Let's say BB stays on until he retires. What does that mean for the franchise?

[ObstructedView]

It's not really knee-jerk at this point. The team is 2-4. They went 7-9 last year. They closed the 2019 season 2-4. They've been mediocre-to-bad for nearly two full seasons now.

I get it, and I don't really question whether the thread should exist. But it wasn't started after they barely eked out a win over a horrific Texans team that outplayed them for 2/3 of the game; it was started after a gut-punch loss at the hands of a highly talented non-conference Dallas team that's looking like a legitimate juggernaut. For all of my frustration yesterday about some of the play-calling and the inability to generate a consistent pass rush, I actually came out of that game feeling better about the team because Mac continues to emerge, the tight ends are getting more involved, there's at least a hint of playmaking at WR, and I expect them to continue to open up the offense - especially if the O-line gets healthy. The defense is still a mess, but they're generating turnovers (which do count; just ask the Cowboys) and I still hold out some hope that they'll figure things out.

I'll also point out that many on this board and elsewhere expected this team to be very good this season based on the underlying roster and the moves they made during the offseason, even with a rookie QB - so that makes me skeptical of some of the arm-chair general managing. It's of course fair to argue that a better-drafting team wouldn't have to rely on big free-agent signings.

 

[BaseballJones]

Here’s an encouraging article that sheds some helpful perspective.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/10/18/new-england-patriots-poised-break-out-overtime-loss-cowboys-bill-belichick

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

BB is 9-15 over his last 24 games. That record gets coaches fired. The team continues to make stupid, idiotic mistakes week after week and finding ways to lose games to teams good and bad. You know who used to do that? The fucking Chargers. And we mocked them for that mercilessly.

He is coaching like it's still 2003: play conservative on offense, run the ball a lot, and trust a good defense to win them games. But the game is no longer played like that, the rules have changed, and such an approach looks prehistoric today. If he can't or won't adjust to take the training wheels of Mac and trust the QB he drafted to win some games then it's fair to ask if BB is the right coach for this rebuild. So far the answer appears to be "no."

If you're not going to trust Mac to get a short 1st down in OT then why the hell did you draft a rookie QB in the first place? If you're never going to give your rookie QB a chance to make plays then you shouldn't be playing him at all. You can't be playing not to lose.

 

[streeter88]

Here’s an encouraging article that sheds some helpful perspective.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/10/18/new-england-patriots-poised-break-out-overtime-loss-cowboys-bill-belichick

I wondered a little bit about that as well. This is a very angry board today; speaking only for myself I almost felt betrayed they weren’t able to pull out the win, but if we’re objective that would have been a BIG upset the way the Cowboys have been playing.

Be interested in @SMU_Sox take on that throw Mac made… watching that live, my heart was in my throat. Gutsy throw, but skillful as well? Lucky? Or a bit of both?

 

[BaseballJones]

BB is 9-15 over his last 24 games. That record gets coaches fired.

That record doesn't get a coach fired when that coach has had a 20-year stretch of unparalleled success in the NFL and is clearly in a rebuild, having drafted what looks like the next franchise QB.

Kraft understands what's going on here.

 

[jsinger121]

That record doesn't get a coach fired when that coach has had a 20-year stretch of unparalleled success in the NFL and is clearly in a rebuild, having drafted what looks like the next franchise QB.

Kraft understands what's going on here.

It will get the Chuck Noll treatment but the question you have to ask yourself is do want the 1980s version of Noll to happen with BB and the Patriots which is was essentially mediocrity.

 

[BroodsSexton]

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1450050246839570437?s=20

Mike Reiss: Question (via @TheGregHillShow): 2 blocked punts in '21? Bill Belichick: "Neither of those plays should have been a problem. But we just didn't execute them well enough. Obviously we have to coach them better, and play them better...Haven't done anything differently than past."

BB's explanation was partly correct: going for it on 4th down and failing would have meant losing the game. BB's error was in not recognizing that punting the ball away would also have meant losing the game. At least going for it on 4th would have given them a chance.

This is a bad answer that shows a complete lack of situational awareness. He should get killed for that answer—and then the question is whether he learns from it, or whether he’s now just too set in his ways.

Now I feel worse about the Folk field goal try last week because it feels like the result of an analytical flaw, not that a correct analytical conclusion was reached.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

That record doesn't get a coach fired when that coach has had a 20-year stretch of unparalleled success in the NFL and is clearly in a rebuild, having drafted what looks like the next franchise QB.

Kraft understands what's going on here.

I hope he also understands that Belichick got badly outcoached by The Beav yesterday. Which is awful.

 

[BaseballJones]

It will get the Chuck Noll treatment but the question you have to ask yourself is do want the 1980s version of Noll to happen with BB and the Patriots which is was essentially mediocrity.

No of course nobody wants that. But rebuilding takes time. Too many people here are expecting the Patriots to lose the GOAT quarterback and completely rebuild back into a playoff team in like one season. That's asking way too much. This is a smart fan base but this expectation is wildly unrealistic. BB probably will be gone if they can't rebuild successfully in 3-4 years, but you can't expect a turnaround this fast. I mean it's technically possible but not realistic.

We should be grateful that the rebuild isn't such that the Patriots are a colossal disaster. (and they definitely are not that)

 

[BaseballJones]

I hope he also understands that Belichick got badly outcoached by The Beav yesterday. Which is awful.

BB has been outcoached in games before. He's the greatest but he's not infallible. Kraft also understands this. You should too.

 

[BigJimEd]

I think the thread isn't as inflammatory as the title suggests and no one in their right mind wants Bill gone or thinks he's completely lost it.

Most don't but there are a few in this thread who think Belichick needs to be gone.

I think some, here and elsewhere, have been waiting to call for Belichick's head. It's the Kellerman syndrome, so many can't wait to be the first to call it.

 

[cshea]

The Cowboys had 10 drives in regulation. 8 of them ended in FG range. The only defensive stops were the 4th and 1 on the first series and the 3 and out on the first series of the 3rd quarter.

The field was short all day, Bill.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Most don't but there are a few in this thread who think Belichick needs to be gone.

I think some, here and elsewhere, have been waiting to call for Belichick's head. It's the Kellerman syndrome, so many can't wait to be the first to call it.

Bad news for them is some started here in 2009, so they are 12 years behind. Brady was cooked, too, as I recall.

 

[BigJimEd]

Bad news for them is some started here in 2009, so they are 12 years behind. Brady was cooked, too, as I recall.

Very true. Both have been cooked at various points over the past 20 years.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I hope he also understands that Belichick got badly outcoached by The Beav yesterday. Which is awful.

Ok so was he outcoached, or was Dallas just a more talented team because of Bill's shitty drafts. Hard to thread the needle here that it's both.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

BB has been outcoached in games before. He's the greatest but he's not infallible. Kraft also understands this. You should too.

But basically it's a very bad sign. McCarthy is an AWFUL coach. He couldn't even win with Rodgers. Getting outcoached by him should essentially never happen. No one ever claimed that BB was infallible but his coaching decisions yesterday were inexplicably terrible.

 

[lexrageorge]

No of course nobody wants that. But rebuilding takes time. Too many people here are expecting the Patriots to lose the GOAT quarterback and completely rebuild back into a playoff team in like one season. That's asking way too much. This is a smart fan base but this expectation is wildly unrealistic. BB probably will be gone if they can't rebuild successfully in 3-4 years, but you can't expect a turnaround this fast. I mean it's technically possible but not realistic.

We should be grateful that the rebuild isn't such that the Patriots are a colossal disaster. (and they definitely are not that)

Bingo. Nobody wants to hear the term "bridge year", but that's exactly what we have. Nobody wanted to hear that term on last season's Celtics team (despite it being glaringly obvious based on the moves the team made), nor on last season's Red Sox team (or even this season's, which just proves that sometimes bridge years go better than expected).

The team needs a series of strong drafts; no more Isaiah Wynn's or N'Keal Harry's. That is 100% on Bill; there may be some gems in this the 2021 draft, and it's still too early to judge the 2020 draft as well. I agree that the their draft position over time has indeed hurt them; every single team has gone through a rough patch, even the so-called "vaunted" franchises. And the NFL's arbitrary penalties hurt as well. But there is a chance to reset on that front. I do hope they are looking at how they do evaluate players in the draft; it is time to accept that the positional needs have changed, especially when it comes to the linebackers.

Coaches don't usually lose their jobs starting 2-4 after going 7-9 the prior season. We have a long way to go before that happens.

But basically it's a very bad sign. McCarthy is an AWFUL coach. He couldn't even win with Rodgers. Getting outcoached by him should essentially never happen. No one ever claimed that BB was infallible but his coaching decisions yesterday were inexplicably terrible.

The only coaching decisions that I can pin on Bill was the OT punt and the horribly executed punt late in the 2nd quarter. The latter was a mistake that all teams make from time to time; the former is inexcusable.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

No of course nobody wants that. But rebuilding takes time. Too many people here are expecting the Patriots to lose the GOAT quarterback and completely rebuild back into a playoff team in like one season. That's asking way too much. This is a smart fan base but this expectation is wildly unrealistic. BB probably will be gone if they can't rebuild successfully in 3-4 years, but you can't expect a turnaround this fast. I mean it's technically possible but not realistic.

We should be grateful that the rebuild isn't such that the Patriots are a colossal disaster. (and they definitely are not that)

They don't have time.

BB is 69 years old. How long can they wait to rebuild with him at this age? Performance goes down with age and it's pretty clear that his extreme conservatism in decision-making isn't going to stop any time soon. If they were going to get this turned around this year you'd be fine with that as 69 isn't a death sentence. But if it takes 3-4 years to rebuild, do you really want a 72 year old running the show? No, you do not.

Thus is goes back to the original question as to whether Belichick is the guy that should be leading the rebuild.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Bingo. Nobody wants to hear the term "bridge year", but that's exactly what we have.

Last year was the bridge year. With the money they spent this offseason, this year was supposed to be good again.

 

[Jungleland]

Last year's team looked decent outside of QB and WR, and it's hard to watch them get better play at both of those positions and keep losing. Especially when 3 of the 4 losses can be blamed on uncharacteristically dumb mistakes (fumbles) or cowardice on the play calling side. That said, the talent discrepancy between this team and the best teams (two of which they have played) is real, and that is far more on the drafting than on the free agent class. It wouldn't be the first time in 21 years that Bill's drafting fast ball is called into question, and rightly so. But because of that I think it's early to quit on him as a coach. I actually think they've had what appear to be decent gameplans for every week so far - I just don't understand the sloppiness and conservatism at all.

 

[Branfordite Sox]

No of course nobody wants that. But rebuilding takes time. Too many people here are expecting the Patriots to lose the GOAT quarterback and completely rebuild back into a playoff team in like one season. That's asking way too much. This is a smart fan base but this expectation is wildly unrealistic. BB probably will be gone if they can't rebuild successfully in 3-4 years, but you can't expect a turnaround this fast. I mean it's technically possible but not realistic.

We should be grateful that the rebuild isn't such that the Patriots are a colossal disaster. (and they definitely are not that)

I think people underestimated Brady a little bit. Not his skill because everyone's obviously aware he's the GOAT, but what his presence meant for the team and roster. He was remarkably consistent, limited turnovers, adaptable to a wide variety of players/offenses and was ridiculously tough. I always thought these things contributed to him being the dynastic QB over someone like Rogers and his other peers as much, if not more than, any skill gap.

Bill's conservative tendencies and roster building deserve some talk because we've seen it for awhile now. But from the games we have seen this year, I'm more on the side of things that as a coach he's still preparing his team and keeping them competitive with much more talented teams. And frankly, I'm not ready to see him go and rather see him get a long leash, anyway.

 

[j44thor]

But basically it's a very bad sign. McCarthy is an AWFUL coach. He couldn't even win with Rodgers. Getting outcoached by him should essentially never happen. No one ever claimed that BB was infallible but his coaching decisions yesterday were inexplicably terrible.

He wasn't outcoached by McCarthy, that is the hottest of hot takes. In fact McCarthy basically had one coaching moment and it was as dumb as it could possibly be when he waited until there was 2 seconds on the play clock and 8 seconds in the half before using his final TO on a 3rd down which allowed the Pats to then kneel to kill the clock.

DAL is vastly superior on talent on the OL, WR, RB, QB, and at worst a wash defensively. McCarthy did nothing from a coaching perspective, Joe from the 3rd row could have coached that team to victory.

 

[Hoya81]

Last year was the bridge year. With the money they spent this offseason, this year was supposed to be good again.

I think that calculus changed slowly but with the Edelman retirement, Gilmore’s holdout, moving Michel and naming Mac as the QB, its easier to see a transition year as the most likely outcome than a playoff run.

 

[GreyisGone]

Last year was the bridge year. With the money they spent this offseason, this year was supposed to be good again.

Look, I think we all expected more from their defense and o-line but they are starting a rookie QB. This was never going to be a Championship year. The real question is how much progress they show the back half of the year to set up real expectations for next season.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Look, I think we all expected more from their defense and o-line but they are starting a rookie QB. This was never going to be a Championship year. The real question is how much progress they show the back half of the year to set up real expectations for next season.

I didn't expect a championship year either. I did expect a decent-to-good one. 10-7 or something like that seemed reasonable.

They're nowhere close to that.

 

[Silverdude2167]

How is anyone saying BB got out-coached yesterday?
He was a 3rd and 25 stop away from winning the game with a team that is much less talanted at the majority of positions.

 

[Ed Hillel]

The team needs a series of strong drafts; no more Isaiah Wynn's or N'Keal Harry's. That is 100% on Bill.

Wynn looks like bad luck to me. He was a good player before all these injuries. Torn achilles for OL are often the death knell, regardless of age.

 

[tims4wins]

He also took a knee at the end of the first half with well over a minute left and a timeout. He clearly doesn’t trust Mac and it isn’t working.

Maybe it is working though - just not how we want it to work. Seems like BB is trying to give the team the best chance to be in the game all the way through 60 minutes. Problem is they haven't finished, so it may be time to change tack and get more aggressive.

But I'm with others who think that improvement is going to come, soon. They seemingly have fixed their red zone offense issues. The line is slowly getting healthier. They need the secondary to get healthier too.

And frankly he might have even been coaxed into taking Jones at 15. You know he was probably itching to take a nose tackle at 15.

Just for the record, he did take the first DL in the entire draft, but it was in the 40s. I know the joke you're trying to make, but BB played that really well. And Barmore looks like a keeper. He has showed more in 6 games than Malcom Brown did his entire four years.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

How is anyone saying BB got out-coached yesterday?
He was a 3rd and 25 stop away from winning the game with a team that is much less talanted at the majority of positions.

Allowing 24 yards on a 3rd in 25 is a bad coaching job.
Punting on 4th and 1 in OT at midfield with a gassed defense is a terrible coaching job.
Punting 4 times on 4th and very short leading directly to three immediate Dallas scores is a bad coaching decision.

And there's this:

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1450078194531459077?s=20


And it's doubly bizarre because they didn't run all that many offensive plays. They were unprepared.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I agree but I still think you have to go for it in OT. The defense is not only gassed but haven’t been effective in 3 drives. Each drive they moved the ball at least 50 yards and either scored or attempted a FG. I do think Bill has lost his aggressiveness and even though he has reason to do that it’s been sliding for years even with Brady and in close games the cowardly coach usually is punished with a loss. At some point, and hopefully soon, he needs to start trusting the offense to convert these 4th and manageables.

When you're playing a more talented team that really has outplayed you for about 50 minutes and somehow you're still in a position to win the game, you have to be aggressive. This isn't 2016, you don't extend the game, you don't rely on Brady to eventually come through, there are games you'll have to steal now, so go and grab them. If Mac Jones has shown anything in his short career is the ability to consistently hit a 4 yard pass. If you don't trust him with that, what are we doing?

If Doug Pederson coached the 2017 Super Bowl the way Bill has approached this season, the Pats beat the Eagles 45-21.

I would have gone for it too but I think its a lot closer than you guys are making out.

First of all, the offense stunk on 3rd and manageable all night. We started the second half with drives ending on 3rd and 2, 1, 4 and had just failed on 3rd and 3 on a very low percentage throw. Its not about Mac being able to hit a 4 yard pass in the abstract, in the entire universe of possible 4 yard pass plays, its about the offense being able to execute in a high leverage spot when the defense is going to throw that pressure look at Mac and the Oline they've been saving all game and execution is going to require Mac to read it, the o line to pick up the blitz, and some doofus like Agholor to make the right sight adjustment. What is the chance we actually pick that up, especially given how the o line had been playing all game? Maybe 25-30%?

Then even if you pick it up, you're still at midfield running an offense that had picked up more than one first one down on only one of its last eight drives (there was also the one play TD drive but that was pretty freaky). And even if you manage to move the ball a bit more and get a FG, you're still putting that gassed defense back out onto the field to stop a Cowboys team that now will be playing with four downs all drive and might even be pretty aggressive in FG range because a tie doesn't help them much.

Again, I would have gone for it but I don't think the win equity difference is very big. People are focusing on the gassed defense and why wasn't it so obvious to Bill that they'd struggle to get a stop, which is fair, but you also need to flip the coin and understand that we have a shitty offense that was highly, highly likely to fail on that play and, even if it succeeded, very unlikely to go score a TD.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Wynn looks like bad luck to me. He was a good player before all these injuries. Torn achilles for OL are often the death knell, regardless of age.

Yeah I think Wynn is done as a decent player. He looks awful. Shaping up to be another bust, sadly.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Allowing 24 yards on a 3rd in 25 is a bad coaching job.
Punting on 4th and 1 in OT at midfield with a gassed defense is a terrible coaching job.
Punting 4 times on 4th and very short leading directly to three immediate Dallas scores is a bad coaching decision.

And there's this:

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1450078194531459077?s=20


And it's doubly bizarre because they didn't run all that many offensive plays. They were unprepared.

You clearly think the team is not good and yet they almost beat a good Cowboys team.

How do you square the above with the idea that BB was outcoached by McCarthy?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You clearly think the team is not good and yet they almost beat a good Cowboys team.

How do you square the above with the idea that BB was outcoached by McCarthy?

You are wrong, and I have argued with others about the talent level. I do think the team has talent, and a good deal of it. Coaching and conservative play calling are absolutely killing them.

I do not count almost-wins as anything at all. They are losses. Bad teams lose games. Period. Doesn't matter who the opponent is, or the margin.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Allowing 24 yards on a 3rd in 25 is a bad coaching job.

Unfortunately, the play was made in the middle of the field, so there was no way for BB or any of the other coaches to run out there and break up the pass.

 

[Silverdude2167]

You are wrong, and I have argued with others about the talent level. I do think the team has talent, and a good deal of it. Coaching and conservative play calling are absolutely killing them.

I do not count almost-wins as anything at all. They are losses. Bad teams lose games. Period. Doesn't matter who the opponent is, or the margin.

So you are saying that you think a different coach would do better with this team than BB?

What coaches would you take over BB right now would be my question then?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Unfortunately, the play was made in the middle of the field, so there was no way for BB or any of the other coaches to run out there and break up the pass.

They rushed 3. Gave Dak all day to throw. Schemed up something that failed miserably. You cannot allow that to happen under any circumstances. The lack of ability to come up with the big stop has been a major issue with the defense all season. We saw it in the Miami game, the NO game, and the Tampa game. We saw it again yesterday. With the game on the line they fail. Constantly.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Do teams in the NFL have 3-4 year re-building periods? BB has credibility that most coaches don't have, but I'm struggling to remember a situation where a team took 3-4 years to re-build and the coach survived multiple losing seasons. Last year was clearly a bridge year and cap re-set year, this year they were supposed to have a solid roster with rookie growing pains at QB. But assuming Jones was the right guy they should be showing improvement as the year goes along, with the hope of being a playoff contender no later than next year. That's still possible, of course, but I'd say the talent on both sides of the ball isn't where I thought it would be.

 

[4 6 3 DP]

I think the loyalty to Josh McDaniels who at this point I think it's pretty obvious was entirely a product of Brady (I'd argue he held Brady back but I think McDaniels is god awful and I have to account for my bias there) is BB's biggest issue right now. I know they scored 29. But the offensive playcalling continues to make no sense. Brandon Bolden being the third down back, no sense, They were second and 5 in OT and the reason we are asking about 4th/3 is that the next two play calls were terrible. He's probably a decent QB development guy - I don't know that, but Cassel became competent and Jimmy G was solid so I could see him managing the development of Mac Jones, but he should not be calling plays.

To BB I'll say this - for 19 years this team was usually the one who capitalized when the other team did stupid nonsensical stuff. The Charger stuff as was said above. TB12 leaves and now we do the same crap. At some point is it Belichick's Patriot Way or the QB? I'm not talking talent, I mean just the moronic stuff this team is now doing that "coincidentally" didn't happen when Tom was the QB.

We've beaten NYJ and Houston and lost to everyone else. So that's who they are and whether we are the early 90's Celtics or Noll Steelers, I think we know BB is going to get to finish on his terms as he deserves to. But the roster needs a pretty good enema.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Last year's team looked decent outside of QB and WR, and it's hard to watch them get better play at both of those positions and keep losing. Especially when 3 of the 4 losses can be blamed on uncharacteristically dumb mistakes (fumbles) or cowardice on the play calling side. That said, the talent discrepancy between this team and the best teams (two of which they have played) is real, and that is far more on the drafting than on the free agent class. It wouldn't be the first time in 21 years that Bill's drafting fast ball is called into question, and rightly so. But because of that I think it's early to quit on him as a coach. I actually think they've had what appear to be decent gameplans for every week so far - I just don't understand the sloppiness and conservatism at all.

I agree with the rest of your post but this just isn't true. They were 23rd in offensive DVOA and 26th in defensive DVOA last year. The defense was not a good unit whatsoever.

The talent just isn't there. Not only did the well of new talent run dry, but the older once-elite players like Gilmore, High, and McCourty who we relied on heavily in the 2018-2020 period are either gone or shadows of their former selves.

2020 draft class still could pan out decently and 2021 looks very promising. We need to build on that with 1-3 more good draft/FA cycles and then we can talk about a team that has lots of talent but somehow isn't living up to expectations. This is just the normal life cycle of an NFL team that's not being sprinkled with Brady/BB pixie dust. Even elite franchises like Baltimore and Pittsburgh go through these 2-4 year downspells where they just don't have the talent to be more than a 500 team.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I agree with the rest of your post but this just isn't true. They were 23rd in offensive DVOA and 26th in defensive DVOA last year. The defense was not a good unit whatsoever.

The talent just isn't there. Not only did the well of new talent run dry, but the older once-elite players like Gilmore, High, and McCourty who we relied on heavily in the 2018-2020 period are either gone or shadows of their former selves.

2020 draft class still could pan out decently and 2021 looks very promising. We need to build on that with 1-3 more good draft/FA cycles and then we can talk about a team that has lots of talent but somehow isn't living up to expectations. This is just the normal life cycle of an NFL team that's not being sprinkled with Brady/BB pixie dust. Even elite franchises like Baltimore and Pittsburgh go through these 2-4 year downspells where they just don't have the talent to be more than a 500 team.

It's also worth questioning if Nepotism Steve should be the guy calling the defensive plays. I know he's more meme than man right now, but ye Gods there's nothing there to indicate he's good at the job except for his last name.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Do teams in the NFL have 3-4 year re-building periods? BB has credibility that most coaches don't have, but I'm struggling to remember a situation where a team took 3-4 years to re-build and the coach survived multiple losing seasons. Last year was clearly a bridge year and cap re-set year, this year they were supposed to have a solid roster with rookie growing pains at QB. But assuming Jones was the right guy they should be showing improvement as the year goes along, with the hope of being a playoff contender no later than next year. That's still possible, of course, but I'd say the talent on both sides of the ball isn't where I thought it would be.

The Ravens under Harbaugh missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and went through a five years stretch making it only once.

The Steelers have missed the playoffs two years in a row twice under Mike Tomlin.

I think Pats fans just have unreasonable expectations. We're not a magical franchise. We did amazing things because we had the GOAT QB, GOAT coach, and multiple other Hall of Famers. Now we only have the GOAT coach.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

The Ravens under Harbaugh missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and went through a five years stretch making it only once.

The Steelers have missed the playoffs two years in a row twice under Mike Tomlin.

I think Pats fans just have unreasonable expectations. We're not a magical franchise. We did amazing things because we had the GOAT QB, GOAT coach, and multiple other Hall of Famers. Now we only have the GOAT coach.

And even the last year they had the GOAT QB they were not a great team by the end of the season.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

It's also worth questioning if Nepotism Steve should be the guy calling the defensive plays. I know he's more meme than man right now, but ye Gods there's nothing there to indicate he's good at the job except for his last name.

Yeah, I do agree with this. I don't feel like I know enough to kill the guy but any time you have that kind of nepotism hire you have to wonder.

Frankly, I think the smarter move for BB would have been to try to use his coaching network to get Steve a job somewhere else.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

The Ravens under Harbaugh missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and went through a five years stretch making it only once.

The Steelers have missed the playoffs two years in a row twice under Mike Tomlin.

I think Pats fans just have unreasonable expectations. We're not a magical franchise. We did amazing things because we had the GOAT QB, GOAT coach, and multiple other Hall of Famers. Now we only have the GOAT coach.

That's fair. In my head those two franchises are always solid but of course I don't watch their games as closely as I watch the Pats.

 

[gammoseditor]

Is anyone suggesting Bill should be fired? Or is it just dancing around the issue without taking a stance?

From 2015-2019 this team went to 4 Super Bowls and won 3. Any other coach/gym would be considered one of the best of all time for that stretch alone except Bill already had that designation if he retired in 2014. That run ended all of 2 seasons ago.

2020 they went for it and the combination of choices from that year and several years before put them in cap jail last year. Like a lot of posters I was hoping this year would be different. But we’ve lost some close games to some good teams and one to a bad team. We are missing nearly our entire line, starting a rookie QB, and have a core group that’s never played together. This shouldn’t be shocking and firing Bill isn’t the answer.

 

[Hoya81]

Do teams in the NFL have 3-4 year re-building periods? BB has credibility that most coaches don't have, but I'm struggling to remember a situation where a team took 3-4 years to re-build and the coach survived multiple losing seasons. Last year was clearly a bridge year and cap re-set year, this year they were supposed to have a solid roster with rookie growing pains at QB. But assuming Jones was the right guy they should be showing improvement as the year goes along, with the hope of being a playoff contender no later than next year. That's still possible, of course, but I'd say the talent on both sides of the ball isn't where I thought it would be.

After beating the 49ers, Harbaugh and the Ravens went 40-40 until they drafted Jackson in 2018.
Payton had 3 straight 7-9 years with Brees still performing at a high level.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Is anyone suggesting Bill should be fired? Or is it just dancing around the issue without taking a stance?

I started the thread and am not suggesting he be fired.

Much as there wasn't a track record of success for QBs in their 40s, there isn't really one for coaches in their 70s. I think BB is less good as an NFL head coach today than he was a decade ago, for example.

 

[SMU_Sox]

The Athletic pod opens up talking about the game and how the Cowboys attacked the Pats defense. Kellen Moore schemed and called a hell of a game and Dak and an excellent offensive team just executed it near flawlessly. Pats dropped more guys because that is a strategy they’ve used to frustrate Brady and Mahomes before in the recent past. The problem is that they usually get some pressure and in this game got none and Dak broke contain anyway. The Cowboys also gave them a ton of looks they hadn’t put on tape before that attacked their specific coverage rules and then had the time for guys to eventually get open. Until the final drive the Pats held them to 2.2 points per drive which was below their season rate of 2.9. So in a lot of ways even though the Cowboys got yards on them the strategy worked. And then… a gassed and banged up defense (half the team exited the game at some point) couldn’t hold up. That to me was what made the 4th and 3 punt so indefensible. Your D is running on fumes and banged up. They the Cowboys in check but had nothing left in the tank and Bill punted anyway.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think the loyalty to Josh McDaniels who at this point I think it's pretty obvious was entirely a product of Brady (I'd argue he held Brady back but I think McDaniels is god awful and I have to account for my bias there) is BB's biggest issue right now. I know they scored 29. But the offensive playcalling continues to make no sense. Brandon Bolden being the third down back, no sense, They were second and 5 in OT and the reason we are asking about 4th/3 is that the next two play calls were terrible. He's probably a decent QB development guy - I don't know that, but Cassel became competent and Jimmy G was solid so I could see him managing the development of Mac Jones, but he should not be calling plays.

To BB I'll say this - for 19 years this team was usually the one who capitalized when the other team did stupid nonsensical stuff. The Charger stuff as was said above. TB12 leaves and now we do the same crap. At some point is it Belichick's Patriot Way or the QB? I'm not talking talent, I mean just the moronic stuff this team is now doing that "coincidentally" didn't happen when Tom was the QB.

We've beaten NYJ and Houston and lost to everyone else. So that's who they are and whether we are the early 90's Celtics or Noll Steelers, I think we know BB is going to get to finish on his terms as he deserves to. But the roster needs a pretty good enema.

I think there is zero evidence of this, Josh got top half passing offenses out of Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow. He's a good coordinator, he's universally considered one of the better ones. We have had a dearth of offensive talent for several years. If I have one complaint against Josh it's that he isn't comfortable with RPO concepts, but overall, our issues aren't that Josh is a bad playcaller, it's that we have a very limited offense. There is not a single offensive position I would say we are clearly above league average except maybe TE. We have league average or worse RBs, league average or worse O-Line, below average WRs, and a below average QB.... that's why the offense is bad. Even in Brady's last year, the talent was slim.

 

[BaseballJones]

They don't have time.

BB is 69 years old. How long can they wait to rebuild with him at this age? Performance goes down with age and it's pretty clear that his extreme conservatism in decision-making isn't going to stop any time soon. If they were going to get this turned around this year you'd be fine with that as 69 isn't a death sentence. But if it takes 3-4 years to rebuild, do you really want a 72 year old running the show? No, you do not.

Thus is goes back to the original question as to whether Belichick is the guy that should be leading the rebuild.

At 72, BB will still be the best coach in the league. He seems to have plenty of energy still. So yes, they have time. I mean, maybe YOU don't have the patience for this, but that's an issue with you.