Let's say BB stays on until he retires. What does that mean for the franchise?
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
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They were really, really good without all of those guys except for one (ok, and Scar).
This is why I say it’s like a Celtics player dribbling the wrong way in the last seconds to score a layup for the other team. It’s something that maybe you’d think might happen in 4th grade rec basketball but isn’t something you’d ever need to coach in the NBA. It’s just so utterly incomprehensible. I like the way you put it - it defies basic quantum fundamentals of football.
as a broncos fan i wouild take him in a heartbeat allready ready on def just need a better OL and qb lol
So it was the coaches fault. Right? That’s what you’re saying. The coaches are so bad that both Rham and Jakobi made utterly dumb plays that there is no other explanation than that Bill is so bad at his job that he essentially made them do it?
I can’t figure out what you’re saying anymore.
The downside risk of moving on from Bill is considerable and as of yet hasn’t been addressed by people who want him gone after the season.
I'm actually OK with the draw given that it was a tie game. Lower risk than a Hail Mary attempt that could result in a strip sack or underthrown ball. The hope is that you can catch the Raiders off guard a bit and Stevenson can juke the defense in the 2nd level; stranger things have happened. Unfortunately, stranger things did happen.
Maybe I’m wrong but I’m also hard pressed to believe that BB will happily accept any OC or coaching staff change forced on him by the Krafts. I think your options realistically are (1) accept BBS plan to change the offense which may or may not involve the kind of changes folks want or (2) hope he retires and if not fire him.
This is true. I think he’s having his worst year here by far, and this is a very poorly coached team. And, he absolutely has to make major staff changes in the offseason, that he really just can’t balk at. But, if anyone has ever earned a mulligan, he has. And unless people have a specific name(s) in mind of who they think will do a better job, and who are actually available, firing him just to fire him is a reactionary, and foolish take, IMO.
My best guess, based on nothing more than watching how Belichick has done things over the past 22 years, is that there's a better than 50/50 chance that Patricia is still around next season involved in the offense in some capacity. And there is zero chance the team moves on from Bill; too much crazy talk in this thread. The team's GM rebuilt the defense that was badly aging out a couple of seasons ago.
Still, Kraft's patience isn't infinite, and the offense will be expected to show signs of life next season or Bill's seat could definitely get warm. Mac and the inept offense were a far bigger problem in this game than Jakobi's Boner.
BB is losing leverage every day with the Krafts. This season is likely to end 7-10/8-9 so that’s 2 of the last 3 years with losing records after it was Bill who decided to move on from Brady. That needs to be a major factor in his future along with how poor his player evaluations have been in free agency wasting a boatload of Kraft’s money on garbage players.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bill's "it's too late in the season to make a change" answer when asked about the offensive leadership a week or two ago imply that Matty P will be reassigned after the season? I haven't heard any full-throated defenses of the offensive game plan from BB in the second half of the year.
I don’t think that either the Krafts or BB will approach it that way. The Krafts wouldn’t even know who to ‘require’ Bill to hire in lieu of Patricia, and they also know that. I think they’ll certainly discuss the concerns with the offensive coaching staff and Bill will have to sell a plan to them. I just don’t think they’ll launch ultimatums at him. And for Bill’s part, and while I’m prepared to be wrong, I don’t think Bill will roll into a meeting with Bob and Jonathan with a status quo proposal. Bill has a great set up with the Pats and won’t want to start over somewhere else, so I think he will recognize the value in appeasing his bosses. If he did brush the Krafts off and essentially pursue a status quo approach to the staff, then I think the conversation could get dicey. I just don’t see that happening.
Relatedly, I also think he - if he hasn’t already - will independently reach the conclusion that they need to approach the offense differently from all angles. I mean, look at how he restructured the scouting/draft operation the last few years to inject more new voices and a more consensus-driven approach.
I'm a guy on a message board, so take this with all appropriate skepticism and grains of salt. I have a long term friend that knows the Krafts extremely well and has done business with them (not football, but he has partnered with them on other endeavors). This friend golfs regularly with RKK and other members of his family.
The friend has said (this was before today's debacle) that RKK has zero interest in firing Belichick as he just doesn't want to deal with that drama at this point in RKK's life. He also said that Jonathan doesn't give 2 fucks, that he's ready to move on from Belichick and that he thinks he'd fire Belichick within in a year of taking over the operation if RKK were to pass on or give up the reigns.
The friend has said (this was before today's debacle) that RKK has zero interest in firing Belichick as he just doesn't want to deal with that drama at this point in RKK's life. He also said that Jonathan doesn't give 2 fucks, that he's ready to move on from Belichick and that he thinks he'd fire Belichick within in a year of taking over the operation if RKK were to pass on or give up the reigns.
I think you’re right; I think the most likely result is there are changes we can’t see to streamline playcalling so there aren’t so many timeouts, delays etc, they get some more oline coaching help and they also hope Patricia gets better with practice. That won’t make anyone here happy
Kraft signed off on the Brady decision. And Belichick's recent success in the last couple of drafts (Uche had a great game; Stevenson; various Joneses not named Mac; the other Harris; Strange and Onwenu were all on the positive side of ledger today) will be factored in. Also, Judon was a damn good FA sign.
The scary thing is - if BB is fired (he won't and shouldn't be) - we may get someone far worse in return, and we pine for the days for even late-career BB.
Bill’s done a great job turning the D roster over. It’s the O that is a fire fire inside a dumpster fire inside a sinking ship.
Three years after he decided to move on from Brady and the O needs a complete overhaul, from roster to staff.
Three years after he decided to move on from Brady and the O needs a complete overhaul, from roster to staff.
May?
They are .500 without a quarterback or offensive coordinator. The next coach will almost definitely be worse than even current day Bill. They may bring a more exciting style, especially on the offensive side of the ball.
Proposed changes:
Achord - fired or given other responsibilities
Judge - returns to special teams and has some o responsibilities (vague sounding)
Patricia - I think he will be back as OC, but if so they need to hire an O line coach. Alternately, they hire an OC and he takes the line and does all his other stuff
Hire a legit accomplished QB coach.
Achord - fired or given other responsibilities
Judge - returns to special teams and has some o responsibilities (vague sounding)
Patricia - I think he will be back as OC, but if so they need to hire an O line coach. Alternately, they hire an OC and he takes the line and does all his other stuff
Hire a legit accomplished QB coach.
YMMV, but it just seemed like another example of his SOP of killing off discussing something he doesn't want to talk about.
Question for BB: Can you clarify your thoughts on Situation X?
Answer: I have already addressed Situation X in the statement* issued a couple of days ago. Next?
Question for BB: Who is going to be the playcaller on offense this season?
Answer: Look, we're months away from anyone having to call plays in a game. Next?
Question for BB: Do you see a need to make changes with the offense's coaching structure?
Answer: "I don’t think at this point making a lot of dramatic changes is – it’s too hard to do that." Next?
* Said statement usually says a whole lot of nothing.
I'd prefer Brian Flores. Knows the culture at Foxborough, did fairly well to turn around the Dolphins, and the Steelers D is still pretty good. They need a fresh start, and they need someone else to be in charge of drafting.
Well you never know. The Sox have had really good luck with new managers coming in, they seem to win their first season which is also nice for the fans to welcome them in.
This is it. Bill certainly wasn’t making some cryptic comment about Patricia. He just didn’t want to talk about their offensive ineptitude.
He didn't want to throw anyone under the bus to the media. He has never done that in 22 years here, and he's not about to start doing it to Patricia just to satisfy some message board posters.
I feel bad for Patricia and Judge. BB was trying to rehabilitate these guys and it has blown up in all their faces. This team has a pitiable offense. They are smart guys. they know this. I cannot imagine anyone wants to do this again. With such a shitty offense, the fact that the team is .500 speaks well of BB’s defensive staff and players.
Honest question: why? Do you feel bad for Myles Bryant or any other player/coach who doesn’t work out? Patricia and Judge needed to be rehabilitated because of their own failings, some of which were entirely correctable, especially in Patricia’s case.
I don’t feel bad for these guys at all. They’re not even remotely qualified for their positions, yet, BB threw them a lifeline. They are lucky. They’re probably making more here than anywhere else.
What does this mean? Could this team end up in the hands of someone who would coach it far worse than it is right now?
People need to realize that BB is 70. He's not likely to drastically change up the way he does things and even if they turn this around, he's not going to be here forever. There is no obvious line of succession that he's grooming. I understand the fear of letting an era truly end, but I would love to know what this "downside risk" is at this point compared to where we are right now. If your answer is "the defense will fall into an abyss" then I might accept it, because the tire fires surrounding that defense don't make up for it.
They’re making virtually nothing here - they’re still cashing those head coach checks.
The team is .500 and the defense has played well but when you look at their W's the best QB they have beaten is Jared Goff when DET was missing a lot of key players including Swift and I believe Amon-Ra. The other QBs NE have beaten are Zach Wilson X2, Ehlinger, McCoy, Brisett & Trubisky. Tonight the D was great for 80% of the game but when they needed a stop Carr went through them like a knife through warm butter.
They would have lower titles elsewhere. Their salaries here, whatever they are, are likely higher than whatever salaries they could get elsewhere.
Yes, my point is that the team could end up in the hands of someone worse.
I don’t think you are confused by my post.
They probably believed they could make this offense work and they were clearly delusional. I have empathy for those asked to do what they cannot.
That’s because their offense sucks and against better QBs you need them to actually score some points.
I think a lot of this is reactionary. BB is an all time great defensive coach, matty p or whoever is is not getting it done we need a real o coordinator. i think bill is smart enough late in his career to know he needs someone competent to take over the o coordinator role, this experiment is not working.
I doubt this helps support your point (which I agree with) but in addition to my other basketball coaching duties, I also coach my fourth grade son's rec team. And at a crucial point yesterday I told this one player to "take the ball out; you inbound it." So he made a beeline to our bench to grab a spare ball out of the ball bag. I told my assistant there's no doubt in my mind his parents are blaming me for not specifying which ball to "take out."
I mean I've thought it was pretty clear the entire 'let's bring in two defensive people and have them coach the offense' was basically an attempt to figure out which one BB trusted on both sides of the ball to hand the reins to... it hasn't worked, but that's not the same as not trying
Yeah - this conversation strikes me a lot like those NCAA teams that sit around the 10-15 range for a few years, then the fans/boosters/athletic director start thinking 'we really should be contending for a national championship and this guy isn't good enough, let's fire him and we'll be champions!!', and they do that and then spend the next decade bouncing between coaches and going between sub-500 and 22nd ranked seasons.
Clearly the OC decision didn't work. So the question is 'is it better to fire them this late in the season and bring in someone new (who probably can't actually change anything at this point), or see what you can salvage this year and then make a change after'? I think there's perfectly valid arguments for the former, but BB clearly prefers the latter.
In general, it is fair to criticize some tactical coaching decisions from afar. It's super hard to judge things like communication between coaches and players that we're not privy to. One of my favorite assistants like to say when imagining the parents' or fans' reaction when a player of ours would throw a pick-2 in basketball, "Why did the coaches tell her not do THAT?" lol
Years ago Bill would have taken the offense aside before that last play and said
"Now remember, no laterals"
"and if you must lateral, only do it once"
"and if you decide to do it twice, don't throw it to Chandler Jones"
'but if you do, make sure you tackle him"
"and whatever you do, don't fumble"
"and don't forget the snap count"
"and make sure you're gloves aren't slippery"
"and watch both ways before you cross the street"
" and make sure to call your mom after the game"
Yessir. He could really coach then!!!
"Now remember, no laterals"
"and if you must lateral, only do it once"
"and if you decide to do it twice, don't throw it to Chandler Jones"
'but if you do, make sure you tackle him"
"and whatever you do, don't fumble"
"and don't forget the snap count"
"and make sure you're gloves aren't slippery"
"and watch both ways before you cross the street"
" and make sure to call your mom after the game"
Yessir. He could really coach then!!!
You all are insane, you are aware that the Dolphins a team with a cool new coach and a much better roster are 1 game above where the Pats are right?
Look around the NFL and look at the coaching and GM levels and tell me how you all are so sure the best of all time should be fired. And just to remind everyone, the Colts for the past 3 years were considered one of the best run teams by The Athletic peers survey's (that is the 4-9-1 Colts).
Look around the NFL and look at the coaching and GM levels and tell me how you all are so sure the best of all time should be fired. And just to remind everyone, the Colts for the past 3 years were considered one of the best run teams by The Athletic peers survey's (that is the 4-9-1 Colts).
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I wrote this above, but some of you think that BB is going to be here forever. Or that he's going to leave once he's built some institutional coaching staff that will continue the Patriot Way. All of this is clearly not the case. Those wanting to keep BB are hoping he's going to fire his entire staff and bring in - who, exactly? Outsiders? You're either getting BB and everything this is right now, or you fire him and do an entire coaching reboot. There is no, "let BB fire everyone and bring in a new staff." BB is this staff, even if he fires Patricia.
I am not one of the people saying fire him today but I am saying you are delusional if you think BB is looking at all of this and saying, "whoops" and gutting the coaching staff. What you are seeing is BB. Either he goes or this team continues to be handled the way it has been the last couple of years. The change you are dreaming of with BB at the helm isn't coming.
I am not one of the people saying fire him today but I am saying you are delusional if you think BB is looking at all of this and saying, "whoops" and gutting the coaching staff. What you are seeing is BB. Either he goes or this team continues to be handled the way it has been the last couple of years. The change you are dreaming of with BB at the helm isn't coming.
Coming at this from a different angle: "Let's say BB stays on until he retires. What does that mean for the franchise?"
The defense has been, at worst, good this year. Maybe better than its personnel? There's no legit #1 CB, inside LB continues to be a chronic weakness, and there have been some injuries. On the other hand the DL is strong, the secondary depth (and speed) is improved, Uche has developed as a complementary edge rusher to Judon.
The offense has been a dumpster fire with all sorts of obvious culprits, ranging from the QB, to personnel more generally, to poor coaching on that side of the ball, to some injuries. At some level, BB owns a lot of that failure. Can you look at this offense and say BB the personnel guy/assembler of offensive coaching staff doesn't deserve a massive share of the blame?
Assuming he stays, what do the next few years realistically bring?
The defense has been, at worst, good this year. Maybe better than its personnel? There's no legit #1 CB, inside LB continues to be a chronic weakness, and there have been some injuries. On the other hand the DL is strong, the secondary depth (and speed) is improved, Uche has developed as a complementary edge rusher to Judon.
The offense has been a dumpster fire with all sorts of obvious culprits, ranging from the QB, to personnel more generally, to poor coaching on that side of the ball, to some injuries. At some level, BB owns a lot of that failure. Can you look at this offense and say BB the personnel guy/assembler of offensive coaching staff doesn't deserve a massive share of the blame?
Assuming he stays, what do the next few years realistically bring?
Can we please please please have a new OC well as a new OL Coach next year? Is that too much to ask?
Beating Sheila’s record is only good if BB has a couple of good seasons to get there; otherwise Fish fans will snidely say he backed into it. Need to beat that f**ker convincingly.
I'm not firing Belichick, but I've reached the point in which I consider the possibility the team could improve/head into a better direction when he hangs it up, and I never really thought that before. I've always imagined Bill retiring as this "oooohh boy, we're fucked now" event and now I don't know, if Bill's done two years from now and they land, say, Sean Payton not only am I likely not overly concerned I might even be excited.
The Krafts are in a tough spot, because the same assistant coaching ineptitude that has us questioning BB hanging on also means the Pats would need an entire page turn with the player personnel and coaching departments. I think their hope was this era would roll into Bill retiring voluntary while successful with a McDaniels or other *good* assistant taking the reins. Now they may need to compound one tough decision (letting go of BB) with another impossible decision of selecting a new figurehead from outside the organization. Who the fans would be verrrry patient with after the excellence we've seen the past few decades, I'm sure.
I watch a lot of NFL, and Bill is still one of the best coaches in the league.
However, his offensive approach post-Brady has been a failure. He clearly wasn’t prepared for Josh to leave, his FA splurge was largely a bust, his OL decisions have been bad, and it’s somehow all getting worse.
He needs to clean house on that side of the ball.
However, his offensive approach post-Brady has been a failure. He clearly wasn’t prepared for Josh to leave, his FA splurge was largely a bust, his OL decisions have been bad, and it’s somehow all getting worse.
He needs to clean house on that side of the ball.