronto when he was using it. That's all. I wasn't so much saying he didn't need it in Toronto (low humidity environment), I was just saying the "cold weather is the reason" excuse doesn't work when it wasn't cold.

 

[Rovin Romine]

The Yankees were very pleased with the cultural/baseball transition Tanaka completed so easily over the offseason. Tanaka is surrounded by a support team. It is another story with Pineda, who is typical of many Latino players that struggle with a new language and their own cultural issues. The Yankees should accept total blame for not preparing this kid for the scrutiny he would receive, especially after NESN caught him with the pine tar last week. 
 
The Yankees had their heads up their ass, same as their television network, YES, which didn't do the reporting job NESN did. Cone and Leiter both said the pine tar doesn't create movement on pitches but how can we believe their word anymore when the network is obviously following orders not to pursue stories that are damaging to the pinstripes? According to the Daily News, John Sterling actually did a better job reporting last night's incident than YES did. That's pretty damning.

 
Pineda has been playing in the US since 2008.  I'm not really sure how much of this to lay at anyone but Pineda's door.  

 

[DJnVa]

 
 
Is your issue with the reason for wanting a better grip?  If they had said: Indoors the air conditioning dries out his hands and makes the ball slippery in his hand, outdoors in spring and fall it's the cold and dry air, during the summer it's the sweat on his hands.....

 
Yes basically--I was just amused with the way they phrased the excuse. I don't have a problem with the usage, outside of the blatant nature.

 

[terrynever]

 
Pineda has been playing in the US since 2008.  I'm not really sure how much of this to lay at anyone but Pineda's door.  

Yeah, but this is his first real year in the New York spotlight. How would this story have played out had it happened in Seattle?
 
And there is this from Cashman: "I'm embarrassed that we had an organizational breakdown that allowed this to happen." 

 

[JimBoSox9]

 
I clearly didn't make my point well, but what I was trying to convey was:
 
1--pine tar+cold weather=no problems, as long as it's not blatant
2--pine tar+not cold weather=more iffy
 
The Yankees/Pineda were saying he only uses it because of cold weather. It wasn't cold in Toronto when he was using it. That's all. I wasn't so much saying he didn't need it in Toronto (low humidity environment), I was just saying the "cold weather is the reason" excuse doesn't work when it wasn't cold.

 
It's possible I just made this up in my head, but I think the drier air in dome stadiums is believed by pitchers to create similar grip problems as cold weather.  
 
Of course, the real reason is that pitchers, as a breed, are not known for for doing things 'sometimes' when it comes to the process of delivering a pitch.  Dude probably feels naked without it.
 
 
My final vote: the lighting in Fenway's visiting clubhouse sucks and Pineda thought it blended in better than it did.  How this train traveled as far as it did before derailing is just straight mystifying.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The YES replay shows Farrell clearly saying "He's got damn pine tar all over his neck" to the ump before Davis went out to check Pineda. It was the blatancy that cause Farrell to ask the ump to check him.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

 

My final vote: the lighting in Fenway's visiting clubhouse sucks and Pineda thought it blended in better than it did.  How this train traveled as far as it did before derailing is just straight mystifying.

 
Remember, Pineda did not have the pine tar on his neck in the first inning, so before the game began Girardi likely saw him and thought nothing was amiss. Pineda put it on after the first inning, in the clubhouse, but Giardi like all managers stayed in the dugout. Remember when Farrell was managing the Jays and wasn't aware Escobar had a homophobic message written on his eyeblack? Managers sometimes miss things.

 

[Bone Chips]

Why not just legalize it? What am I missing here? Are they afraid that it will make it easier to conceal the of use of other foreign substances not used for grip, but for ball movement?

 

[JimBoSox9]

 
Remember, Pineda did not have the pine tar on his neck in the first inning, so before the game began Girardi likely saw him and thought nothing was amiss. Pineda put it on after the first inning, in the clubhouse, but Giardi like all managers stayed in the dugout. Remember when Farrell was managing the Jays and wasn't aware Escobar had a homophobic message written on his eyeblack? Managers sometimes miss things.

 
Until Pineda stops wearing a ballcap like everyone else, I'm sticking with "straight mystifying".

 

[Jnai]

Why not just legalize it? What am I missing here? Are they afraid that it will make it easier to conceal the of use of other foreign substances not used for grip, but for ball movement?

 
There's really no problem with the current rule, which allows for pitchers to wear sunscreen, sweat, use rosin, and shave. 99% of pitchers put stuff on their hands to grip the ball. 99.9% of those guys do it in a way that doesn't blatantly break the rules.
 
This is not really a rules problem. It's a Pineda problem. He was just being dumb.

 

[tims4wins]

Just heard Sterling calling the sequence - hysterical - along the lines of "don't worry Yankee fans, Girardi will be sure to do this with Boston pitchers since they are known for using foreign substances as well" and "Farrell may have started something that he won't be happy he started by the end of the year"

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

Nice breakdown of Pineda's previous start at Boston:
 
http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2014/04/15/how-did-the-pine-tar-affect-pinedas-performance/

 
 
I have my own opinions on what the MLB should do with their pine tar rules, but I’d like to focus more on how it affected Pineda’s performance, since it’s very unlikely we see him using it in future games. After the 4th inning, when Pineda had 60 pitches, the NESN broadcast showed a close up of pine tar. Immediately after, the substance moved from the bottom of his hand to his glove-side wrist.

 
Immediately after Pineda removed the “pine tar” from the bottom of his hand, his velocity decreased rather significantly. Where he was sitting 93-95 mph from the 1st through 4th innings, he sat around 89-91 mph with his last 34 pitches, topping out at 91.8 mph. The velocity in the last few innings was right where he sat in Spring Training, where we didn’t see any use of pine tar. In his first start against the Blue Jays, it looked like Pineda also had something on his hand, and in that start he didn’t show the same velocity decline as he hit 93.6 mph and 94.8 mph with his last two fastballs of the night.

 

 

 
 
Movement-wise, it’s much more difficult to see a difference between the first 60 pitches and his last 34 pitches. Perhaps he cuts the fastball more without the “pine tar”, but there’s less significance here than with what we saw in his velocity.

 

 

[BornToRun]

Just heard Sterling calling the sequence - hysterical - along the lines of "don't worry Yankee fans, Girardi will be sure to do this with Boston pitchers since they are known for using foreign substances as well" and "Farrell may have started something that he won't be happy he started by the end of the year"

Is there any place I can find this recording online because I'd love to hear it.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

Just heard Sterling calling the sequence - hysterical - along the lines of "don't worry Yankee fans, Girardi will be sure to do this with Boston pitchers since they are known for using foreign substances as well" and "Farrell may have started something that he won't be happy he started by the end of the year"

this was mostly Suzyn Waldman's hysterical reaction

 

[terrynever]

this was mostly Suzyn Waldman's hysterical reaction

Here is a NY Daily News story about the reaction of YES announcers and Sterling to last night's events:
 
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/raissman-yes-voices-stuck-tar-pit-article-1.1767145

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Nice breakdown of Pineda's previous start at Boston:
 
http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2014/04/15/how-did-the-pine-tar-affect-pinedas-performance/
 

 
This is really cool to look at. Thanks for posting.  That said, we can't be sure he hadn't just worn down at the same time, or that the psychological effect of "losing his edge" led to him having less confidence in his control and easing up to keep the ball in the zone.
 
I've never heard of pine tar adding velocity before.

 

[OfTheCarmen]

Anyone have a link to Pineda's interview?

 

[cannonball 1729]

Why not just legalize it? What am I missing here? Are they afraid that it will make it easier to conceal the of use of other foreign substances not used for grip, but for ball movement?

 
The most obvious reason not to legalize pine tar is that pine tar is a dark substance.  Anything that makes it harder to see the ball is dangerous, and safety was one of the primary reasons that spitballs were outlawed in the first place.

 

[SidelineCameras]

Is there any place I can find this recording online because I'd love to hear it.

 
Toucher and Rich opened the 8 o'clock hour with it: http://boston.cbslocal.com/?podcast_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.podtrac.com%2Fpts%2Fredirect.mp3%2Fnyc.podcast.play.it%2Fmedia%2Fd0%2Fd0%2Fd1%2Fd5%2Fd5%2FdY%2Fd5%2F155Y5_4.MP3%3Fauthtok%3D5562385550929027170_VkpBKLS8g14KnlCTErg2kWuNT0&podcast_name=April+24+Hour+3&podcast_artist=Toucher+%26amp%3B+Rich&station_id=91&tag=&dcid=CBS.BOSTON
 
They usually don't keep these up for longer than a day or two do the link probably won't work past the weekend.

 

[DJnVa]

Just heard Sterling calling the sequence - hysterical - along the lines of "don't worry Yankee fans, Girardi will be sure to do this with Boston pitchers since they are known for using foreign substances as well" and "Farrell may have started something that he won't be happy he started by the end of the year"

 
Of course Girardi and Cashmen have both said they really don't have a problem with it and likely would have done the same.

 

[chrisfont9]

Is there any place I can find this recording online because I'd love to hear it.

This video compiles the various TV and radio reactions:
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_04_23_nyamlb_bosmlb_1&mode=video&content_id=32332517&tcid=vpp_copy_32332517

 

[BornToRun]

This video compiles the various TV and radio reactions:
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_04_23_nyamlb_bosmlb_1&mode=video&content_id=32332517&tcid=vpp_copy_32332517

Thank you very much.

 

[soxhop411]

--- beat with the link

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

God Waldman is such a harpy. "John Farrell isn't going to like where this ends up." Just die already.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Sterling said that it's known that Red Sox pitches load their hair with oil to "put something on the ball."  What a moron.